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RE: BDSM and Feminism - 10/2/2005 5:23:02 PM

Jasmyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOwner

quote:

KittenWithaTwist:

if you are a female dominant who owns male submissives, do you feel that that has anything to do with possible political/feminist motivations, such as, for instance, putting a man in an assumed "woman's" place?

Nope, but I still believe that the anal and cross-dressing stuff that many are into is about that.

My desire to be served has less to do with men and everything to do with myself...and besides why would I want to put a man in an 'assumed women's place' when I never believed in women having a 'place' as such.

I agree with ManOwner that a lot of cross-dressing, but I'll state 'forced feminisation' end of cross-dressing, getting rodgered by a strap-on etc, is very much men assuming what THEY perceive and have being conditioned to believe (porn, erotica, 'bloke' society) a 'women's place' might be at the hands of a dominant person (be it woman or man). They've eroticised the process and is why we often find a lot of men submitting can not do so without an element of feminisation taking place. They see femininity as to mean 'subservient', 'weak', 'easily overpowered' on one end...and 'dirty', 'slutty', 'whore', etc on the other. Becoming a charactichure (sp?) of 'female' in order to submit.

And you know what...it annoys me, as a woman, not a dominant, not a feminist, but as a individual. I don't strap-on a cock and suddenly become able to swing a hammer or change a tap washer. So while I find the forced feminisation fantasy quite hot and am more than willing to indulge with a likeminded soul... I'll often throw a spanner into their subconcious and not allow them to become that dirty bitch or slutty whore when c/d'ed...

I can see why feminist would have a problem with female submission...but I'm one of these square pegs in a round hole in BDSM & D/s who realises that at the end of the day, most (not all) but most fem subs control their relationships.

< Message edited by Jasmyn -- 10/2/2005 5:26:33 PM >

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RE: BDSM and Feminism - 10/2/2005 6:27:52 PM

Lordandmaster

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I doubt this very much. Edwin Meese wasn't a feminist.

Do people still remember Meese?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre

Look, the Right has it's problems to be sure... but if I, as a dominant, get in trouble with the law because of BDSM it will more than likely before some overzealous feminist prosecutor trying to brand me a rapist after applying a rad-fem inspired overly broad "morning after regret" law and preventing me from showing evidence of consent thanks to rape-shield. It won't be becaase the Pope thinks I am evil.

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RE: BDSM and Feminism - 10/2/2005 10:22:24 PM

Soulhuntre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
I doubt this very much. Edwin Meese wasn't a feminist.

Do people still remember Meese?

Yes, we do. But the day to day threats to our lifestyle come from the concept that a female could not possibley in her right mind want or make her own choices in this. They any woman who does is brainwashed, weak, stupid or worse.

And that idea comes almost entirely from the Dworkin inspired insane feminist extreme.

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RE: BDSM and Feminism - 10/2/2005 10:25:36 PM

Lordandmaster

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We'll have to agree to disagree about this. I'm not fond of the Dworkin extreme either, but I think it has been a lot less influential than the Meese/Ashcroft extreme. Their view is that we're just obscene, and the state has a right to prevent us from expressing ourselves.

Edited to add: Oh, and I'm sure it's clear, but I mean Andrea Dworkin, not Ronald Dworkin, who is a brilliant legal philosopher.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 10/2/2005 10:27:17 PM >

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RE: BDSM and Feminism - 10/2/2005 11:28:50 PM

Soulhuntre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: night101owl
Oh holy christ on a crutch, PLEASE do not make the mistake of believing that the folks who post in the Chararchy represent feminism.

I don't. They do however represent a non-trivial portion of radical feminism. Further, they are an extremely vocal and activist portion. Just like the extreme religeous right does not represent all of Christianity or Republicans, the are vocal and activist and thus definingly visible.

These types of people (the Chararchy gals) infest NOW, infest Womens Studies programs, have political clout, weild economic poer and seem to control most of what happens at the "Michfest". Their patron saint (Dworkin) is responsible for some of the most repressive anti-speech laws ont he continent.

They are far from marginal in that regard. They may not be the totality of feminism, but they are its public face.

quote:

When I and my other extreme radical hyper-feminist friends get together, we CRINGE at what goes on in that forum. We RAGE about it. Absolutely unchecked privilege, from class, race, cisgender, ability, etc., infests those posts.

I love that "privilege" thing. As far as I can tell it is the "thoughtcrime" of radical feminist thought - pretty much anyone one does not agree with is speakign from some place of "priviledge" that supposedly invalidates their comments.

That is not directed at you, BTW, the folks over there accuse each other of it all the time :)

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RE: BDSM and Feminism - 10/2/2005 11:56:34 PM

brightspot

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quote:

IMO, feminism is about the right to choose. Limiting my choices to "NOW approved" choices is not much of a choice, IMO. That's just exchanging one set of limiting ideals for another. If feminism is about choice then I am exercising that feminist choice by making a concscious choice to participate in BDSM.

In responce to the OP, I fall along the same lines as MsIncognito"s above statement.

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RE: BDSM and Feminism - 10/3/2005 6:57:26 AM

night101owl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre
These types of people (the Chararchy gals) infest NOW, infest Womens Studies programs, have political clout, weild economic poer and seem to control most of what happens at the "Michfest". Their patron saint (Dworkin) is responsible for some of the most repressive anti-speech laws ont he continent.

The only place where they seem to control Michfest is on the internet. The vast majority of people who organize and attend the festival think they're nuts, and try to keep their distance. I don't know if you've seen questioningtransgender(dot)com, but that's the creation of the Chararchy, and has really opened people's eyes to how right-wing and regressive Char and her friends really are.

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RE: BDSM and Feminism - 10/3/2005 1:17:33 PM

Soulhuntre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: night101owl
The only place where they seem to control Michfest is on the internet. The vast majority of people who organize and attend the festival think they're nuts, and try to keep their distance. I don't know if you've seen questioningtransgender(dot)com, but that's the creation of the Chararchy, and has really opened people's eyes to how right-wing and regressive Char and her friends really are.

While I find it heartening to hear that they may not be as influential as it seems in some circles, overall their influence is still too strong. This sort of thinking permeates many "womens studies" classes and is much in evidence during the "sensativity training" seminars I have witnessed as several large companies.

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RE: BDSM and Feminism - 10/3/2005 1:26:56 PM

Lordandmaster

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Hmm, that's interesting. The purpose of "sensitivity training" in a large company, as I understand it, is to get employees to behave in such a way that the corporation doesn't get sued. And if that's really the only goal, drumming it into people's heads that all heterosexual intercourse is tantamount to rape may be very effective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soulhuntre

and is much in evidence during the "sensativity training" seminars I have witnessed as several large companies.

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RE: BDSM and Feminism - 10/3/2005 1:54:13 PM

Soulhuntre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Hmm, that's interesting. The purpose of "sensitivity training" in a large company, as I understand it, is to get employees to behave in such a way that the corporation doesn't get sued. And if that's really the only goal, drumming it into people's heads that all heterosexual intercourse is tantamount to rape may be very effective.

You should hear the kind of crap that is "taught" at those things. One of the funniest lines was this one...

"Men like women in high heels so what when they decide to rape them they will be unable to run away".

There was no room, even when asked directly, for the speaker to allow that not all men are rapists. her point was, essentially, that all men are rapists at hear barely held in check by social convention. This movement to insanity is picking up steam.

Clearly the idea here is the same one that drives most religeous groups who try and make natural thoughts sinful - if you can make something everyone does a source of criminality and guilt you can attack anyone at any time

< Message edited by Soulhuntre -- 10/3/2005 1:56:38 PM >

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RE: BDSM and Feminism - 10/3/2005 10:19:28 PM

kimmypuss

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Well, it's true you can't run very far or very fast in high heels...
but if I'm not wearing them, I don't have that extra couple of inches needed when the much taller Him of My Choice wants to bend me forward at the waist and slide in so smoothly from behind...

As a straight feminist sensualist, I know I revel in being sexually submissive to a Great One (not Gretzky,hockey fans) and switchy with a less strong Dom.

Doubt I could hack it 24/7 as a slave tho. That's too big a leap for me.

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