Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (Full Version)

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SternSkipper -> Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 2:04:36 PM)

Can we ask the Memorial Day Question "How come Memorial Day, a national holiday honoring originally our civil war dead, and later expanded to include our fallen soldiers from all of this nation's ensuing conflicts, is so frequently co-opted for partisan political discussion?
A lot of people just love to attach all kinds of mystical meaning to the holiday, but really, while 'rights' and 'national pride' and even "freedom' are such colorful topics, this holiday isn't anymore about those than to give those left behind some additional solace and a reason for their loss (when it happens to be close enough in their temporal sense of 'loss'.
The original fallen honored were fighting for one primary reason, to preserve a crumbling union. The political 'attachments' had a big propaganda/political component to them.
But really this is about NOT FORGETTING our fallen soldiers who died serving their country. The very first was an effort to honor about 250 prisoners of war that were placed in unmarked graves and there was a concern these men would be forgotten, but it over time, became a wider event to honor all those who'd fallen. Did politicians show up and march? Yes, but they weren't participating at the time to campaign or grind political axes. And Scuri might even find it interesting that his own personal political hero,[image]http://www.insight-info.com/myadmin/photos/Jesse%20Jackson.jpg[/image]
... which he sometimes mentions with great reverence being Carolinian, probably had ancestors that were DIRECTLY responsible for the first Memorial Day.
Now, after the holiday was well established, and really mostly in the last century really, there came a great Whoring of the holiday into a pulpit for electioneering and even the furtherance of 'movements' and social agendas. All brought to 'relevance' by mystical arguments that there MUST be a deeper meaning.
But it has never really and truly been about a lot more intrinsically than we owe it to those who've died in military service to their country and to ensure that at least symbolically, they are not forgotten.
Back when my father was very active in veteran's affairs, he and his peers were very careful to stress to politicians on election years that the Veterans in RI really wanted as a collective, to ask they avoid 'stumping' at parades and other events (that was back when the VFW actually pulled some weight in our society).
And today, I find myself thinking about these concepts in as much as I will be attending a Waterfront Festival in Newburyport this weekend and I had to kind of have 'the talk' about my beliefs concerning the holiday. I was relieved that he, having been of similar upbringing (his Dad was a figure in Veteran's Affairs), and that he agreed the speech he gives shall contain no politicking and that while he has to have a canvassing presence (given the petitioning deadlines approaching), we will have a uniform statement that canvassers at our two locations in the town, will respond to inquiries with a statement that "Out of deference to our nation's fallen soldiers, we will not answer policy questions. We have campaign materials we can send you via mail or email, if you like. Or you can go to www. ...".
And then thursday night, I got a call from my older brother, who probably takes a more resolute view of the holiday, and while he knows all kinds of politicians, having protected so many in his long career, reminded me that he has done the same thing for the past 18 years. Every year on the Friday night of the memorial day weekend, he hooks up with one of his high school buddies (so long as they own a motorcycle) and they meet in Newport, RI at a bar that's been around and pretty much a young people's gathering spot (college kids, softball teams, etc) and they have a few beers, get on their bikes and then ride through the night to Arlington Cemetery to leave a flag and a few flowers at the grave of our next door neighbor Donald. He was a kid basically who got taken out by a mortar in Vietnam while resting, eating a meal in between patrols. He says that he sees the numbers of people doing this from around the country seems to grow somewhat. He first got the idea when in the 70s he was still a DC cop and spoke to a small group of bikers who met up at the mall in front of the Wash monument. He ended up escorting them with another patrol car to the cemetery "because they just liked the gesture".
And that's what I really think is the most important thing about the holiday. Not the
I am curious how others feel about the use/misuse of the Memorial Day Holiday by either political people, or by just people who like to get on a soapbox, for whatever motivation. I mean is this way of looking at and observing this holiday even valid anymore?




Fightdirecto -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 2:45:05 PM)

I had a "lovely" Memorial Day experience today.

As I have done every year for the past 25 years that I have lived in New England, I drove out to visit the grave of one of my Army Ranger team who is buried at the Massachusetts Veteran's Cemetery on Cape Cod near Camp Edwards/Otis AFB. He and I had been on the same Ranger team in Vietnam in 1970-1971 and he died of Agent Orange-related cancer in 1976.

As I was walking back to my car, I saw a woman in her mid 40s staring at the back of my car at the "Re-elect Obama" campaign sticker on the bumper, which happens to be right next to the "U.S. Army Retired" decal. She asked if it was my car and I replied "yes". She then started screaming at me, saying I was a "traitor" to the United States because I was supporting President Obama and how they should strip my military retirement benefits away from me because I clearly "hate" my country. She then spat on the ground in front of my feet. I got in my car and left.

Yes, a "lovely" Memorial Day experience.




TheHeretic -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 3:00:31 PM)

Sounds like your chickens came home to roost, Fightdirecto.

Free speech is one of those key American principals we like to tell ourselves the dead were lost for. A good argument on their behalf seems at least one of many ways to remember them, and be grateful for their sacrifice.




SternSkipper -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 3:21:24 PM)

quote:

I was supporting President Obama and how they should strip my military retirement benefits away from me because I clearly "hate" my country.


Ya know I starte3d to say something that was getting political... but I changed my mind.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 3:31:18 PM)

Welcome home FD.

Perhaps her getting to be a complete cunt to you saved someone else from her venom. Obviously, someone who would let bumper stickers, on a car at a cemetery, upset them that much, needs help in a big way.




dcnovice -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 4:14:26 PM)

quote:

As I was walking back to my car, I saw a woman in her mid 40s staring at the back of my car at the "Re-elect Obama" campaign sticker on the bumper, which happens to be right next to the "U.S. Army Retired" decal. She asked if it was my car and I replied "yes". She then started screaming at me, saying I was a "traitor" to the United States because I was supporting President Obama and how they should strip my military retirement benefits away from me because I clearly "hate" my country. She then spat on the ground in front of my feet. I got in my car and left.

Sorry to hear that, FD! I pride myself on my ability to see things from others' perspectives, but all I'm coming up with in her case is "nut job."

And thanks for your service!




TheHeretic -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 4:27:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

Welcome home FD.

Perhaps her getting to be a complete cunt to you saved someone else from her venom. Obviously, someone who would let bumper stickers, on a car at a cemetery, upset them that much, needs help in a big way.



Depends on what the woman might have been doing at the Veteran's cemetery herself, on Memorial Day weekend, and how fresh her grief might have been.

A correct response, from a compassionate person, might have been to offer condolences for whatever caused her obvious anguish. Some would rather just drive right home and jump into a thread about how awful people who disagree are, I suppose.




dcnovice -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 4:46:25 PM)

quote:

A correct response, from a compassionate person, might have been to offer condolences for whatever caused her obvious anguish. Some would rather just drive right home and jump into a thread about how awful people who disagree are, I suppose.


I'm not sure about that, to be honest. One of the things I learned by volunteering with homeless women (many of whom had mental-health issues) back in college was that engaging someone on a rampage may just escalate the situation.

It also sounds as if the woman was doing a bit more than merely "disagreeing." FD says she was screaming and calling him a traitor, then she spat on the ground. It's honestly hard to imagine her shifting gears to a reasoned dialogue.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 5:17:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

Welcome home FD.

Perhaps her getting to be a complete cunt to you saved someone else from her venom. Obviously, someone who would let bumper stickers, on a car at a cemetery, upset them that much, needs help in a big way.



Depends on what the woman might have been doing at the Veteran's cemetery herself, on Memorial Day weekend, and how fresh her grief might have been.

A correct response, from a compassionate person, might have been to offer condolences for whatever caused her obvious anguish. Some would rather just drive right home and jump into a thread about how awful people who disagree are, I suppose.

I really consider my self to be a compassionate person, in person, not so much on line I have to admit.

If anyone came up to me at a cemetery and was losing it in the way this woman did, I would be glad I carry a pistol.

Nuts is nuts, IMHO.




SternSkipper -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 6:01:19 PM)

quote:

I really consider my self to be a compassionate person, in person, not so much on line I have to admit.

If anyone came up to me at a cemetery and was losing it in the way this woman did, I would be glad I carry a pistol.

Nuts is nuts, IMHO.


Tea makes people nuts... film at 11[8D]




SternSkipper -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 6:02:37 PM)

quote:

And thanks for your service!


yeah FD ... I second that




Fightdirecto -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 7:49:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

A correct response, from a compassionate person, might have been to offer condolences for whatever caused her obvious anguish. Some would rather just drive right home and jump into a thread about how awful people who disagree are, I suppose.

I'm not sure about that, to be honest. One of the things I learned by volunteering with homeless women (many of whom had mental-health issues) back in college was that engaging someone on a rampage may just escalate the situation.

It also sounds as if the woman was doing a bit more than merely "disagreeing." FD says she was screaming and calling him a traitor, then she spat on the ground. It's honestly hard to imagine her shifting gears to a reasoned dialogue.

My feelings were as you described. It seemed clear that she was "not in the mood for a reasoned discussion". For whatever reason, she apparently swallowed an overdose of the Right-Wing media's Kool-Aid (i. e. support for President Obama is treason, opposition to President Obama is patriotism) and appeared potentially violent. Worst possible scenario could have been her having a gun in her purse, taking it out and shooting me, thinking in some warped way that she was "protecting her country". It was best to leave.

It just bothers me that a veteran like myself can't pay his respects to another veteran on Memorial Day weekend without having to deal with some radical uber-patriot.




Winterapple -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/26/2012 8:35:54 PM)

You did the right thing in walking away and not trying to have a
conversation with her. It's like when and unbalanced person
comes up to you on the street and starts screaming at you.
Get away from them.
It's possible she's newly grief-stricken. She might have lost her
husband or brother or son. I suspect it's more likely
she is a person with underlying mental problems who has
been driven over the edge by paranoic political
blather. She deserves compassion either way.
I don't really see her as an example of free speech.
If she had behaved in that manner with more people
present or near a graveside service she could probably
be arrested for disturbing the peace. And if she had spat
on him that would probably count as assault.
Freedom of speech doesn't translate to asshole harpie
harassing people.
As for the OP. Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
That politicians try to exploit it for their benefit is a
depressing reality. It backfires on them lots of times though.




dcnovice -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/27/2012 6:59:57 AM)

quote:

Sounds like your chickens came home to roost, Fightdirecto.


You've lost me here, Rich. How was the woman's outburst one of FD's chickens?

quote:

Free speech is one of those key American principals we like to tell ourselves the dead were lost for. A good argument on their behalf seems at least one of many ways to remember them, and be grateful for their sacrifice.

I agree that free speech is one of the glories of American life, and I don't dispute the woman's right to exercise it. But I wouldn't describe her actions--verbally accosting a veteran on his way back from honoring the grave of a departed comrade--as "a good argument."




Musicmystery -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/27/2012 8:12:31 AM)

quote:

A correct response, from a compassionate person, might have been to offer condolences for whatever caused her obvious anguish. Some would rather just drive right home and jump into a thread about how awful people who disagree are, I suppose


You well of compassion you.




TheHeretic -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/27/2012 8:24:53 AM)

I was going for two birds with one rock on that post, DC. Fightdirecto encountered someone of the reverse polarity to the kind of negative, hate-filled energy he often puts out in the forums, and the second line was a general reply to the whine of the OP, who didn't feel responding negatively to another poster on her thread for the holiday weekend was sufficient, and decided he needed to start a whole new thread to stomp his foot about it.

One of my uncles who served in Vietnam, pretty much holds Nixon personally responsible for his experience. It's been 40 years, and you still wouldn't want to get him talking politics when those memories are bubbling.

40 years old, and in the Vet's cemetery on Memorial Day weekend. Husband? Son/Daughter? How fresh is her grief? It seems she found a focus point for the anger she must be carrying, and then a trigger and target. Since it landed at the feet of someone else who projects blind partisan hate out into the world, I find a certain symmetry there.




Fightdirecto -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/27/2012 12:47:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I was going for two birds with one rock on that post, DC. Fightdirecto encountered someone of the reverse polarity to the kind of negative, hate-filled energy he often puts out in the forums...


If highlighting the words and deeds of those who wish to destroy my country is "negative, hate-filled energy" - I proudly acknowledge my "guilt" - though I see my "guilt" as patriotism.

quote:

Since it landed at the feet of someone else who projects blind partisan hate out into the world, I find a certain symmetry there.


Since this woman probably has never read anything I have written on the Internet or in a Letter To The Editor (and even if she had, she probably wouldn't know I was the individual that wrote it at a chance meeting), the only thing I have done, to her knowledge, that "projects blind partisan hate out into the world" is to put a "Re-Elect Obama" bumper sticker on my car.

If someone puts a "Romney For President" or a "Ron Paul For President" bumper sticker on their car, does that mean they are "projecting blind partisan hate out into the world"?

BTW, what am I projecting to the world with the other decal I have on my car, next to the "Re-elect Obama" bumper sticker? Here's what the other decal looks like:

[image]local://upfiles/42188/CCC618A214804A7EB6287223AC9B0FD0.jpg[/image]




Fightdirecto -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/27/2012 12:53:28 PM)

And this is a copy of what I have put on my car to "project blind partisan hate out into the world":

[image]local://upfiles/42188/74223A25277545E0AC4A74C0D59A735E.jpg[/image]

Clearly a sign of a traitor who hates their country...




SternSkipper -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/27/2012 4:05:52 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I was going for two birds with one rock on that post, DC. Fightdirecto encountered someone of the reverse polarity to the kind of negative, hate-filled energy he often puts out in the forums...

If highlighting the words and deeds of those who wish to destroy my country is "negative, hate-filled energy" - I proudly acknowledge my "guilt" - though I see my "guilt" as patriotism.


Tell ya what, how about next time you remember Rich's sensitivity to Obama haters the world over NEXT HOLIDAY HONORING OUR FALLEN WAR VETERANS and show some sensetivity.. CALL 911, explain you're a Vet honoring a fallen Vietnam comrade at his graveside and tell them you were just assaulted buy a crazy woman in the car behind you and give them the plates. Also mention she seems to have a violent posture against the President of The United States. Another nice touch might be to pull out enough so she can't get by and roll up the windows, and well just set a while so she can stew a little.
In Massachusetts, you and I pay for some GREAT mental health facilities... and it would be a great demonstration of sensitivity to get her LOCKED THE FUCK UP IN ONE.
Heh ... it could give you a double warm fuzzy in that it will be one of the rare times we get some form of return on our law enforcement tax budget.




SternSkipper -> RE: Can we ask the Memorial Day Question ... (5/27/2012 4:16:56 PM)

quote:

quote:

Sounds like your chickens came home to roost, Fightdirecto.



You've lost me here, Rich. How was the woman's outburst one of FD's chickens?


FD Is liberal in his politics therefore crazy people think everything is his fault.






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