Thoughts on Male Submission

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OttersSwim -> Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 6:50:55 AM)
This is for the Ladies...some thoughts on submission and male behavior... I have this belief...it goes like this: "There is nothing in western society today, that says to a male, that it is in any way acceptable to be submissive, yielding, soft, pliant or compliant." Boys are most often still raised to stuff their emotions, not cry, to be tough and frankly often to be somewhat dismissive of women and to be a bit selfish - my opinion. And so I have heard stories from multiple Ladies here who have had encounters with males who profess to be "submissive" and then prove to really not be submissive at all...or were they? That concept of what it means to be -male- is a high high hurdle to get over - guys are bucking every ingrained social belief that they have been taught about what it means to "be a guy". Being a male is so much tied into being in control - at the base of one's self. And so you have a guy who feels feelings of submission, fights his socialization, and maybe comes to a place where he is ready to explore this in real time. What I have seen on these forums is that they will often come at it first with a "this far and no farther" attitude. This does not feel like submission to a lot of Dommes and so they go away disappointed...when in fact, the guy had made significant progress in rethinking his socialization and is sort of in the "proof of concept stage". Whereas She is looking for someone who has made the journey lock stock and barrel...I don't think you find too many of those guys out there who will go all the way on their own. Not saying that it cannot happen, but it is a lot to get through on one's own. It is an easier journey for a girlie boy. We are already fighting a socialized norm and thus, letting go of male socialized behavior tends to be what we are all about. Submission, IMO, comes easier...but what the girlie boy has to fight is to "look up" from ourselves and our own interests and needs to embrace the needs of another. In either case, I believe that there can be a good submissive inside that male, be he girlie or not...the key is evaluating where they are in that evolution and considering if they would be worth helping - either through that "proof of concept" stage, or into that "get outside of yourself" stage and into actual submission. I am wondering if the Ladies who are searching have thought of this, and either agree or disagree with it, or have additional thoughts. And what about the submissive males - what are your thoughts? Do you recognize this in yourself, or not? Do you have additional thoughts? Thanks for reading. :) <3 Otter/Sabene

OttersSwim -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 7:39:11 AM)
As an addition...I think that a male going through this process of overthrowing their ingrained male socialization is actually paid benefits in mental and emotional control in that they have come face to face with releasing control as a conscious decision that they make in their lives. This makes them possibly even more inherently "male" because they have conquered themselves and come through the other side a stronger and more confident person....

bighappygoth39 -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 8:03:21 AM)
When I was searching, I always had a great respect for any man that had faced up to his submissive tendencies, and knew exactly what he wanted from life. A lot of people might think of submissive men as weak, and not 'manly' but for me, and I believe, a lot of other female dominants, a man who has accepted that his needs go against the 'norm' is very manly to me, and proves a very strong character, indeed, and always will do. [:D]

slavekal -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 9:05:04 AM)
Great topic. Do you mind if the guys weigh in? This is a really complicated issue with no easy answers.

LadyNTrainer -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 9:35:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim It is an easier journey for a girlie boy. We are already fighting a socialized norm and thus, letting go of male socialized behavior tends to be what we are all about. Submission, IMO, comes easier...but what the girlie boy has to fight is to "look up" from ourselves and our own interests and needs to embrace the needs of another This may well be why I am almost exclusively attracted to bisexual, genderbent and androgynous men. They know what it feels like to want to be wanted and desired with primal passion, pursued fiercely and conquered, valued enough to be taken and chained and owned. Most heterosexual men with a traditionally masculine mindset and upbringing, even the genuinely nice, considerate and submissive ones, simply can't even imagine such things. It's not in their makeup, so we end up fundamentally incompatible on any level but casual BDSM play. Because of my own sexual preference for men, I've ethically avoided engaging in relationships with transgendered women even when I find them very hot, because what I actually like about them and find sexually attractive is their maleness in balance, not really their femaleness. That would make me a really lousy partner for a TG who needed to express her femme side or become fully female as opposed to remaining androgynous or balanced. A TG needs a fully supportive partner who can embrace her femininity and be attracted to it, and that's actually not me, despite the fact that I am very much attracted to androgyny and genderbending. Thing is, the guy's got to be either bisexual or genderbent/genderqueer, AND 100% comfortable remaining physically male and totally outside either one of the traditional gender boxes, but able to play freely on either field. And male submissives say they have it tough when seeking a compatible partner. I am damn lucky to have found two who are wired just this way. It definitely took a lot of toad kissing along the way to find my princes, and the vast majority of men, even the ones who identify as submissive, would simply not be compatible with me in an LTR. Other people's mileage may vary.

PeonForHer -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 10:45:18 AM)
FR - Just to remind of that most, perhaps, will consider obvious, but which nonetheless can somehow disappear in discussions like this: A man who has freed himself from male socialisation doesn't, thereby, automatically become more 'feminine' - he just becomes more himself. There's an important practical corollary. This is that it's a can be a lot easier for many men to redefine 'masculine' for themselves than to accept the idea of 'becoming more feminine'. Put at its simplest, the maxim, lesson for a male is: 'You don't have to try to be a man - you already are one. You are a man, therefore, whatever you do is manly, and that's that.' And likewise, whatever a woman does is womanly, by definition.

OttersSwim -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 11:00:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavekal Great topic. Do you mind if the guys weigh in? This is a really complicated issue with no easy answers. Please do! :)

OttersSwim -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 11:06:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer FR - Just to remind of that most, perhaps, will consider obvious, but which nonetheless can somehow disappear in discussions like this: A man who has freed himself from male socialisation doesn't, thereby, automatically become more 'feminine' - he just becomes more himself. There's an important practical corollary. This is that it's a can be a lot easier for many men to redefine 'masculine' for themselves than to accept the idea of 'becoming more feminine'. This I agree with 100%. I am in no way advocating that the path to submission is a path to femininity. I actually believe that conquering your own inherent male socialization in order to grasp submission is actually quite a manly thing to do! It is taking an active role in your life, making a decision to exchange power with another human being and being okay with that. Loss of control is never more freeing! Makes you want to lift heavy objects and spit! quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Put at its simplest, the maxim, lesson for a male is: 'You don't have to try to be a man - you already are one. You are a man, therefore, whatever you do is manly, and that's that.' And likewise, whatever a woman does is womanly, by definition. I will simply say here that I believe that there is a pretty vast difference between a "male" and a "man" and that I have met many of the former, and only few of the latter....but I take your meaning P and I don't think you were arguing stridently for every male being a "man" as you have no doubt seen me ascribe in my posts.

OttersSwim -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 11:09:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer Because of my own sexual preference for men, I've ethically avoided engaging in relationships with transgendered women even when I find them very hot, because what I actually like about them and find sexually attractive is their maleness in balance, not really their femaleness. That would make me a really lousy partner for a TG who needed to express her femme side or become fully female as opposed to remaining androgynous or balanced. A TG needs a fully supportive partner who can embrace her femininity and be attracted to it, and that's actually not me, despite the fact that I am very much attracted to androgyny and genderbending. Thing is, the guy's got to be either bisexual or genderbent/genderqueer, AND 100% comfortable remaining physically male and totally outside either one of the traditional gender boxes, but able to play freely on either field. And this is a complex issue too LNT, because we are all on a journey to self and authenticity and evolving. This may mean that what is balanced one day in male and female expressions may the next seem or be stifling or right out based on how they are evolving. My Lady is much in the same way - she enjoys that male/female energy working together in a sort of balance between the two that allows expression on either side of the gender fence.

PeonForHer -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 11:52:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim I will simply say here that I believe that there is a pretty vast difference between a "male" and a "man" and that I have met many of the former, and only few of the latter....but I take your meaning P and I don't think you were arguing stridently for every male being a "man" as you have no doubt seen me ascribe in my posts. At bottom, Otters, that is exactly what I mean - that whatever a man does is manly. Just as much as I believe that whatever a woman does is womanly. When I've seen the admonition to males - men - on this forum, for instance, to 'man up' (and 'and stop cheating on your wife', or whatever bad thing said man is doing) I've generally been in agreement that the target of the admonishment should 'stop being a bad person and attempt to be a better person'. But, no, I've never felt entirely comfortable with 'man up', 'be a man', or the like. I don't and wouldn't use such terms. For me the good idea - the good advice - carries a taint of that old, screwed-up message, with it. That could have the further effect of feeding the root cause of the problem.

OttersSwim -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 1:09:50 PM)
Well P, we will have to disagree on that one as I definitely perceive a difference between "male" and "man"...but taking us all down that road is a bit off the topic and so I will let it drop. Very manly of me, don't you think? [;)]

lobodomslavery -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 1:12:51 PM)
I think there are both aspects to both genders that are both positive and negative. Male strength is a positive for example, male disposition to aggression is not, female beauty is a positive but females using sexuality to aggressive affect may not be kevin

PeonForHer -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 2:01:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim Very manly of me, don't you think? [;)] No. You're a big pansy, Otters. [;)] Well, OK, each to his own, and all that. I will say, though, that the root of what I say on this is no dry theory. Many moons ago, I saw a counsellor while at college. I argued strenuously with him about how 'little of a man' I felt I was. It was after some months of this - which must have given the poor guy serious migraines - he leaned forward and said, 'You don't have to try to be a man. You already are one.' Much of what I've been able to become (such as that is) stems from that principle and the pursuing of all of its ramifications. It worked partly because of my temperament. I added my own bit to my counsellor's line, and repeated it as a mantra. I would certainly apply it in real life, when necessary, too. Thus, a hypothetical: "Don't tell me to be a man. I already am one. I like playing the piano. Therefore, if you don't, you're not a real man. Now fuck off." It's only, really, a basic feminist principle, transferred. I'm never - or at least I'd hope I'd never - say to a woman 'Become a better person - stop screwing up your life and those of others - by reaching for those qualities that are, or should be, in all women'.

KurtAllen -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 2:28:05 PM)
OttersSwim: Social indoctrination neither roots nor separates the man from manhood; being masculine and a male is nature’s endowment but those characteristics do not measure the man, the codes of honor the man adopts as a man-child and the quality of content he develops defines him.

LadyPact -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 2:39:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim This is for the Ladies...some thoughts on submission and male behavior... And so you have a guy who feels feelings of submission, fights his socialization, and maybe comes to a place where he is ready to explore this in real time. What I have seen on these forums is that they will often come at it first with a "this far and no farther" attitude. This does not feel like submission to a lot of Dommes and so they go away disappointed...when in fact, the guy had made significant progress in rethinking his socialization and is sort of in the "proof of concept stage". Whereas She is looking for someone who has made the journey lock stock and barrel...I don't think you find too many of those guys out there who will go all the way on their own. Not saying that it cannot happen, but it is a lot to get through on one's own. In either case, I believe that there can be a good submissive inside that male, be he girlie or not...the key is evaluating where they are in that evolution and considering if they would be worth helping - either through that "proof of concept" stage, or into that "get outside of yourself" stage and into actual submission. I am wondering if the Ladies who are searching have thought of this, and either agree or disagree with it, or have additional thoughts. And what about the submissive males - what are your thoughts? Do you recognize this in yourself, or not? Do you have additional thoughts? Thanks for reading. :) <3 Otter/Sabene Otters, I'm going to start this whole thing by saying that I sincerely believe you are a good soul. I am never once surprised by the amount of compassion that you have for others. Which is exactly why I'm going to disagree with some of what you have said here. While this is a wonderful piece and I believe your heart is in the right place, the problem with this concept is that it starts sounding as though these males are owed some sort of entitlement on the part of Dominant women. Helping others to reach this place you speak of is not something that can be demanded or someone made to feel like it is expected in some way. This is not the case. It comes across too much as though this is some kind of charitable process where Dominant women are here for the purpose of this goal. It's almost like saying just because someone puts the submissive label on themselves, they should now be considered somebody's project. We are all in a state of progress, rather than perfection. Yet, to assume that others are primarily interested in coaxing them along to where they need to be puts the responsibility for the work on a person that can't do it for them. In a dynamic of some sort, this would be a part of a healthy relationship and of course partners want to nurture growth. To appear to lay it on the female Dominant population at large when there is no vested interest is asking more than some people are willing to contribute.

slavekal -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 3:09:33 PM)
Modern men face a lot of conflicting messages. The situation is probably worse for submissive males. Women want Sensitivity and/or submission, but they still want traditional when it suits them. It isn't easy balancing manliness/strength with obedience and submission. Lucky for me, I handle it all flawsessly.

KurtAllen -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 3:13:40 PM)
I agree with Pact, dont look for another to give you or even assist you in acquireing the quality of manhood you aspiret to. Its entirely up you. Years ago I was told you will become all you want to be when you become all you already are and no one can help you or do it for you. The man telling me that said it daily to me in seven languages, later in life I spoke read and wrote in all those languages and that was part of his lession.

PeonForHer -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 3:48:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KurtAllen I agree with Pact, dont look for another to give you or even assist you in acquireing the quality of manhood you aspiret to. Its entirely up you. Years ago I was told you will become all you want to be when you become all you already are and no one can help you or do it for you. The man telling me that said it daily to me in seven languages, later in life I spoke read and wrote in all those languages and that was part of his lession. I'm not so sure, Kurt. There's the view that when two (or more) people get together, each helps the other become more than he or she was before. Or, even, more than any one of these could have become as separate individuals. Some say that's the main point of getting together in the first place.

PeonForHer -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 3:57:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact To appear to lay it on the female Dominant population at large when there is no vested interest is asking more than some people are willing to contribute. I can't see that there's a vested interest for the femdom if she's got a dyed-in-the-wool 'do-me' on her hands - a one-trick sub who'll only ever do that trick - but if she thinks that the raw material's there for him to grow . . . . I guess, firstly, we have to think the ones who'll 'grow' are - relative to the ones who won't - quite rare. It'd be a shame to miss out on one of those. Secondly, I was always fond of the idea of people 'growing, together' in the process of their 'growing together'. Does the sub not help the dominant to grow in her dominance, too? (Come to think of it, I've rarely seen that discussed, here.)

OttersSwim -> RE: Thoughts on Male Submission (7/25/2010 4:14:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact ... While this is a wonderful piece and I believe your heart is in the right place, the problem with this concept is that it starts sounding as though these males are owed some sort of entitlement on the part of Dominant women. Helping others to reach this place you speak of is not something that can be demanded or someone made to feel like it is expected in some way. This is not the case. It comes across too much as though this is some kind of charitable process where Dominant women are here for the purpose of this goal. It's almost like saying just because someone puts the submissive label on themselves, they should now be considered somebody's project. We are all in a state of progress, rather than perfection. Yet, to assume that others are primarily interested in coaxing them along to where they need to be puts the responsibility for the work on a person that can't do it for them. In a dynamic of some sort, this would be a part of a healthy relationship and of course partners want to nurture growth. To appear to lay it on the female Dominant population at large when there is no vested interest is asking more than some people are willing to contribute. This topic and my thoughts in it, are a product of my thinking about submission and what it all really means...my own experiences with it bumping up against my male upbringing (even as a girlie boy), and seeing it in action from others - both submissive males that I know, and potentials contacting my Lady and folk here through their writings... Part of my purpose was to outline the process going on in most males seeking this life. I frankly don't know that a lot of Dommes actually see this conflict going on. Maybe they do and all this is old news, not sure. You Ladies are in a position of evaluation more often than not. Who is this guy and where is he? A critical question to answer for a Domme seeking a sub. I wanted to add my thinking into yours as it were and suggest that to my mind, there is a plateau that a lot of guys reach where they feel like they have to "try it on" before they can really go all the way. I was not really thinking that anyone was entitled thereby, nor that these guys should be given any sort of a pass or handout because of where they were. But if this line of thinking was something a Domme had not necessarily considered before, and she encountered a guy in that place, she would then hopefully recognize it and add that concept to her evaluation. Maybe not...again, personal choice on how any one person would proceed. I also wanted to express it for any potential subs that may be experiencing those feelings but not have yet put a defining package around them - hopefully help them in their journey through this complex internal process.

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