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I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 2:47:56 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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I am a feminist.  Until recently, I thought that most other women were as well, but many women here declare proudly that they are NOT.  After my head stopped exploding, I decided that I might as well ask...  are you a feminist?  And if not, WHAT are you?

First, let's start with some background and definitions.  I was born in the early 60's.  My mother always worked, but she was one of the rare ones.  Most moms stayed home, most dads went to work.  They never did housework, though lawnmowing was designated an acceptable guy task.  At school, my teachers said, Oh, Francine, you're so smart, you should become a teacher when you grow up!  Not a scientist, eh? 

Sounds like ancient history, doesn't it?  But that's how it was, up until very recently.  Women were presented with the teacher-nurse-secretary paradigm if they wanted to go to college, and the waitress-cashier one if they didn't.  Yes, they could buck the system.  It was those women who DID go against the tide, who said that they could take any job that they were qualified for, that they COULD graduate from medical school, instead of nursing school, from law school, instead of being legal secretaries, from whatever they pleased, and do a job that did not involve caretaking.

I'm not going to launch into a diatribe on women's studies here.  If you would like to google topics like women's suffrage, and see just how recently women got to VOTE in elections, please do.  Property rights are another fun topic to explore.  Oh, and Equal Rights Amendment!  There's a special bit of history.  Instead, I am going to recommend that you find some old television shows---Mary Tyler Moore is a good one.  A single career gal with "spunk".  She was one of those who was swimming against the tide, putting up with the crap, and getting it done. Mary was a feminist, the kind of feminist that was my role model, back in the day. 

What does it mean to be a feminist?  It means that women are entitled to equal pay for equal work.  It means that women should have the same educational opportunities as men.  It means that a person's genitalia should not dictate her--or his--entire future.  It means that women should not have to tolerate sexual harassment, and NOT because it might cause a lawsuit.  It means that women are deserving of the same respect as men.  It means that a woman should be able to choose her life path based on her personal goals---and that her choice is a valid one whether she chooses to work outside her house, *or* to stay home and raise her family

Why is this such a big deal to me?  Whenever I hear a young girl--by which I mean someone in her 20's, that could be my daughter--say that she is not a feminist, I feel betrayed.  What on earth are these women thinking?  That we have acheived parity, and now all gender bias is gone?  That the glass ceilings have melted away?  That they genuinely think that the good old boy network is going to let them in without a bulldozer?

I don't have enough words to describe how appalled I am at that shortsighted worldview.  I hear comments from young people of color, who don't remember a city who had race riots---they wouldn't accept that kind of disrespect they hear about, they say. 

Those who would forget history are comdemned to repeat it?





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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 2:54:43 PM   
Aylee


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I am a feminist.  Specifically a social feminist

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 2:54:57 PM   
kittinSol


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I am a feminist. My strong beliefs used to tear at me (because being a submissive calls for all sorts of stereotypes on the 'deep nature of women' and 'man's natural superiority over woman' and all that kind of crap, stereotypes which are in absolute contradiction with feminism), but I solved the problem by realising that submissiveness has nothing to do with gender. It tore at me because I am a woman.

It seems that the younger generation of women thinks that feminism is a dirty word, something to shun because it's uncool. It frightens me that the backlash (as predicted by Susan Faludi in Backlash: the Undeclared War against American Women) is more relevant today than a decade ago when it was published.

Did you watch 'The State of the Union' on television? Men, men, men everywhere. Over a hundred years ago, women fought for the right to vote. Now we are barely reaching the upper spheres of the political power.

I am a feminist; and I cannot understand any woman that isn't (not an insult, just a puzzlement).

Thanks for posting this crucial thread.

PS: before hords of insecure blokes jump down on this thread, I quickly write that feminism does not equate man hating.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 2/3/2008 3:05:11 PM >


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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:06:11 PM   
CuriousLord


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"Feminist" just means something different today.  It means "female supremacist", so they're largely pretty hated in colleges.  The people who feel that people shouldn't be discriminated against based on sex aren't "feminists" but that's just the normal view.

This girl might not use the same word that you did, but she may still share your hopes and ambitions.  But the problem is you're looking at her to share them because she is female.  A lot of girls I know would take offense to that, in the same way a lot of guys will take offense that you expect something different from them based on their gender.

Times change, ya know?

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:06:44 PM   
seeksfemslave


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LadyH, a couple of questions...what did you actually do as distinct from what you tell us people said you should do ?
Who painted and decorated the house you lived in when you were a "nipper" who did any routine work on the car say change a tyre and if any heavy work was required ...who did it ?

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:07:48 PM   
MzMia


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I have been a "Feminist" since I was about 13.
 
Pleased to meet ya, Lady H and Kitten!

I fully expect the normal nasty comments, from the same old people, but I
don't intend to read them, I will enjoy the SuperBowl!

Go Giants!!!


< Message edited by MzMia -- 2/3/2008 3:09:20 PM >


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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:12:13 PM   
ThinkingKitten


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

What does it mean to be a feminist?  It means that women are entitled to equal pay for equal work.  It means that women should have the same educational opportunities as men.  It means that a person's genitalia should not dictate her--or his--entire future.  It means that women should not have to tolerate sexual harassment, and NOT because it might cause a lawsuit.  It means that women are deserving of the same respect as men.  It means that a woman should be able to choose her life path based on her personal goals---and that her choice is a valid one whether she chooses to work outside her house, *or* to stay home and raise her family
(SNIP)
Why is this such a big deal to me?  Whenever I hear a young girl--by which I mean someone in her 20's, that could be my daughter--say that she is not a feminist, I feel betrayed.  What on earth are these women thinking?  That we have acheived parity, and now all gender bias is gone?  That the glass ceilings have melted away?  That they genuinely think that the good old boy network is going to let them in without a bulldozer?




I agree with your definition, but I don't think it's one that the younger set either know or understand. I THINK (and that's totally my invalidated opinion), that they associate feminism with power-hungry females who have a superiority complex over the male gender. If you turned around and told them they were going to lose their right to vote, you'd probably get an indignant reaction, because for them it has always been how things are. They don't recall anything else. They don't recall a time where they had to fight for anything as far as gender equality goes. There will always be a certain amount of the "old-boy" syndrome around (sure they'll die, but they'll be replaced by new ones), but you can only fight against human nature just so far.
 
I think too, that sometimes women go too far in wanting to be equal. Take firefighting. They have minimum physical requirements set up, to determine whether they are capable of doing the job. Now if you're a 5 ft, 100 lb woman who is going to have trouble (even at your steroid induced best) hanging onto a 50 lb live firehose, then you should NOT be crying gender bias, and fighting to get the standards lowered (in my opinion) just so that you can prove you are "equally" capable of doing the job.
 
However, the lack of women in senior management positions concerns me. But then we do dumb things like go off and have kids. A friend of mine, years ago, had made it to a senior position in the oil and gas industry. She became pregnant shortly thereafter, took her mat leave, and then quit work once her PAID mat leave was up, in order to stay home with the child. It was always her intention. I was furious, but bit my tongue. It's that kind of behaviour that I think tends to make the men suspicious of us.


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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:12:34 PM   
faerytattoodgirl


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Some contemporary feminists, such as Katha Pollitt or Nadine Strossen, consider feminism to hold simply that "women are people".


guess im a feminist cause im certainly a person! and a hot one!


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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:14:43 PM   
AquaticSub


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~Fast Reply~

Feminist has become a dirty word thanks to women who take it too far and people not knowing just how many different types of feminism there are. For awhile, I wouldn't apply the term to myself because I didn't realize this.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:16:54 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

Thinkingkitten

She became pregnant shortly thereafter, took her mat leave, and then quit work once her PAID mat leave was up, in order to stay home with the child. It was always her intention. I was furious, but bit my tongue. It's that kind of behaviour that I think tends to make the men suspicious of us.

Your not wrong lol
You imagine a small firm employing a fecund women. Just wont happen as things stand.
PC liberalism......again he he he he he he eh 

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:18:15 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

"Feminist" just means something different today.  It means "female supremacist", so they're largely pretty hated in colleges.  The people who feel that people shouldn't be discriminated against based on sex aren't "feminists" but that's just the normal view.



I see that the anti-feminist movement has cleverly twisted the meaning of feminism (equal rights, respect) so that it appears to be 'supremacy'. And you fell for it? I can't believe students and faculties are all that naive, when they work in the last bastions of knowledge and enlightenment in the world.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:20:41 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

"Feminist" just means something different today.  It means "female supremacist", so they're largely pretty hated in colleges.  The people who feel that people shouldn't be discriminated against based on sex aren't "feminists" but that's just the normal view.



I see that the anti-feminist movement has cleverly twisted the meaning of feminism (equal rights, respect) so that it appears to be 'supremacy'. And you fell for it? I can't believe students and faculties are all that naive, when they work in the last bastions of knowledge and enlightenment in the world.


lol
Would you really expect any less?

Come on kitten


< Message edited by MzMia -- 2/3/2008 3:22:24 PM >


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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:21:38 PM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

"Feminist" just means something different today.  It means "female supremacist", so they're largely pretty hated in colleges.  The people who feel that people shouldn't be discriminated against based on sex aren't "feminists" but that's just the normal view.

This girl might not use the same word that you did, but she may still share your hopes and ambitions.  But the problem is you're looking at her to share them because she is female.  A lot of girls I know would take offense to that, in the same way a lot of guys will take offense that you expect something different from them based on their gender.

Times change, ya know?


Yep, they do.

Equality of opportunity is not nearly in the same state today as it once was.  The promotion of feminism through militant lesbian female supremacy probably wasn't nearly as influential as the use of sex in the media towards the promotion of equality of the sexes.

To define feminism in the 60s meant that women should have equal access to educational, professional, and personal opportunities that men have.  To define it today usually leans more towards women should be empowered because they are women; not because they are people.  I think the best examples of the success of the feminist movements in the 60s is the mere fact that women and men, today, view  feminism with distaste and hostility; it's an attitude that says "Duh, I'd hire a woman over a man if she was better qualified." 

Are we 'there' yet?  Certainly not.  Social change doesn't happen NOW.  It happens gradually, over time, as those with antiquated notions of sexuality and morality die and are replaced by newer ideas.

Note, that I believe the strong possibility of a woman, or a black man, being elected president is a powerful statement towards the changing attitudes amongst American society.

Stephan


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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:22:21 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I see that the anti-feminist movement has cleverly twisted the meaning of feminism (equal rights, respect) so that it appears to be 'supremacy'. And you fell for it? I can't believe students and faculties are all that naive, when they work in the last bastions of knowledge and enlightenment in the world.


It's not just anti-feminists. I speak from personal experience that I have been yelled at by "feminists" for my life choices because they were "wrong". The feminist movement itself has some followers that give it a very bad name. I've seen women complain because a three pack of condoms costs less than a 12 pack of tampons and this is clearly male oppression.

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It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:23:42 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

"Feminist" just means something different today.  It means "female supremacist", so they're largely pretty hated in colleges.  The people who feel that people shouldn't be discriminated against based on sex aren't "feminists" but that's just the normal view.



I see that the anti-feminist movement has cleverly twisted the meaning of feminism (equal rights, respect) so that it appears to be 'supremacy'. And you fell for it? I can't believe students and faculties are all that naive, when they work in the last bastions of knowledge and enlightenment in the world.


lol
Would you really expect any less?

Come on kitten


It's attitudes like this that've made "feminist" a dirty word.  =/

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:29:11 PM   
LadyLynx


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I never percieved as feminism being equated with Female superiority.  And yeah now that we got the vote, we don't have to fight for that, but that doesn't mean that our fight is over.  And I hate to say it, may never be over. (just like with civil rights or gay rights, there will always be idiots out there who want to push us down.) When I 1st entered the lifestyle, I considered myself a sub, with switchy interests.  I had some problems with submission and equality, but luckly met some wonderful people who assured me that being submissive was out of choice, not because I had to be.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:31:22 PM   
MzMia


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lol Curious Lord

 
make my day.

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To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:33:23 PM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLynx

I never percieved as feminism being equated with Female superiority.  And yeah now that we got the vote, we don't have to fight for that, but that doesn't mean that our fight is over.  And I hate to say it, may never be over. (just like with civil rights or gay rights, there will always be idiots out there who want to push us down.) When I 1st entered the lifestyle, I considered myself a sub, with switchy interests.  I had some problems with submission and equality, but luckly met some wonderful people who assured me that being submissive was out of choice, not because I had to be.


Could it be possible that there are idiot women who are just as interested in pushing down men, or idiot blacks who wish to push down whites, or idiot gays who want to push down straight people?

The desire to kick another group square in the crotch for whatever reason is hardly limited to straight, white men.

Stephan


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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:34:31 PM   
AquaticSub


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What, my experiences of having been chewed out by feminists for making my life choices don't count?

Some women who call themselve feminists are taking feminism way too far. Even an intro to feminism class will teach you that one school of feminist thought seriously thinks that we should just reverse the old gender roles.

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 3:46:40 PM   
takenbyjohnr07


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i believe in equal rights for everyone.

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