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NorthernGent -> Israel (11/17/2010 2:27:23 PM)

Just come back from Israel....plenty to say on the place....but will keep it to this little story....it's not that interesting a story but I'm struggling for entertainment tonight and if you're reading this then you probably are too....

Was walking down to the Western Wall through a gate in the Old City called Dung Gate. This Jewish bloke came up to me....grabbed hold of my hand....put a piece of string round it and started saying some sort of prayer...asked me about my wife and children...."not married/no children".....asked me my name etc....when he finished this prayer for me....he said: "some money please....it's for the poor".....so I gave him 50 sheckles (about 8 quid). Knew I was being scammed during the process but what can you do apart from accept it and walk away with a wry smile.

About a week later....I went into David's Tomb to have a look around....in there was a synagogue...went in...put a scull cap on my head.....and from nowhere (sure the fucker crawled out of a crack in the wall)....came this same bloke. He went through pretty much the same routine. I thought "oh fuckin' hell...here we go again". This time when he asked me about wife and children...I said "yeah married...name Claire" just to see if he would recognise me or did he do this sort of thing 20 times a day so wouldn't know me from Adam. When asked about children said "yeah 8 kids".....names are: John...Thomas...etc"...just to make him work for his money. So after this prayer for my imaginary wife and imaginary 8 kids...he did his: "money please for the poor" routine. So I reached into my pocket for a few coins and the cheeky fucker said: "notes please". What a wanker. "Sorry mate....no notes on me". So gave him a few coins.

Was reading a newspaper the next day (an American newspaper by the way written by American Jews and Israeli Jews - and have to say was a top quality newspaper - some excellent articles in it) turns out that the Jewish are building settlements in East Jerusalem and are basically forcing Arabs out of their homes and taking over them with the help of quasi goverment organisations - Elad? Basically - these organisations are forcing Arabs to sell their homes at a knock down price and are selling them on or renting them to Jewish Israelis for next to nothing. Then the penny dropped - this Jewish scam merchant was using my money to help Jewish Israelis rent stolen Arab homes. Felt pretty sick about the whole thing.





hertz -> RE: Israel (11/17/2010 2:35:07 PM)

I'm cheered by your story - I was expecting another Israel fan-boy post. Hopefully you will consider what you have read and experienced very carefully, and take the time to find out what you can.

Then it's up to you. You can walk on by, or you can make the decision to act in some way, in the hope that things can be changed. I'd recommend Boycott, Divestments and Sanctions as a useful first step.




DesFIP -> RE: Israel (11/17/2010 2:58:34 PM)

How do you know what the money was going for? And that he wasn't just an ordinary person asking for handouts? One hell of an assumption there. Or do you assume when a guy at a tube station asks you for money for coffee that it's really going to government projects.




Termyn8or -> RE: Israel (11/17/2010 6:00:30 PM)

FR

I heard that in Israel they have the very best security in the world - because they need it

T




AquaticSub -> RE: Israel (11/17/2010 6:14:38 PM)

quote:

.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

How do you know what the money was going for? And that he wasn't just an ordinary person asking for handouts? One hell of an assumption there. Or do you assume when a guy at a tube station asks you for money for coffee that it's really going to government projects.


That's kinda what I'm wondering. What is in the article that suggest that this particular man was begging for money for that? Could you link us?




Termyn8or -> RE: Israel (11/17/2010 7:42:24 PM)

FR

You can't link to personal experiences, but in this case NG, just how did you find this out ? I do not disbelieve you, but what was the source that informed you that this money was not going for altruistic purpose ? ( to say the least ) I don't think you would mention it unless the source has some credibility with you.

The way people get on this board I must say, I mean that with respect and not one iota of sarcasm. Your posts speak of a Man with reason, and that is the reason I ask.

Not to mention the fact that you got us all sitting on the edge of our seats now.........

T




Zevar -> RE: Israel (11/17/2010 8:30:29 PM)

quote:

Was reading a newspaper the next day (an American newspaper by the way written by American Jews and Israeli Jews - and have to say was a top quality newspaper - some excellent articles in it) turns out that the Jewish are building settlements in East Jerusalem and are basically forcing Arabs out of their homes and taking over them with the help of quasi goverment organisations - Elad? Basically - these organisations are forcing Arabs to sell their homes at a knock down price and are selling them on or renting them to Jewish Israelis for next to nothing. Then the penny dropped - this Jewish scam merchant was using my money to help Jewish Israelis rent stolen Arab homes. Felt pretty sick about the whole thing.


Would you be willing to provide the newspaper source regarding the information you alleged against Jewish Israelis‘ as is quoted above?

Take care!





Termyn8or -> RE: Israel (11/17/2010 10:45:51 PM)

Yes, "top quality".

Zzactly

T




Aneirin -> RE: Israel (11/18/2010 5:53:45 AM)

This reminds me of the old gypsy woman and her sprig of lucky heather, all the nice words and good feeling given to make one think oh what a nice soul then the money demanded and given for fear of the gypsy's curse. When NG mentioned the old chap with his bit of string I was thinking this, more scam artists and they exist everywhere, the poor being the self for if one has to scam others then they must be poor to sink to such levels. The old man was probably pocketing his winnings.

But unless there is reports that such scam artists and confidence tricksters are targeting tourists with the aim of extracting easy money to pay for the pawns in East Jerusalem, I tend to think more scam artist here than where the money is going.

But you notice the word I use to describe the settlers in East Jerusalem for that is what they are, right in the firing line so to speak if a retaliation occurs thus proving those that are ousting the Arabs in reality care little for the settlers wellbeing other than the fact that they are Jewish, the only thing they need as political or military reason to punish the Arabs.

I wonder how the settlers that are being put in East Jerusalem, former Arab homes feel, are they aware of their position right there where danger is likely to embroil them, are they aware they matter not one bit to authorities beyond their religion.

I therefore believe Israel is intentionally provoking further conflict by creating a situation which will at some point boil over and the next the world will hear is Palestinians kill Israeli settlers in Eastern Jerusalem or some other such use of powerful and politically emotive terminology to bring further support for the Israeli cause.




hertz -> RE: Israel (11/18/2010 1:21:49 PM)

The OP mentioned 'Elad'.

The Elad Association is as evil as anything else in Israel. Read about them here, if you care to.




NorthernGent -> RE: Israel (11/18/2010 1:46:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

How do you know what the money was going for? And that he wasn't just an ordinary person asking for handouts? One hell of an assumption there. Or do you assume when a guy at a tube station asks you for money for coffee that it's really going to government projects.


That's kinda what I'm wondering. What is in the article that suggest that this particular man was begging for money for that? Could you link us?




It's my guess. As I gave him 50/60 sheckles he pulled out a wad of notes - this particular benefactor wasn't exactly struggling judging by his wedge. Could be wrong - just my view.




Kirata -> RE: Israel (11/18/2010 1:55:11 PM)


Fundamentalism, sadly, is not just a Christian or Islamic phenomenon. The Israelis have their own bunch of crazy Jews. The link below is to the third of a series of one-hour programs examining fundamentalism worldwide. Move the slider over to 27:15 for the beginning of the segment on Israel. There are also links further down the page to the first two programs in the series.

The Fundamentalists, Part 3

K.




Aneirin -> RE: Israel (11/18/2010 2:00:00 PM)

I knew already about Elad, but pennies might well drop and associations made but unless there is proof that the religious scammer was collecting on behalf of Elad, or it is stated that such religious scammers are targeting tourists on behalf of the organisation, then there is no link aside from supposition, for there are many poor including the scammers themselves, but poor in what context.

But I do find it wholely disgusting that so called religious people do such things to others for no other reason than they believe in a different way.

Now I am not going to get embroiled in the whole Israeli cause bullshit, it goes too far back into the mists of time, but what I will say tit for tat, eye for an eye and all that crap gets no one nowhere. The first religion of these warring three that puts the past behind themselves admits their errors and starts to strive for a better future for all gets my confidence vote, for this crap has really gone on too long.




NorthernGent -> RE: Israel (11/18/2010 2:10:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

quote:

Was reading a newspaper the next day (an American newspaper by the way written by American Jews and Israeli Jews - and have to say was a top quality newspaper - some excellent articles in it) turns out that the Jewish are building settlements in East Jerusalem and are basically forcing Arabs out of their homes and taking over them with the help of quasi goverment organisations - Elad? Basically - these organisations are forcing Arabs to sell their homes at a knock down price and are selling them on or renting them to Jewish Israelis for next to nothing. Then the penny dropped - this Jewish scam merchant was using my money to help Jewish Israelis rent stolen Arab homes. Felt pretty sick about the whole thing.


Would you be willing to provide the newspaper source regarding the information you alleged against Jewish Israelis‘ as is quoted above?

Take care!




Certainly would. Have a few copies with me as I type.

The newspaper is the global edition of the New York Times: 'International Herald Tribune'. Within it....there is an Israeli section to the newspaper: 'Haaretz'....defining itself as 'Israel's leading daily newspaper: established 1919'.

The newspaper includes an article by Gideon Levy - certainly Jewish - probably Israeli - Netanyahu is on his way to the US re peace talks and a US Jewish conference - he urges US Jews to be critical of the Israeli government rather than give blind support. Basically he gives a nod and a wink to the idea that the Israeli government is a fascist regime which is storing up problems for itself.

If you want a date - Sunday November 7th.

There's an article by a bloke Shaul Arieli too - I'd guess Jewish. He writes: "Netanyahu's policy is diplomatically blind to the threats posed by these trends to the chance for regional stability. Is is based on a conception that fails to link Israel's deeds and failings to its chances of bringing about stability and normalization in the Arab world. It prefers to see military superiority as a sufficient condition for stability and security and does not seek to add the necessary conditions of political agreements that have international legitimacy..economic coperation and the like. This conception - which revives the fatalist ideas of a nation that stands alone - could become a self-fulfilling prophecy for those in Israel who believe that its destruction is an unchanging need of the Arab and muslim world. But this doctrine is nothing other than a revival of the sad story of Masada - of which Menachem Begin said: "we must learn from Masada how not to reach it".

In other words - might is far from right in this case - and will inevitably lead to self-destruction.




NorthernGent -> RE: Israel (11/18/2010 2:21:28 PM)

Ok....nothing better to do....I'll type this out for you....

Dear American Jews.....(Gideon Levy).....

Today your representatives will open your great annual convention - the General Assembly. Between New Orleans' Marriott and Sheraton Hotels you will be sated with lectures and lecturers...panels and discussion groups. Some will be about you - some will be about us Israelis. Once again you will hear all the cliches - and Joe Biden.....Benjamin Netanyahu and Tzipi Livni too.......I read that your menu includes several discussions about the de-legitimization of Israel. Doubtless the speakers will tell you it's because of anti-Semitism. Don't believe them. There is anti-Semitism in the world but not to the extent they will tell you. Nor is there any de-legitimization of Israel. There is only de-leigitmization of Israel's policy of force and occupation. That same 'anti-Semitic' world knew how to embrace Israel when the latter chose the right path - during the Oslo era for instance. What most of the world has become fed up is only Israel's ongoing occupation and violent policy. And the responsibility lies with Israel not the world. The world is hard on Israel but also grants it special rights that no other country enjoys. If Israel is dear to you then be honest enough to criticise it as it deserves.

Can't be bothered to type the rest of it out......but it's an interesting article that goes on to say that Israel is like a junkie that needs weening off an addiction......to violence and aggression.





calamitysandra -> RE: Israel (11/18/2010 3:51:52 PM)

Had a bad experience in Germany/with a German recently, or did just somebody piss into your Wheaties this morning? [;)]





Firebirdseeking -> RE: Israel (11/18/2010 6:59:49 PM)

oh brother.  Israel is a tiny country, the size of New Jersey, surrounded by countries who want it destroyed, who REFUSE to make peace.  It is interesting how much Israel is criticized...I wonder, as I do not frequent the boards much any more - does China get as much attention for its human rights violations?  Do you know that a man was imprisoned in China for forming a support group for parent of children whose baby food was contaminated with melamine?  No government is perfect, take a look arouund, but dont ya kinda think Israel gets criticized disproportionately?  What's your point, OP?  Are you looking for injustice?  Dont you think there is just a tad more injustice elsewhere in the world?  




Termyn8or -> RE: Israel (11/18/2010 8:15:02 PM)

<taking notes

T




DomYngBlk -> RE: Israel (11/19/2010 5:16:24 AM)

Isreal is at best disingenuous in this whole process and only look to help themselves "secure" their country. At worst, they are trying to exterminate Palestinians from the face of the earth. Either way we need to put a pinch collar on the state of Isreal and bring them in line to what we want. After all, we are paying for the whole thing.

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/trudy_rubin/20101111_Worldview__The_latest_settlement_snub.html




Aneirin -> RE: Israel (11/19/2010 6:00:13 AM)

I think the focus on Israel is because of what the conflicts stem from; religion and the fact that the religion the Israelis hold is the same as many in the western world, added to that, they are similar people to ourselves in terms of appearance, so it stands that we who look in see our own people pissing of a bunch of people who are related in many ways to those who hold and control what the west dearly wants to prosper and needs to barely survive.

Now China and places over there, the people, well the majority hold different beliefs to any of the god three so they are not offending any religious ideal furthermore they are different in appearance to us, so we believe we cannot relate as these people are alien to us, but they are a force to be reckoned with, in some ways similar to the Arabs because of their economic control. Added to that, their sheer force of numbers and their military capability which is not to be scoffed at.

The once powerful west knows there are bigger kids now on  the block, kids it does not want to reckon with, so seeks to make alliances so it may have something of what they have got, be it scraps from their table, but it is better than the alternative. So things like that age old likeness of religion is taking a back step in the face of bigger concerns, especially so now as religion is again losing it's grip in the face of economics

Things like human rights abuses in the countries that now hold power, well they happen that is for sure, as they have always done and always will, but aside from what our people might say, in reality they don't care in the face of the foreign powers they are trying to make friends with. Such things like what the concerned groups pick up and highlight are but a fly in the ointment, an irritation the bosses don't need when they are trying to make everything sweet with the bigger kids on the block.

But we have to beware, what abuses we seek and see elsewhere, we have to look to our own first before we try to change others, Israel I believe is in with ourselves due to the criteria mentioned in my first paragraph, if we cannot quell what is obvious for the world looking in to see, how can we dare to even suggest what others might like to think about doing.

If anything we represent a noisy complaining ideal that is dying on it's feet, there are bigger things in the world now than the once British Empire and the Imperial United States, our importance is waning and the world at large knows that full well. The new powers that exist in effect hold the west by the short and curlies and soon we will dance to their tune.

Religion, what is that, the God 3 where does the power lie, my thoughts certanly not with the Christian, so we have a problem, we must pander to the two that remain as they are both economic powerhouses but between those two who do we most desire, that is simple, those that have something to sell that has a future for now, for if we don't buy, there are bigger players who will happily take over our share, China, the new emerging superpower that only stands to get bigger.




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