RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (Full Version)

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BlkTallFullfig -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/17/2006 11:23:17 PM)

I should have said, I don't care how men are wired, if a man wants to be in my life, he will get comfortable with doing only moi, or await my change in rules of engagement to include other people...
quote:

Hmm, and I dare say this sentence makes you quite the catch indeed, "the poly idea, where I would have many lovers anyway, and would possibly permit one of my men involvement with others while I'm bored with him."
I was using an extreme example to show you how far I would have to go to conceive being secondary in his life; the honesty/trust/intimacy were inserted to explain where I would consider not saying "hell no, never!"
Yes I am quite the catch, but that is neither here nor there as this thread goes. M



MsSonnetMarwood -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 5:25:00 AM)

quote:

Also, you don't get together to shop for garbage cans or clean the apartment with the second person, and that's the true benefit to being second. Being second is all about connection and intimacy. O, the horror of it! Why would anyone want that?



This is a good illustration of the frustration many women are expressing at being treated like they are NOT complete people, because that "other" person isn't there for anything but the sex. It's intimacy and connectivity to ONE aspect, not the whole, as in "he's there for what he thinks is the good stuff and disappears for the rest".

Bleah.



MysticalPhoenix -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 5:50:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

Since beginning my exploration/adventure into this lifestyle, I'm finding a large number of men who separate the women they love from the women they phuck (hundreds of men approaching me, some married/attached, some not, wanting to submit to me in private, but not seeking a relationship on the up and up; or a man having awesome chemistry/connection with me while cheating on/staying with a partner with whom he has a broken/unsatisfactory relationship), making me think The Madonna/Whore Complex



Sounds like you've been reading my email, and you know some of the same people I do. This is extremely common.

The problem isn't the Madonna/Whore complex so much as the fact that people get into relationships and marry without considering sexual compatibility. This is complicated by the fact that most men tend to be very secretive about their bdsm interests, and not communicate them to their partner. Mix in the fact that most women don't consider sexual compatibility at all ("if you love him, he'll turn you on and satisfy you" is the mantra of female conditioning).

So, as a result, men sneak around and cheat. They pay for it, or they get it free, but they do seek out other partners that they can be open with about their sexual needs (whether kinky or not) in ways that they can't with their married/attached partners.

Things are also very confusing for the modern man. In the old days, it was easy to differentiate between the sexually available "girls that do (and usually charged for it in cash or gifts)" and the not-unless-we-are-married "girls that don't". They did it with those that did, and they married those that didn't. This is what's come to be called the "Madonna/Whore complex", when in fact, up until very recently, there was a firm dividing line between the two types of women-maintained by the women. No Madonna would soil herself by associating with a Whore, after all, they were beyond the pale of society, and you were likely to be named a loose woman yourself if you did.

Since the 'sexual revolution', women are expected to do it, casually. This resulted in a tidal wave of mid-life crises and divorces as suddenly, guys could get laid, easily,and without paying for it. Even worse, those that don't (outside of a committed relationship) either get pressured into doing it or spend a lot of time alone. Yet at the same time, women are expected to do it, the guys they are doing it with don't want to think about who else they've done it with in the past. They are not comfortable with a woman having a sexual history, but they sure like getting laid by her.

And married guys are still taking advantage of the new paradigm in female sexuality, they have no problem cheating on their wives/girlfriends, etc., they think it's perfectly okay to do so, and they really don't like it when someone says no.

The problem for women in the bdsm scene is that they see us as women who do, because they are projecting their own sexual desires upon us; when in fact, many of us are women who don't.

Phoenix



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 5:58:05 AM)

I'd enjoy a culture where people could honorably have consorts and companions and mistresses/monsieurs in a socially acceptable discreet way as long as it was available to both women and men. But this isn't much of a surprise since I am poly.

I don't see anything wrong with seeking different outlets for different things- some women are wonderful but simply not sexual at all. The problem comes when this is turned into an expectation, a standard of value, and a stereotype- that women are that simple to understand and deal with.



plantlady64 -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 6:05:17 AM)

Hello All,
I think the old double standard about guys having high mileage being macho and girls with high mileage being damaged goods has been around longer than any of us has.
I agree for some reason lots of men want pure or mostly un-touched wives and at the same time want her to have the experience of Linda Lovelace in pleasing them.
Unfortunately a lot of the women who have little sexual experiences are just not motivated sexually. They don't have that animalistic sexual drive the more experienced available girls have.
There are rare ladies who can balance these and be the good girl in public/slut in the bedroom but often this is not the case.
Once the man realizes she's 90% of what he wants and the rest will not happen the way he wants it's usually after their lives have entwined. Many choose to stay and fill their sexuality needs elsewhere and adopt the Modonna complex at home due to not being willing to start over again.
I think in any situation when one partner thinks there is monogamy and the other is cheating it shows a severe characture flaw in the person cheating. It's a very cowardly and selfish way to behave in my opinion.

Master and I have an open relationship. While we do have several partners we have full contact with it's way different than cheating would be. I say if you are not one to stay happy with one partner you need to be up front about it. I also say if other people consider me a Whore for enjoying sex with multiple partners so be it. For me a girl who screws 10 strangers every day has way more purity and integrity than someone who cheats once a month.

If I was a guy I'd want a really hot wife that's had lots of sexual contact. This way I'd know she knows what's out there and what she wants. An experienced woman who wants to have sex to me just seems way better than someone who is not that familiar with carnal pleasures.
Society may teach purity is worth more, but I say look at all the pleasures they miss out on. I'll just stay a happy whore who can be a Modonna if need be.
Sincerely,
sub suzanne





NeedToUseYou -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 6:44:04 AM)

Well, I'm probably going to flogged here, but I think most have differing concepts of the "Madonna/Whore" Complex.

I personally desire a woman that can have both qualities in one woman. My view on what the madonna/whore thing is. So, I want a woman that doesn't dress like a prostitute in public. Is that bad to want a woman to look respectful in a nice dress when going out, or when casual wearing clothes that don't allow cleavage and her butt to pop out. That's fine but not my type. Someone posted earlier about her boyfriend wanted her to dress hot in public well that would be the "whore/whore" complex, wheres the madonna in that. I want a woman that can hold a intellectual conversation and not use curse words in public. Sounds good to me. A woman that can interact and be seen respectfully in social circles. I'm not getting what's wrong so far. A woman that can raise children if it came to that and the kids wouldn't be ashamed of there mother. The madonna sounds great to me it mostly sounds the same as what women want in a man.

And the whore part, well what man doesn't want a woman that wants to have sex all the time and desires him sexually. The "whore" part in my opinion is more a want for a woman that wants sex alot. I don't think and have never heard it in used in a context that madonna/whore means the guy wants a actual whore in bed. It's more a way of saying I want a woman that wants alot of sex and enjoys doing it. What's wrong with that. I'd hope any woman would want her man to desire sex with her as well.

Sounds to me like some are confusing guys that just are pigs and/or married to non-sexual women to men that want a madonna/whore. I don't blame a guy for cheating on his wife if she rejects him sexually, I would say they should just divorce though. The whole assumption here has been the men are all doing something wrong. It takes a woman for each of these guys to be with, and contrary to popular opinion most of the time the woman knows the man is married, or in a relationship. Alot of women target guys in relationships because they desire the kind of relationship they saw the man in.

Most women have the Prince/Stud complex to coin a new term. A respectful man than can fulfill them sexually.




cloudboy -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 6:48:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MysticalPhoenix
And married guys are still taking advantage of the new paradigm in female sexuality, they have no problem cheating on their wives/girlfriends, etc., they think it's perfectly okay to do so, and they really don't like it when someone says no.

Phoenix


Neither you, MsSonnet, or BlkTallFullfig has been able to think "outside the box." You can stay within the Madonna/Whore paradigm, or you can think past it.

Its a mistake to think that with Men, its all about the sex. Next, you fail to consider or even address the inherent problems of lifelong monogamy. Believe it or not, these problems apply to men and women.

I think the core issue you have here, though, is the plethora of married men who solicit you who want nothing more than a secret, sexual liaison. Because it has to be secret, b/c that's all these men think they are allowed, b/c they are terrified of their wives finding out, all they allow themselves is a quick sexually oriented fling. Well, this insanity is traceable to monogamy, and not the Madonna - Whore complex.

Liberation and understanding lie in knowing that a person can love two people and that such a thing is not BAD. If you operate on this principle, the lying and the cheating stop, communication opens up, honesty rises to the surface --- and then one can actually seek a second sustainable relationship wherein "its not just all about the sex." Next the two people one loves are going to be DIFFERENT. This is axiomatic, and its the whole point of finding fulfillment --- its not a Maddona-Whore divide, that's bullshit.

So, you all are missing the point entirely, IMO.

So, what's really funny, is watching you all get frustrated with the ill side effects and disease of monogamy, while searching for a what seems to me, a life-long monogamous relationship. Good luck with that one. I do think its important to find a primary partner, with whom you may make a lifelong committment, but to me its a mistake to assume that person will be everything. Next, I agree its a poor dynamic to have a single person in a relationship with a married one. Here the needs do not allign very well and they are imbalanced. So I would never advise a single person to go first with someone who places them second. This situation is doomed.

Lastly, it takes some revolutinary skills to love two people and be allowed to do it. What I have found is that these skills are completely self generated --- you don't go to the bookstore and find much aid or support in the "self help" section.

Funny, so many problems with monogamy and "betrayal," and so few real solutions. Tammyjo, rec's THE ETHICAL SLUT. The local library doesn't have it....go figure....



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 6:54:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
Is that bad to want a woman to look respectful in a nice dress when going out, or when casual wearing clothes that don't allow cleavage and her butt to pop out.

The issue is that you are assocating "dresses this way" to "has this personality."

I can dress in the finest Ralph Lauren suit in the world...I'm still an amazing whore. I could still want to have sex all the time...and still be a graceful woman.

You are trying to limit me to behaviors and expressions that fit into your boxes- I go way beyond your boxes.



NeedToUseYou -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 7:05:36 AM)

No I'm not I'm saying exactly what you are. To put it plain terms, a madonna whore, is a woman that has the ability to act completely unwhoreish when appropriate. But nonetheless have whoreish desires for only one guy(not a real whore). I don't think you read my whole post.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 7:12:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
No I'm not I'm saying exactly what you are. To put it plain terms, a madonna whore, is a woman that has the ability to act completely unwhoreish when appropriate. But nonetheless have whoreish desires for only one guy(not a real whore). I don't think you read my whole post.

The problem is that you are assigning "actions" as being whoreish or not whoreish AND that certain actions are appropriate and inappropriate.

And you don't even want a "real whore." You want someone who will fit into your nice ideals. A person can be a REAL whore, and be a perfect lady....and so much more, all the time.

The subtleties and complexities of females go far beyond your dualistic ideas.



NeedToUseYou -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 7:24:18 AM)

So do the those of men go deeper, sorry I don't have the time to write a book in order to express every little thing I'd like a woman to possess, ordered by importance. I guess that is what you want. Of course real people are deeper, unfortunately, the only way to know such things is to meet someone in person, and since we are online and each forum post can't be a book. I guess we are stuck with gross generalities. Whereas the madonna whore concept is a generalization and the discussion is about generalizations about madonna whore concept not unique personalities and variations.

And of course I don't want a real whore, I've never met any guy that did, unless it was just to get his rocks off, and he didn't have another option. That's the whole point. The Whore in Madonna/Whore isn't a literal, it is just a way of saying a guy wants a woman with a healthy sex appetite. You are right I don't want a real whore, and I've never talked to any of my friends that did.



cloudboy -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 7:25:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

You are trying to limit me to behaviors and expressions that fit into your boxes- I go way beyond your boxes.


If this is any consolation, I don't have any boxes for you.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 7:26:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
And of course I don't want a real whore, I've never met any guy that did,

LOL you probably have, you just don't know it.

All of my boys want a real whore, considering I am one.

Plenty of doms like their subs to be real whores. Plenty of fabulous women in the world ARE real whores, and you would have no idea.

See? Your views of "real whores" are limiting.



cloudboy -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 7:47:10 AM)


I found this text in someone's profile, and I thought it was an interesting definition of honesty:

>In a relationship, my very bottom line is openness. I don't mean the kind of honesty where flat out lies are not told, but the kind of openness where feelings are shared and not hidden. There is a big difference in those two ideas, and not many people get it, but that latter quality is what I'm looking for.<



Padriag -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 7:49:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I've been married, am now happily divorced, so don't have any especial need for a state sanctioned contractual relationship with a man, but I enjoy intimacy, commitment, and I'm monogamously wired, so I seek the same. I've encountered a phenomenon only apparent since my declaring self dominant/sexually open to exploration...

I'm wired pretty much the same way, so no I don't personally relate to the whole Madonna/whore thing. I think part of that is because I don't view being kinky as being dirty... I never even much liked the word slut and don't often use that (some like that in play, I'm ambivalent about it at this point). But I have encountered women who seem to have their own version of the Madonna/whore thing going on. That is... they can be a kinky slave to me, but only if I don't love them. The minute I show affection or love towards them it blows the whole thing. And I've encountered that a lot... which has made finding a companion a tad difficult.

quote:

Since beginning my exploration/adventure into this lifestyle, I'm finding a large number of men who separate the women they love from the women they phuck (hundreds of men approaching me, some married/attached, some not, wanting to submit to me in private, but not seeking a relationship on the up and up; or a man having awesome chemistry/connection with me while cheating on/staying with a partner with whom he has a broken/unsatisfactory relationship), making me think
quote:

The Madonna/Whore Complex
For some men, love and sex don't mix. For them, love is reserved for 'good' women, and sex is reserved for 'bad' women. In cases of the Madonna/Whore Complex (or Syndrome), a husband's relationship with his wife may be based upon the unmet intimacy needs he had as an infant. He may unconsciously seek out a woman who reminds him of his mother so that those needs can finally be met.

When these men marry, they will marry a 'good' woman, a virginal woman. They will love her, they will protect her, they will treasure her. http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/sexualproblems/a/madonna.htm

I've seen what you describe in others, and as I said above, even in women. Some gals seem to have it in their head they have to be "bad" to be kinky which then means they can't be loved, presumably because that's only for "good" girls. Me... I love a good kinky girl who can carry a conversation about stuff I'm interested in.

So now I'm stuck with this mental picture of Caitlyn half naked having an involved discussion with me about medieval studies! LOL You people sure manage to make my day interesting. [;)]

BTW, if I can find it there's an old essay I have on the fear we have of sex around here somewhere... if I can find it I'll post it. As I recall it made some interesting points about the fear of sex many have, why they think its dirty, etc. Will be a few days, leaving for a business trip later today and won't be back til Friday.



thetammyjo -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 7:50:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

cloudboy
Being second is all about connection and intimacy. O, the horror of it! Why would anyone want that?


I will NEVER accept second place, unless I come to wrap my brain around the poly idea, where I would have many lovers anyway, and would possibly permit one of my men involvement with others while I'm bored with him.
Intimacy and connection for me involve honesty, trust; I have never trusted, nor would knowingly become intimately involved with someone who lies and cheats to his wife/girlfriend. M



Being poly doesn't have to be about having seconds or third places. It can be about realizing that people give you different things and that you can fulfill different parts of other people's lives.

Tom is my husband and legally he'd be my first.

Fox is my slave and we live in a country where neither that relationship or multiple spouse is allowed so by those criteria he's be second. When I introduce him to vanillas I sometimes say "secondary partner" (something we agreed upon before I ever used the term)

But in my heart and mind neither is second or first. Of course we also all live together and operate as a family which seems rare even among poly people. Guess what? That means we all shop, do the trash, clean the house, pay the bills, all of that mundane stuff together too.

No one should try on a relationship style they do not feel comfortable with. That's not quite right because it reads like I'm saying "don't try new things" which is not what I mean. Bloody words getting in the way of communication!



NeedToUseYou -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 7:57:49 AM)

I'm sure there are men that do, I never said there were no men that didn't want whores. Good for them, and more power to them. Is this going to go on until I agree with you. I can only 100 percent definitively speak for myself and the way I've heard the word Madonna Whore used. And in that case, I don't want a real whore, and the people I talked to said they wouldn't either, they may be lying to me, but who cares, more power to them if they did. I've known people that have went to whores, but it was just because they couldn't get it elsewhere. I doubt they'd tell the whore they really didn't want to be with them while they're sucking them off. LOL, consider your audience.

I'm a little perplexed that you aren't able to accept that I don't want a real whore or a large amount of men don't. If I did I could have one for 50.00 without all the hassle of a real woman or pick up a bar slut. It's true, and if I found out the woman I was with was a real whore I wouldn't be with her anymore. Not everyone must agree with everything you are saying, and embrace the elegant whore concept as ideal. Fine, be that, I don't have any problem with it at all. Just don't agree that's what most men want. Don't confuse the fact that someone is with you, is because they want to be, sometimes people don't have anywhere else to go to get what they need there is a real difference there.



thetammyjo -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 7:59:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Lastly, it takes some revolutinary skills to love two people and be allowed to do it. What I have found is that these skills are completely self generated --- you don't go to the bookstore and find much aid or support in the "self help" section.

Funny, so many problems with monogamy and "betrayal," and so few real solutions. Tammyjo, rec's THE ETHICAL SLUT. The local library doesn't have it....go figure....


But if they put that book in the public library it might undermind "Family Values"!!!!

*sarcasm off*

I think "The Ethical Slut" is a good book for anyone in a relationship but I have a huge note on this: read it outloud together with your partner(s). I've seen several partners read it separately and together -- the ones who seem to get the most from the book read it together and talk about it as they read. That's what Tom and I did. The focus of that book (and frankly most relationship books, advice, therapy, etc) is communication and making your partner feel valued.

*sarcasm on*
Which explains why it can't be in your public library. Communication and valuing each other are not "family values" -- stick to those stereotyped and narrow roles and you can just be perfect and happy as is or you're the one at fault.
*sarcasm off*



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 8:09:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
I've known people that have went to whores, but it was just because they couldn't get it elsewhere.


Actually many of my clients are happily married or involved with others, even with healthy sex lives, and many of them are very socially and sexually proficient with very good sex drives and skills. It's a great fallacy to think that males call for whores because it's their only option.

As well it's a great fallacy to think that whores dress or act or talk in certain ways.

And I meant that they want me for ME. They want ME, and I am a whore. None of my partners are my clients, they don't pay, we have a personal intimate relationship. But I am still a whore, just like a whore who has children is a mother and a whore.

quote:

I'm a little perplexed that you aren't able to accept that I don't want a real whore or a large amount of men don't.


I accept that you don't want a real whore.

I simply know the reality of life, how many whores are out there that go to the grocery store, that have real jobs, real kids, real lives, and how men DO want them, never knowing they are actually whores.

I am against you suggesting that you don't want a real whore, when the reality is that you've likely met real whores, wanted them, and not known that they were real whores.

You are limiting ideas of what real whores are.



NeedToUseYou -> RE: The Madonna/Whore Complex in wiitwd??? (1/18/2006 8:34:12 AM)

This is what you said "I am against you suggesting that you don't want a real whore, when the reality is that you've likely met real whores, wanted them, and not known that they were real whores."

This is what I already said regarding this "It's true, and if I found out the woman I was with was a real whore I wouldn't be with her anymore. "

Actually, the girl I was seeing in college was a bit of a whore, I didn't know it, but when I found out, didn't have anything to do with her anymore (she was seeing another guy at the same time, not talking about past relationships).

Sure I've seen real whores that were sexy, hot, and all that good stuff. So, is your point that there are whores that I wouldn't know were whores. That's hardly a point, So your point is alot of guys go for whores not knowing they are whores? OK,that's true about anything, alot of women go for guys not knowing they are abusive. It doesn't mean that they want a abusive husband they just didn't know. So, yeah, I guess I could be fooled by a lying whore. Wow that's a really good point. I'd also prefer not to be with liars, I must be really crazy.

The point is given the choice between a real whore and a non-whore, who I would be with is the non-whore.

Anyway, this is ridiculous at this point, I already said I had no problem with your concept, and am sure some guys are exactly as you stated and I don't want a real whore. You seem to not be able to deal with the concept that a man wouldn't prefer a non-whore over a whore. You must be really invested into the whole whore concept for it to be this hard to accept someone might think different.



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