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Feminism and BDSM - 7/15/2005 7:29:30 PM   
pleasureforHim


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Is there any place in BDSM for feminism? (Is there any place for feminism, period?) i grew up not wearing a bra, expecting the Equal Rights Amendment to pass; etc. i believed then, and still do, in certain precepts of the feminist movement: the inherent dignity of each person irrespective of sex; equal pay for equal work (which remains illusory); decent child care at affordable rates; enforcable child custody and child supprt laws, and so forth.

At some point i stopped subscribing to the National Organization of Women when issues such as the use of the word "history" were elevated to real discussion. i just could not connect with the agenda anymore; it seemed to me the organization had been hijacked and had fled to ivory towers and other places where my realities were of no consequence.

i still feel NOW is irrelevant and refused their kind offer of a bumper sticker not long ago, but the fundamental precepts of feminism have never left me. Yet somehow i have no problem reconciling them with my search for a Dom or Master, or my identity as a submissive woman.

Anyone else have an opinion?

pleasureforHim


< Message edited by pleasureforHim -- 7/16/2005 7:18:16 AM >
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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/15/2005 8:32:54 PM   
onceburned


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Choice.

Feminism is about choice. The freedom and opportunity to live life as you choose, not as others expect you to do.

If your choice is to be a submissive/slave... more power to you!

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/15/2005 10:51:13 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


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Ditto what Chris said :)

The minute you tell me I shouldn't do something because I am a female is the moment you take away feminism.

This includes telling me I shouldn't be true to myself as a slave.

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/15/2005 11:26:50 PM   
perverseangelic


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Ditto what Emerald and Chris said. Feminism, to me, is about giving -all- individuals free choice over their lives regardless of their genders. That includes the right to give up authority.

I am a rabid feminist. This means I have the choice to give my life to my partner. Anwyone who tells me I cannot submit because in order to further women's rights I must work/be a CEO/not have children/not cook dinner/eat peas with a fork etc is denying my my right as a -human- to choose the destination of my life.

Being told I -cannot- submit because I am a woman is, to me, just as bad as being told I -must- submit becaues I am a woman.

quote:


At some point i stopped subscribing to the National Organization of Women when issues such as the use of the word "history" were elevated to real discussion. i just could not connect with the agenda anymore; it seemed to me the organization had been hijacked and had fled to ivory towers and other places where my realities were of no consequence.


To me, these are still things that need to be discussed. I believe that the ideology behind our society, including ideology of language, needs to undergo changes, and that changes can't begin untill we study and examine those issues. I think the gendered nature of language is something that needs to be remedied before gender equality can progress, up to and including creating a non-gendered pronoun for cases where gender is unknown, irrelevant, or non-male/female.

I think that in some ways modern feminism has disconected with the march-in-the-streets roots, but that the work being done by theorists and critics is important in a different way.

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/15/2005 11:48:02 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

Is there any place in BDSM for feminism?


You'll find a ton of it in lesbian/dyke bdsm literature, among other places. MaitresseEden would be a good person to chime in on this thread.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/16/2005 12:09:31 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Exactly, but what makes that literature (or some of it, anyway) so controversial is precisely that it involves lesbian BDSM. Many of the early radicals who made BDSM part and parcel of their feminist philosophy would have had a hard time accepting heterosexual BDSM--especially male dom/fem sub--into their comfy framework.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

You'll find a ton of it in lesbian/dyke bdsm literature, among other places.


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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/16/2005 6:29:09 AM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Exactly, but what makes that literature (or some of it, anyway) so controversial is precisely that it involves lesbian BDSM. Many of the early radicals who made BDSM part and parcel of their feminist philosophy would have had a hard time accepting heterosexual BDSM--especially male dom/fem sub--into their comfy framework.

Lam

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

You'll find a ton of it in lesbian/dyke bdsm literature, among other places.



Ah but therein lays the difference between plain old lesbian literature and bdsm/dyke lesbian literature. The majority of lesbians have a really hard time with bdsm. That is why I said lesbian/dyke bdsm literature.

I dated a Top in my mid 20s for 2 years. She was the cutest androgynous woman. I called her Syr. So we were in fact recreating a lot of the male dom/fem sub identity. I know a lot of girl-girl couples that recreate a similar dynamic.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/16/2005 7:09:33 AM   
MaitresseEden


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Please take the time to read this link, explaining the different types of feminism.

http://www.colostate.edu/Depts/Speech/rccs/theory84.htm

I will chime in later, don't have time to devote to a quality response at the moment.

Ms.Eden

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/16/2005 7:36:53 AM   
pleasureforHim


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[
i]Thank You, MaitresseEden; the link was great. i would put myself in the catagories of "Socialist Feminist" and "Liberal Feminist". LOL; and a card-carrying Republican (who hates Bush). And a submissive woman. i would like to continue working in politics after i am with my One, i think, but perhaps not. i have lost ground, physically, and may not have the strength left to do so. i missed the last presidentail campaign cycle altogether -- a first for me in many years. Howver, i prefer state and local campaings, anyway. Change is so much easier to effectuate on that level. Ohio's Govenor Taft (another Republican i hate) is carrying on a budgetary war against women, amoung other groups, as the state spirals into bankruptcy because -- low and behold -- the tobacco litigation award was a one time infusion of capital and was used to fund recurring expenses such as education.

Thank You again, Ma'am..

pleasureforHim

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/17/2005 9:21:55 PM   
MaitresseEden


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The key to understanding "Feminism", the woman's movement, or even the man's movement. (yes they have one) is to understand socialize behavior. Which I have someone in the archieves posted at length on the subject, perhaps one of the more diligent searchers can find it.

However in a nutshell, society dictates and oft time mandates specific roles and expectations for an individual based solely on thier biology or genitalia at birth, It all begins when the doctor says "Its a girl" or It's a boy. From that moment forth, expectations are placed on individuals to behave in manners which are congruent to what society says they should. Girls are nutured with the goal of life being marriage, and children, and even our nursery rymes state they should be sweet, and docile. Boys are raised to think they must supress thier emotions if they are to be a man, and so on and so forth (My other post was more detailed) Nothing is wrong with wanting anyof these things. Feminism, or any equality based movements simply asked that those who do not wish to behave as socialized be respected for doing so.

Some would say being a submissive female is actually being what society says you should be and not " radical" in any way. Others would argue that being a openly masochistic female is not. The key to understanding feminism and how it relates to BDSM in my opinion is understanding that you have the right to control your body and what happens to it, you have the right to seek out your pleasure, however it is achieved. For me personally I can not be submissive because the feminist in me refuses to allow another to have that right. It has been too much of a fight to get it.

That does not mean that I am not very laid back, and sometime even catering to my lover, it means simply that I retain my voice, it is not for sale, rent, or even for loan.

However that is what is right for me, what is right for others is not the same. It is much easier to do what is expected, and to want what is expected, and there is NOTHING at all wrong with that. It is an individual choice. Feminism says" Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes".. and respect that not all woman want the same things, or desire the same choices. Here is a great article to read on woman's sexuality http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book/companion.asp?id=12&compID=10&page=2

Ms. Eden

_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/17/2005 9:29:33 PM   
LRODANDMASTER


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I DEFINATELY APPROVE OF FENIMISM IN BDSM BEACUSE I PERSONALLY LIKE FEMININE SUBS NOT MASCULINE ONES JUST MY PRESONAL PREFERENCE WICH I AM INTITLED TO

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LRODANDMASTER TYPE LIKE DUMASS BUT HIM NO DUMASS

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/17/2005 9:51:38 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
Ditto what Emerald and Chris said. Feminism, to me, is about giving -all- individuals free choice over their lives regardless of their genders. That includes the right to give up authority.

I am a rabid feminist. This means I have the choice to give my life to my partner. Anwyone who tells me I cannot submit because in order to further women's rights I must work/be a CEO/not have children/not cook dinner/eat peas with a fork etc is denying my my right as a -human- to choose the destination of my life.

I agree completely.
As long as no one is being subjugated against their will/desires, than feminism is working wonderfully.
I too reject the notion that feminism means I need to be more like men in (work more to social climb/forget reproducing) when being a woman is such a wonderful thing.
The not cooking part I can understand, lol. (the domina)M


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""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/17/2005 9:59:11 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaitresseEden
That does not mean that I am not very laid back, and sometime even catering to my lover, it means simply that I retain my voice, it is not for sale, rent, or even for loan.

However that is what is right for me, what is right for others is not the same. It is much easier to do what is expected, and to want what is expected, and there is NOTHING at all wrong with that. It is an individual choice. Feminism says" Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes".. and respect that not all woman want the same things, or desire the same choices.
Ms. Eden
Great Post Ms Eden, and I feel the same way..
Loved reading it, thanks. M


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a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/17/2005 10:12:25 PM   
SweetDommes


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This topic always makes me think of my mom and my aunt. Both went to college and had careers. My aunt had kids and expected my mom and grandmother to raise them while she continued with school and started working. My mom waited until later in life to have kids (my aunt had her first at 20 or so, and she is older than my mom, who had my older brother at almost 30) - and she quit working to raise us. My aunt repeatedly tried to tell my mom that it was "setting feminism back" that she had chosen to be a stay at home mom. My mom's reply was always "feminism is about having a choice - I chose to stay at home with my children just like you choose to have someone else raise yours."

I agree with those who have said that feminism is about having a choice. I have a choice about which role I take. I have a choice about a lot of things that I wouldn't have had 50 years ago ... if what someone else chooses is something that I would choose, well, who cares as long as they aren't trying to impose that choice on me as well.

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/17/2005 11:46:28 PM   
FirmFare


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I love you guys.. This is the best form of femenism I've witnessed to date. I'd almost given up on anything in femenism making sense.

I respect and support women working for equal pay for equal work. I respect women's rights to be heard and of course vote but until now, all I'd heard out of femenists is that all women should strive to match men in the work force, and in every other venue. Not leaving choice to women but demanding the equivalency of men's roles. Good thread! I'm all about freedom and equal opportunities for everyone.

Bob

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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/18/2005 7:43:04 AM   
MaitresseEden


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quote:

all I'd heard out of femenists is that all women should strive to match men in the work force, and in every other venue. Not leaving choice to women but demanding the equivalency of men's roles


Thanks FirmFare
Feminism wants woman to have equal access to things held in the arena of the "men's domain" Make no mistake, woman don't want to be Men, but we do want to be able to choose to do anything they do, and viceversa allow men the freedom to do whatever it is we do.

like any movemen, there will be radical extremeists. In the beginning of the femiinst movement (1st wave, we are now in the 3rd) Woman had no role models for anything other that subjects of the partriarchy so the naturally imitadated that group which was in power. Most did not like it, and in fact today you find that most feminists do not want to be like men, or no longer feel the need to emulate them in order to be considered as equals. When women entered the male dominant workforce they had to prove themselves and unfortunatly that was often done by being more male like. This condition still exists in some careers and to some degree today, Regardless, we should esteem and treasure those woman we know who are blazing the trails (still today) and choosing to live life on the road less travelled. They are raising the standarsa and bar for the generations to come.

One of the problems that arose when women entered the workforce is that they still had to maintain another job, that of housewife, which often had little or no value. In essence they worked two jobs and the man one. Modern day feminist seek to recognize the inequality that exists in that situation, and seek for understanding that all work has value, and that subjective tasks need not be limited on the basis of gender.

Below (slightly different topic but related) is something about the value of housewives. Ask yourself, if you earn your keep, or pay for your keeper.

Ms. Eden

Housewives .... how much are they worth?
3 July 2000
Reporter: Martin King


Homemakers have traditionally been an unrecognized and unrewarded workforce. What are their skills and time really worth?A recent Melbourne University study has calculated how much a homemaker would be worth according to the work undertaken.Professor Duncan Ironmonger and his team from the Household Research Unit asked three homemakers to keep diaries of their daily duties and then applied hourly rates to their various tasks.These tasks included child minding, cooking, cleaning, gardening, dog walking and chauffeuring.

For instance, for driving the children to activities a chauffeur would get paid $16.40/hour; for reading to the children in bed a child career would earn $16.80/hour, and for preparing dinner a kitchen hand would get $15.50/hour.Professor Ironmonger's team concluded that, using current wages as a guide, a homemaker's work would be worth about $64,000 per annum. Mary Crooks from the Victorian Women's Trust says it's about time stay-at-home mums got the recognition they deserve. "It's about cultural change, it's about recognizing that it's a legitimate economic activity," she says.


Housewives: their earning power
3 July 2000




Food and drink preparation and clean-up: $15.50 (Cost Per Hour)

Laundry, ironing etc: $15.10

Other housework eg.Cleaning and vacuuming: $14.90

Gardening, lawn and pool care: $14.40

Pet, animal care: $17.00

Home maintenance/improvement, car care: $17.70

Household paperwork, bills etc: $17.80

Transport and associated travel: $16.40

Child care: $16.80

Purchasing and associated travel: $16.20

Average mother's work time (in hours per week)



Domestic activities: 24.8

Child care: 18.1

Shopping: 7.0

Voluntary work: 2.0

Total Household Work: 51.9

Paid Work (full-time/part-time/casual): 12.8

Total all work: 64.7 hours per week


_____________________________

"If I didnt define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other peoples fantasies for me and eaten alive. - Audre Lorde"

(in reply to FirmFare)
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RE: Feminism and BDSM - 7/18/2005 7:49:21 AM   
pleasureforHim


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quote:

I DEFINATELY APPROVE OF FENIMISM IN BDSM BEACUSE I PERSONALLY LIKE FEMININE SUBS NOT MASCULINE ONES JUST MY PRESONAL PREFERENCE WICH I AM INTITLED TO

_____________________________

Disclaimer: The above was written by a kind man who does a very good job of impersonating a dumass. Don't take the poor bastard seriously.


Gee whiz, Lam..is that disclaimer absolutely necessary? LOL. Anyway; i am an "old school" feminist. Raise women and children out of poverty by enforcing child support awards. Increase the pay scale for child care workers, to attract a better class of workers for a precious position, and at the same time, underwrite some of the cost so a woman can afford to work and support her family. Equal pay for equal work. etc.

The absence of a ungendered pronoun (other than "it") in the english language does not move me; i apologise to those who feel language is a excellent methodology for social change. From my perspective, there is an emergency that must be dealt with. According to the U S Census Bureau, in 1999, 12.4% of children under age 18 lived in poverty; and 16.6 of children under age 5 lived in poverty. In fact, according to U S Census Bureau, no one in the US was more likely to live in poverty than an american child. Obviously, if the mothers of these children could obtain support from their fathers, the poverty levels would drop.

i would hold out, as an example, the child support enforcement arm of the Dept of Human Resources in Florida....which may or may not at this time have collected its first dime. That portion of state government has a shameful record and Govenor Jeb Bush and others have openly spoken of privitizing child support enforcement. The problem with that is, private agencies take a percent of current child support as they seek assets and such to achieve execution of back child support awards; then they take 33% or more of whatever back child support is collected. Women deserve governmental assistance which is effective and free.

i guess i see the bread and butter issues and not the ideological ones.

pleasureforHim

(in reply to FirmFare)
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