RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (Full Version)

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daddysprop247 -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/19/2006 7:52:04 PM)

the phrase submissive sadist is an oxymoron imo. it is not possible for one who is submissive by nature (which defines "a" submissive imo, not the desire to submit) to be sadistic or have any sadistic desires or urges.
however as a slave does not have to be a submissive, it is possible for a slave to also be a sadist, and if that is something the slave's Master appreciates and enjoys, then more power to the both of them. but to call such a person submissive would be a lie.



justheather -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 6:37:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

the phrase submissive sadist is an oxymoron imo. it is not possible for one who is submissive by nature (which defines "a" submissive imo, not the desire to submit) to be sadistic or have any sadistic desires or urges.
however as a slave does not have to be a submissive, it is possible for a slave to also be a sadist, and if that is something the slave's Master appreciates and enjoys, then more power to the both of them. but to call such a person submissive would be a lie.


A submissive can not be sadistic, in your opinion, but a slave, who is not submissive in your opinion, can be sadistic?

I can appreciate that you have difficulty wrapping yourself around the idea of a submissive being sadistic...but consider for a moment the following concepts, if you will...

Sadism and Masochism exist without Dominance and Submission.
Dominance and Submission exist without Sadism and Masochism.

They often share beds, but are not requisite parts of a greater whole.

There is also, obviously, the issue of putting labels on things in general. I felt a strong visceral reaction when my master changed my profile category to "Switch" from "Submissive" because for a brief instant I thought that made me somehow "less submissive" than I was the instant before he changed it.
This, I quickly realised, was kind of, well, ridiculous, considering I was still standing in the same spot with the same devotion to him I had before the label was changed.

If you put a sticker that says "Great for Snacking Right out of the Box!" on a box of breakfast cereal does it cease to taste good in milk?

And I think this is a lovely example of people define the same terms (here it's "submissive" and "slave") in any number of unique ways and still manage to breathe the same air and live their respecive kinky lives without the planet blowing up.

We have many threads here that refer to "slave" as sort of the ultimate in submission. You, however, are saying that a slave is not someone who is necessarily submissive but just is what she is, a slave. I find this a new and interesting idea and would love to hear more about your ideas...Im not sure I understand what, exactly, a slave [is] according to your understanding, except that s/he isnt a submissive, and she can be a sadist... would you be willing to offer further explanation?



(edited to properly spell "splain")



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 6:45:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather
We have many threads here that refer to "slave" as sort of the ultimate in submission. You, however, are saying that a slave is not someone who is necessarily submissive but just is what she is, a slave. I find this a new and interesting idea and would love to hear more about your ideas...Im not sure I understand what, exactly, a slave [is] according to your understanding, except that s/he isnt a submissive, and she can be a sadist... would you be willing to offer further explaination?


For many people, they consider themselves a slave in orientation- as in, their primary relationship needs to be one in which they have no ultimate authority and act as the slave, but have NO submissive leanings, no personality traits or service desires or any of the "traditional" submissive traits or motivations that we usually find in a submissive.
 
Some people see this as BS- basically people not being comfortable with their submission so that they have to do some language gymnastics.  Some people see it as a valid dilineation between submissive personality and slave orientation.
 
Prop seems to have her definitions boxed up in such a way that a submissive cannot exude any traits or characteristics that she has not placed into her "submissive box."  So when a person DOES exude a trait not included in the box...they are not submissive.



darkinshadows -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 7:57:13 AM)

quote:

For many people, they consider themselves a slave in orientation- as in, their primary relationship needs to be one in which they have no ultimate authority and act as the slave, but have NO submissive leanings, no personality traits or service desires or any of the "traditional" submissive traits or motivations that we usually find in a submissive.

 
Just for the sake of discussion - I can understand this thought process - but how can a slave have no personality traits or service desires yet be a sadist? 
 
Peace and Rapture



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 8:00:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
Just for the sake of discussion - I can understand this thought process - but how can a slave have no personality traits or service desires yet be a sadist? 
 
Peace and Rapture


I'm not understanding your question?



darkinshadows -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 8:08:04 AM)

If a slave has no personality traits and sadism is a personality trait - if one believes a slave has none - how can a slave be a sadist?
(I do believe slaves can be sadists - I am just trying to work out the thought process here of that particular reasoning - unless I am misunderstanding the statement)
 
Peace and Rapture



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 8:15:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
If a slave has no personality traits and sadism is a personality trait
Sorry my English was fractured.  I mean "a slave has no personality traits stereotypically applied to submissives"  They still HAVE personality traits, just not those particular ones.
 
 
quote:

if one believes a slave has none - how can a slave be a sadist?
IMO sadism isn't a personality trait at all. 



darkinshadows -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 8:21:28 AM)

quote:

Sorry my English was fractured.  I mean "a slave has no personality traits stereotypically applied to submissives"  They still HAVE personality traits, just not those particular ones.

OK... I get what you meant now.
 
quote:

IMO sadism isn't a personality trait at all. 
I don't necessarily think it is one either - but I am not entirely sure what it 'is' myself.  I am still open to that thought...
 
Peace and Rapture



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 8:23:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
I don't necessarily think it is one either - but I am not entirely sure what it 'is' myself.  I am still open to that thought...
 
Peace and Rapture
It's a turn-on.  To me sadism is gaining direct pleasure from the actual suffering of another person.  It's like schaudenfreude (think I spelled that right), except it's not so much a "relief at it not being you" but more a direct pleasure in the actual suffering of someone else.



darkinshadows -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 8:31:21 AM)

quote:

It's a turn-on.  To me sadism is gaining direct pleasure from the actual suffering of another person.  It's like schaudenfreude (think I spelled that right), except it's not so much a "relief at it not being you" but more a direct pleasure in the actual suffering of someone else.

Now, that is what sadism is to me.  But to me, that is a selfish act, I am concentrating on me - of course the masochist involved is gaining pleasure too, but its still selfish.  So that said - I am constantly told that slaves are involved in their Owners pleasure or requests - how can a slave be a sadist if sadsim is an act of the self?  I can see submissives having the ability because as the concensus seems to dictate, submissives have free will/self decision.
 
Peace and Rapture



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 8:39:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
So that said - I am constantly told that slaves are involved in their Owners pleasure or requests - how can a slave be a sadist if sadsim is an act of the self?  I can see submissives having the ability because as the concensus seems to dictate, submissives have free will/self decision.
 
Peace and Rapture
Cuz the idea that slaves aren't doing it for their own fulfillment as well is BS.  Slaves consent to relationships they know will fulfill THEM, they want THEIR desires and wants and needs met. 
 
That doesn't make it not slavery.  I think we all agree that if a master says "no playing as a sadist" then obviously there will be no playing as a sadist.
 
But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong or bad with a slave having a particular desire or want that not's aligned with the masters.  A slave could want to have a baby, or go to college, or cottage cheese for dinner.  A slave having their OWN personal desires and wants isn't a bad slave.
 
As long as they obey and ACT according to the rules of the master.  Many masters ENCOURAGE their slaves to act upon their own independent desires.



darkinshadows -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 8:47:14 AM)

quote:

A slave having their OWN personal desires and wants isn't a bad slave.
 
As long as they obey and ACT according to the rules of the master.  Many masters ENCOURAGE their slaves to act upon their own independent desires.
Yup - coz then you(generic) are getting into the onetruewayism of slavery.  Its just a pleasent change to see someone say what you just said - and not the guilt trip statements you see flung around quite often.
 
Thanks Em
 
Peace and Rapture



enthralled -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 9:07:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

For those who submit or who want to submit in your relationship and who are also sadistic, how did you discover you were sadistic; do you identify as a switch; do you also enjoy dominating others?  Basically, I know that I do not have to fit in a particular box because I am a slave in my relationship.  I would just really like to hear about other people’s experiences in discovering sadism while being submissive. 


I've known that I had sadistic tendencies for a while but I didnt act on them until about two years ago. I had many masochist friends that had no top/Dom to play with and no one they trusted sooooo.....
I had the good fortune of having a masochist friend that agreed to let me experiment on her. Seeing her reactions and knowing that *I* was the one that caused them was such a huge rush for me. I can be mentally sadistic or physically, however one wants to play.
In the past two years, I have learned what I can about different implements of torture ... everything from the Wartenburg wheel to needle play to now learning to use a singletail whip.
I identify as a submissive but I get lots of derogatory comments here and elsewhere online over the fact that I top. I've been told that I'm not a 'real submissive' or that the dominant is afraid I'll try to eventually top him.... they can't grasp the difference between 'topping' and domination.
For people that need me to have a label ..... I dont consider myself a 'switch' as in the general definition; however, I will say that I am a BDSM switch ... but I'm a D/s submissive ... period!
I have no interest in owning or controlling anyone .... I just want to make them wiggle! [;)]

~enthralled



KnightofMists -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 4:31:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadowsNow, that is what sadism is to me.  But to me, that is a selfish act, I am concentrating on me - of course the masochist involved is gaining pleasure too, but its still selfish.  So that said - I am constantly told that slaves are involved in their Owners pleasure or requests - how can a slave be a sadist if sadsim is an act of the self?  I can see submissives having the ability because as the concensus seems to dictate, submissives have free will/self decision.


your premise seems to indicate that being a slave is suppose to be the ultimate selfless act....  and since you consider Sadism a selfish act... the two can't co-exist.

Consider that a slave is not a selfless Act.  A person that is fulfilled to be a slave in a Master/slave relationship is in of it selfish act of fulfillment.  Once you realize that Selfish or Selfless has no direct corelation with Master or slave.  You might consider the mixture of Slave/Submission mixed with a Sadism in a different light.



KnightofMists -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (6/20/2006 5:36:37 PM)

At the risk of appearing to put people into a box... 

                                        Top
                                          |
                                          |
                                          |
D/s>    Dominant--------------------------- Submissive
                                          |
                                          |
                                          |
                                     Bottom
                                        
                                         ^
                                        The
                                        Play



Two dynamics within the lifestyle that I consider are D/s and The Play.  Generally speaking we try to keep people in boxes or labels that we understand.  In fact rarely does anyone fit into one box all the time.  Where we on the diagram I showed above is dependent on our personality, needs, desires, relationships and many other factors.  We will not just rest at one specific point in this x and y axis.  I am sure that it would be easier for many if we just picked a spot and stayed there.  But, we shift within a range in a given relationship.  We shift dependent on the relationship we are looking at of our various relationships.   It's my opinion that to often we attempt to peg selves and others to a specific point and try to view our life and others from that sole point.  When things have shifted from that point we become stress, annoyed and even confused.  We are not static beings, we evolve and change and taking view points that are static only cheat us out of growth.


General



daddysprop247 -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (7/4/2006 10:13:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

the phrase submissive sadist is an oxymoron imo. it is not possible for one who is submissive by nature (which defines "a" submissive imo, not the desire to submit) to be sadistic or have any sadistic desires or urges.
however as a slave does not have to be a submissive, it is possible for a slave to also be a sadist, and if that is something the slave's Master appreciates and enjoys, then more power to the both of them. but to call such a person submissive would be a lie.


A submissive can not be sadistic, in your opinion, but a slave, who is not submissive in your opinion, can be sadistic?

I can appreciate that you have difficulty wrapping yourself around the idea of a submissive being sadistic...but consider for a moment the following concepts, if you will...

Sadism and Masochism exist without Dominance and Submission.
Dominance and Submission exist without Sadism and Masochism.

They often share beds, but are not requisite parts of a greater whole.

There is also, obviously, the issue of putting labels on things in general. I felt a strong visceral reaction when my master changed my profile category to "Switch" from "Submissive" because for a brief instant I thought that made me somehow "less submissive" than I was the instant before he changed it.
This, I quickly realised, was kind of, well, ridiculous, considering I was still standing in the same spot with the same devotion to him I had before the label was changed.

If you put a sticker that says "Great for Snacking Right out of the Box!" on a box of breakfast cereal does it cease to taste good in milk?

And I think this is a lovely example of people define the same terms (here it's "submissive" and "slave") in any number of unique ways and still manage to breathe the same air and live their respecive kinky lives without the planet blowing up.

We have many threads here that refer to "slave" as sort of the ultimate in submission. You, however, are saying that a slave is not someone who is necessarily submissive but just is what she is, a slave. I find this a new and interesting idea and would love to hear more about your ideas...Im not sure I understand what, exactly, a slave [is] according to your understanding, except that s/he isnt a submissive, and she can be a sadist... would you be willing to offer further explanation?



(edited to properly spell "splain")


 
hi justheather...my apologies for the delay in responding, i don't get to the boards as much as i would like. what is a slave? well, my definition of slave comes from basically any standard dictionary: one who is the property of another. if one is not owned (and therefore controlled) by another, then that person is not a slave imo. a slave may also be a submissive, as i am. however submission does not define slavery...ownership does. i didn't realize this was a new or revolutionary idea...seems pretty common sense to me, but with so many redefining words to fit their preferences, i guess it can seem confusing.
 
you are correct in that sadism and masochism exist without Dominance and submission...in fact it's one of my biggest pet peeves when people lump them all together as if they're all in the same family or under one "umbrella". however, i say that a submissive cannot also be a sadist because i define submissive as a personality trait, not by any particular acts. one cannot simultaneously be submissive natured and sadistic...just as one cannot simulataneously be Dominant natured and masochistic. just as there is a difference between a masochist and a submissive, there is a difference between a bottom (or person who simply gets off on being told what to do) and a submissive.



Bearlee -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (7/4/2006 10:46:32 AM)

Y’all know how some submissives are always pushing to get topped…even by submissives; well, I fell for it.  The first time I tried topping a guy, I did so with a mutual friend of ours; a Domme.  The three of us had a BLAST.  From there, I just got more and more into it.  It’s almost like doing things to myself, though; I feel I know exactly what he’s feeling and I love to push it. It thrilled me to do things to him that would have had me swooning, were I in his sho…err…cuffs.  Perhaps what it is is that I like the Power Exchange; period.  I dunno, but I sure do get sadistic.
 
Oddly, what has about ruined it for me is getting bullied at that I won’t take more control.  While I may be sadistic, I’m just not very dominant.  I totally love swinging a flogger full out and marking a boy’s butt up with a cane or dragging a knife across his anus or using it to peel a ‘skin’ of wax off his torso; but I’m not so interested in trying to dominate him.
 
As far as switching goes…for awhile I had two active profiles; one submissive, one as a Top…I don’t switch; ever.  Not with the same person, I mean.  I just couldn’t…



Slipstreme -> RE: Submissives Discovering Sadism (7/4/2006 12:54:54 PM)

quote:

the phrase submissive sadist is an oxymoron imo. it is not possible for one who is submissive by nature (which defines "a" submissive imo, not the desire to submit) to be sadistic or have any sadistic desires or urges.


And what of the Dominant Masochist? :P Something to think about. There is always a yin to someone's yang: the perfect match, whether or not D/s or S&M is involved.

I am a sadomasochistic Dominant, loving both sides of pain play. I have seen the eyes light up in my submissives as they watch me under their manipulations. I have also brought out the sadistic side of my slave, something before meeting me, she didn't know she could do to either of her Masters, and deepened her masochism. So it is not only possible, it just is.

Food for thought.




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