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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:05:24 PM   
BamaD


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I just checked the video and from the looks of it the cops didn't know where the shooter was. They run(literaly) up on him and react as him they are suprised. Still not a briliant opperation.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:05:38 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


Imagine a couple of armed citizens adding their bullets to the P.O.'s on 5th avenue !

As usual, you totally miss my point.

1. the police aren't "highly trained". they go to the range a coupla times a year to make sure they can still hit the side of a barn.

2. It isnt necessary for a civilian to pull a weapon to prevent crime.
it is only necessary for a criminal to know that they are there. He will then conduct himself accordingly.

The District of Columbia has the strictest gun laws in the nation.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0308.pdf

Their violent crime rate is Triple the US as a whole.

I didn't miss shit...I'm just not buying it.While I agree with you that "highly trained" is a misnomer,I highly disagree with your assertion that the specter of armed civilians will somehow impact criminal behavior.
That is ,at best a specious argument...at worst just so much bullshit.


If you have any good evidence to the contrary I'm all ears and I promise not to call you a Leftist or whine to the Mods about you calling me bad names.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:07:16 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


Imagine a couple of armed citizens adding their bullets to the P.O.'s on 5th avenue !

As usual, you totally miss my point.

1. the police aren't "highly trained". they go to the range a coupla times a year to make sure they can still hit the side of a barn.

2. It isnt necessary for a civilian to pull a weapon to prevent crime.
it is only necessary for a criminal to know that they are there. He will then conduct himself accordingly.

The District of Columbia has the strictest gun laws in the nation.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0308.pdf

Their violent crime rate is Triple the US as a whole.

I didn't miss shit...I'm just not buying it.While I agree with you that "highly trained" is a misnomer,I highly disagree with your assertion that the specter of armed civilians will somehow impact criminal behavior.
That is ,at best a specious argument...at worst just so much bullshit.


Then what do you think is the reason for the high crime rate in D C? Is it because they are 90% black? Doesn't that make you a bit biased?

Might have something to do with poverty,lack of legit jobs,lousy schools or a dozen other socio-economic reasons....but you playing,in the asking,the race card just might say something about your bias....not mine.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:07:31 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

How many gun shops have you heard of getting ~robbed?
How many open carry people have you heard of getting ~robbed / mugged, etc?


MANY !!!!!! Have you heard of "Google"? Page after page of it. Guns are valuable--so people steal them.



Any statistics better than the one link you pointed to? I did a search and only got the one link you posted. You said "MANY!!!!!". Is that your imagination or facts?




_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:12:18 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline
~FR~

None of us were there. None of us were privy to the orders the cops got during the whole mess. Or how many conflicting orders they may have gotten. None of us were in that moment, making the split second decisions that those with feet on the ground were having to make.


The fact that no other civilians were killed, nor were any of the LEOs, says to me that those LEOs made the best of a bad situation. It was, in my mind, similar to an urban guerilla attack.
The cops responded to the situation as best they could. Again, it certainly didn't help that quite a few civilians were following the action instead of evacuating themselves (what is it about having a cell phone with video capabilities that negates the fight or flight instincts we, as humans, are supposed to have???)

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:12:37 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

ETA, unfortunately veteran police officers training consists of a coupla trips a year to the range to make sure they can still hit the side of a barn. It isnt what you have been led to believe it is.


I would be somewhat curious to know what the actual figures for training are, in terms of hours and rounds down the range.

Here, our police force is generally not armed. In the capital, there is at most one request from a patrol per day for permission to arm themselves in response to some situation, which is considered dramatic and reflective of a situation bordering on lawlessness in the capital. Of course, there's only about 1.5 million people in that police district, so not comparable to a large city. Said police district has recently increased to some 60 hours minimum at the range for regular police, and 120 hours (I think) for the ones that are preferred in the event of a "shots fired" scenario, while the SWAT teams do an average of 900 hours of training (practical ops, not range time). Anyone that's serious about it will obviously train more than the minimum.

I'm assuming the figures are significantly higher for the USA, at least?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



The department I worked with (and again I was not sn officer but admin) required each officer to qualify once a year. 35 out of 50 spread over ranges from 5 2 25 yds. One investigator needed 4 trys to make it and still couldn't hit the broad side af a barn at 25 yds.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:14:00 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
Just messing with you

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:16:50 PM   
stormy66


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Joined: 5/11/2012
Status: offline
Do you really believe that if folks are still patrolmen/women that they aren't the sharpest individuals. I can name any number of law enforcement folks that prefer to be on the road and not get caught up in all the political BS of rising in rank and losing out on "union" protection / dealing with all the politics and kiss ass to get into a unit and remain there. After all, if you don't fit in then you are ousted -- no rights.

Some folks just enjoy doing their shift and going home to their families. I have rank and there are days I wish I had stayed at that point of my career -- less bureaucracy and more rights. That is a very cavalier commentary to be applied across the board....

Look at the Guard and Reserves -- you have older folks in E5-E6 ranks because there are no "positions" and if they make rank they are out. They like their jobs too much to get out. Same thing with officers -- you can promote yourself out of a job and position.... Why do you think you read about early retirements be offered and if you have so many years in this rank then you must retire... no place to keep folks.... We push our most valuable assets out....

I can't believe how easy it is for folks to play Monday morning quarterback. If you are in a store or walking into a store and someone short guy enters or is in to rob it with a gun, are you going to jump the guy with the gun -- after all you are a guy so you must be macho .... It is way to easy to play to cast judgement. What is sadder is that these two guys are probably harder on themselves than you are being on them, and they were there.....

No one knows how those police officers ended up where they were. Was the description accurate, were they told the shooter was still in the building? People are running/moving everywhere - did he blend in?? Early morning folks are everywhere? Just like the military -- until you are the one taking fire or threatened it is easy to cast judgement on another's actions.




(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:19:26 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
fr

Here are some stories via Keep and Bear Arms

Here's an example of MANY!!!!!!.

Clifford Hall, 37, of Cocoa has been charged with several counts of armed robbery after police said he robbed a Viera 7-Eleven convenience store, a Rockledge liquor store and a Cocoa hotel over the weekend.

Hall was arrested after an 18-mile pursuit by police that led to a car crash and foot chase. He then broke into a Canaveral Groves home, where he was held by the homeowners at gunpoint until police could arrive.

He remains at the Brevard County Detention Center in Sharpes awaiting his 1:30 p.m. court appearance.







_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:21:54 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

(what is it about having a cell phone with video capabilities that negates the fight or flight instincts we, as humans, are supposed to have???)


That is an interesting observation.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:25:51 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


Imagine a couple of armed citizens adding their bullets to the P.O.'s on 5th avenue !

As usual, you totally miss my point.

1. the police aren't "highly trained". they go to the range a coupla times a year to make sure they can still hit the side of a barn.

2. It isnt necessary for a civilian to pull a weapon to prevent crime.
it is only necessary for a criminal to know that they are there. He will then conduct himself accordingly.

The District of Columbia has the strictest gun laws in the nation.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0308.pdf

Their violent crime rate is Triple the US as a whole.

I didn't miss shit...I'm just not buying it.While I agree with you that "highly trained" is a misnomer,I highly disagree with your assertion that the specter of armed civilians will somehow impact criminal behavior.
That is ,at best a specious argument...at worst just so much bullshit.


If you have any good evidence to the contrary I'm all ears and I promise not to call you a Leftist or whine to the Mods about you calling me bad names.

You made the assertion...you can present the evidence,but allow me to ask you this.
Do you believe the death penalty is a deterrence to murder?
These are criminals we are discussing ,by and large not reasonable well thought out types of folks....prove to me that these types put a lot of common sense thought into their behavior ?
Wouldn't expect name calling from you,nor would I resort to it in your direction,as far as I know/feel there is only one character in these parts who makes liberal use of the "whine to the mods"button...and he ain't you

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:26:04 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

How many gun shops have you heard of getting ~robbed?
How many open carry people have you heard of getting ~robbed / mugged, etc?


MANY !!!!!! Have you heard of "Google"? Page after page of it. Guns are valuable--so people steal them.



Any statistics better than the one link you pointed to? I did a search and only got the one link you posted. You said "MANY!!!!!". Is that your imagination or facts?




Oh good grief.

You enter the search term in the search bar, and Google pulls up related links.

https://www.google.com/search?q=gun+store+robbery&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:36:00 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

35 out of 50 spread over ranges from 5 2 25 yds.


Could you clarify what you mean by this?

Also, how much paid time do they spend training to acquire the skills they're testing?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:49:07 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
This might sound unrelated, but I went on a rafting trip in Costa Rica. The river featured class 5 rapids. On the bus ride there, the guide said, "if you go into the water, remember to breath and stay calm." I almost did not pay attention to this advice, because it struck me as common sense.

During the trip, the raft flipped. I went into an undertoe area in the river. Had I not had a life jacket, I would have been sucked under water. With the life jacket, I was pinned, swallowed some water, had a hard time breathing, and panicked. I coped poorly and was really shaken. In contrast, I can swim in an ocean with rough surf. I know how to hold my breath, I know how to breathe, know how to manage rip currents, etc. I don't panic.

The trick for training these officers must lie in giving them practice for a high stress confrontations, so that they are veteran ocean swimmers as opposed to flipping into class five rapids a first time.

My wife just finished reading a book on D-Day. It was noted that most draftees who were not really professionally trained soldiers got mowed down in combat and were not effective soldiers. Without training and experience, they could not cope with combat.

Lastly, your point, about training the police better, also applies to my hometown as BALTO has similar problems to NYC:

Baltimore Police have shot 10 people this year — eight of them fatally — leading some to question whether police are properly equipped to handle calls involving the mentally ill.

Only one of those shot was carrying a firearm, and several shooting incidents arose from calls to police about a disturbance involving someone with a mental illness. Relatives of some of those killed criticized police tactics, saying they shouldn't have lost loved ones after calling police to defuse situations that had ended peacefully in the past.

"They need better training with mental cases," said Candace Church, 29, whose brother David Yim was shot in April. "They're treating mental patients like criminals, and they're not criminals."

The most recent shooting occurred Saturday, when a 63-year-old man was killed by officers who had been called to the 1600 block of W. Lexington St. to investigate a 911 call for a burglary.

Neighbors and friends said the victim, Rudolph Bell, was a homeless veteran who had recently emerged from a Veterans Affairs program and was affectionately known around the neighborhood as "Mr. Rudy." But police said he attacked an officer with a knife or bottle, cutting the officer on the face and narrowly missing his eye.


< Message edited by cloudboy -- 8/26/2012 3:50:55 PM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:54:47 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
These are criminals we are discussing ,by and large not reasonable well thought out types of folks....prove to me that these types put a lot of common sense thought into their behavior ?


Then what of ~Florida and the subsequent change to criminal statistics since passage of concealed carry? Also, here is some information not usually known concerning criminal behavior and firearms.




_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 4:24:51 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stormy66

Do you really believe that if folks are still patrolmen/women that they aren't the sharpest individuals. I can name any number of law enforcement folks that prefer to be on the road and not get caught up in all the political BS of rising in rank and losing out on "union" protection / dealing with all the politics and kiss ass to get into a unit and remain there. After all, if you don't fit in then you are ousted -- no rights.

Some folks just enjoy doing their shift and going home to their families. I have rank and there are days I wish I had stayed at that point of my career -- less bureaucracy and more rights. That is a very cavalier commentary to be applied across the board....

Look at the Guard and Reserves -- you have older folks in E5-E6 ranks because there are no "positions" and if they make rank they are out. They like their jobs too much to get out. Same thing with officers -- you can promote yourself out of a job and position.... Why do you think you read about early retirements be offered and if you have so many years in this rank then you must retire... no place to keep folks.... We push our most valuable assets out....

I can't believe how easy it is for folks to play Monday morning quarterback. If you are in a store or walking into a store and someone short guy enters or is in to rob it with a gun, are you going to jump the guy with the gun -- after all you are a guy so you must be macho .... It is way to easy to play to cast judgement. What is sadder is that these two guys are probably harder on themselves than you are being on them, and they were there.....

No one knows how those police officers ended up where they were. Was the description accurate, were they told the shooter was still in the building? People are running/moving everywhere - did he blend in?? Early morning folks are everywhere? Just like the military -- until you are the one taking fire or threatened it is easy to cast judgement on another's actions.





If you had read my earlier posts you wpuld have seen that I said many of the things you were informing me of. Having been in both the military and law enforcement I can tell you it doesn't work the same. You should also note my most recent post on the matter were I pointed out that the shooter did not appear to be where they were lead to believe he was and were surprised at coming up on him then and there.

(in reply to stormy66)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 5:16:25 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

They can usually bide their time and make the takedown at a time and place of their chosing.


I am no expert that’s for sure but one of my pet peeves in mass shootings has been the police reluctance to engage the assailants. They always want to wait for back up... surround and secure the area...I applaud these officers... They did not hold back afraid for their personal safety... They charged in...found the assailant and stopped him before he could kill more people. It could have been much worse except for the quick response and bravery of the officers.

Yes thank God no bystander was killed and there was some luck involved that there was not... but they do not deserve criticism...only praise.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/26/2012 6:05:29 PM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 5:32:27 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

35 out of 50 spread over ranges from 5 2 25 yds.


Could you clarify what you mean by this?

Also, how much paid time do they spend training to acquire the skills they're testing?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



They fire 50 rds some 6 at 5 yds 6 at 7 yds etc out to 25 yds 50 need to hit a standard FBI silhouette . They are provided one box (50 rds) per month. As for time spent It is whatever they need. I hadn't shot in two years when I tried it and got 96%, both misses because my finger slipped.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 5:36:17 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

They can usually bide their time and make the takedown at a time and place of their chosing.


I am no expert that’s for sure but one of my pet peeves in mass shootings has been the police reluctance to engage the assailants. They always want to wait for back up... surround and secure the area...I applaud these officers... They did not hold back afraid for their personal safety... They charged in...found the assailant and stopped him before he could kill more people. It could have been much worse except for the quick response and bravery of the officers.

Yes think God no bystander was killed and there was some luck involved that there was not... but they do not deserve criticism...only praise.

Butch

Six of the injured were hit by fragments of bulletts.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 5:59:10 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I understand that...but they were not killed...who knows how many more innocent unarmed fellow workers he would have killed.

How many lives may have been saved if police acted the way the NY cops did at Columbine or Virginia Tech... or the recent murders in Norway?

Speed in response is the most important factor in at least disrupting the killing.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 100
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