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What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 4:34:36 AM   
Kirata


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In all of the discussions centering on the harm that has been done by firearms in the hands of disturbed individuals, little attention seems to be given to the other side of the issue.

Victim resistance can be passive or verbal, but much of it is active and forceful. Potentially, the most consequential form of forceful resistance is armed resistance, especially resistance with a gun. This form of resistance is worthy of special attention for many reasons, both policy-related and scientific. The policy-related reasons are obvious: if self-protection with a gun is commonplace, it means that any form of gun control that disarms large numbers of prospective victims, either altogether, or only in certain times and places where victimization might occur, will carry significant social costs in terms of lost opportunities for self-protection.

The tables below (continued in second post) present the findings of studies of defensive gun use.




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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 4:37:05 AM   
Kirata


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Since as many as 400,000 people a year use guns in situations where the defenders claim that they "almost certainly" saved a life by doing so, this result cannot be dismissed as trivial. If even one-tenth of these people are accurate in their stated perceptions, the number of lives saved by victim use of guns would still exceed the total number of lives taken with guns. It is not possible to know how many lives are actually saved this way, for the simple reason that no one can be certain how crime incidents would have turned out had the participants acted differently than they actually did. But surely this is too serious a matter to simply assume that practically everyone who says he believes he saved a life by using a gun was wrong.

Source: Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University

K.



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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 5:04:59 AM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		I am sorry K, but with some people, other victims do not count.

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 5:14:41 AM   
Just0Plain0Mike


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Status: offline 		I completely agree with your post. I've said this before, and been mocked for it by certain people, but I've had at least two instances where having a gun prevented me from being robbed/carjacked, hurt, or potentially killed. This was without having to resort to firing, or even drawing, my weapon. I just made it known that I was armed and willing to defend myself, and that defused the situations. So having a gun, even one with a dreaded "high capacity magazine", doesn't turn you into a wanton killer. It doesn't make you trigger happy. It just gives you more options for getting out of a bad situation.

I keep hearing the argument that because the US is an armed society, that the criminal is just as likely to also have a weapon. Actually they're probably more likely to have one. However, most criminals don't like dealing with a situation where they might get hurt. They don't want to go toe to toe with someone. They don't want to risk a shoot-out. They want to get what they came for with minimal risk. So regardless of what some would like to believe, if you are armed, and make it clear that you are ready and willing to use it, most criminals will back off. The ones that don't? Well I don't think they're the type I'd like to run into armed or not.

< Message edited by Just0Plain0Mike -- 1/26/2013 5:24:12 AM >

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 5:18:53 AM   
Yachtie


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Status: offline 		K, I can hear heads exploding.

Damn fine job

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 5:44:20 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Status: offline 		See, but you guys aren't thinking the right way (pun intended). People who are willing to use a gun to defend themselves are the wrong kind of people and have no place in a civilized society.

No, what's important is the rhetoric about "victims". You see, it's more important to be a victim than to be the kind of person who takes personal responsibility for their actions. I mean, where's the sympathy in that?

And let's not forget that criminals have rights, too; other than to a swift trial and a defense attorney. They have a right to impose themselves upon sheeple that have bleated their consent to a government that has removed their weapons with the promise: We will protect you from foreign enemies (with our military) and criminals (with police departments). Remember: When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!

God bless the United States of America!



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 1/26/2013 5:45:39 AM >

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 6:08:22 AM   
DomKen


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The one and only even remotely accurate survey of defensive gun use, the National Crime Victimization Survey, which is based on face to face interviews done by Census Bureau employees shows that the defensive use of guns is much lower than the phone surveys used in this journal article. As a matter of fact the article spends an early section trying to handwave away the facts and trying to justify using a random phone sample with no attempts to verify the claims made which is a valid survey about opinions but not about facts.

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 8:34:47 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR

The one and only even remotely accurate survey of defensive gun use, the National Crime Victimization Survey, which is based on face to face interviews done by Census Bureau employees shows that the defensive use of guns is much lower than the phone surveys used in this journal article. As a matter of fact the article spends an early section trying to handwave away the facts and trying to justify using a random phone sample with no attempts to verify the claims made which is a valid survey about opinions but not about facts.


So. . . the chart does not count because it does not fit your reality. Great. Good of you to open your mind.


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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 8:49:12 AM   
Nosathro


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Status: offline 		Ah here we go again.............. Note the phase "Implied Number of def. gun use" Also the study is dated...1994, find something more recent.....How about between 2000 - 2008 86,112 died due to gun violance...now those are victims, not some...jerk (putting it mildly) who scared that someone will take their toys away.
To me it only shows what little value human life has for some here.
http://sbcoalition.org/2011/04/gun-violence-and-the-census-sobering-statistics/

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 1/26/2013 9:01:30 AM >

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 9:07:44 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Ah here we go again.............. Note the phase "Implied Number of def. gun use" Also the study is dated...1994, find something more recent.....How about between 2000 - 2008 86,112 died due to gun violance...now those are victims, not some...jerk (putting it mildly) who scared that someone will take their toys away.
To me it only shows what little value human life has for some here.
http://sbcoalition.org/2011/04/gun-violence-and-the-census-sobering-statistics/


Are you suggesting someone who is threatened and manages to scare off the attacker isn't a victim. And what difference does it make if the study was in 1994? It still shows that there are a lot of victims who didn't end up dead because they had the means to protect themselves. Sometimes I think the anti gun nuts are hoping people die from guns because they think it helps their arguments. They don't give a shit about the victims. They only care about making their point.

< Message edited by thishereboi -- 1/26/2013 9:08:12 AM >

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 9:18:57 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
Sometimes I think the anti gun nuts are hoping people die from guns because they think it helps their arguments. They don't give a shit about the victims. They only care about making their point.


Quite so. I'd say such is a form of mental illness myself. More noble the victimhood to be carried by six than, say, tuck one's children in bed one more time because you did not allow yourself to be carried by six.

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 9:24:32 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR

The one and only even remotely accurate survey of defensive gun use, the National Crime Victimization Survey, which is based on face to face interviews done by Census Bureau employees shows that the defensive use of guns is much lower than the phone surveys used in this journal article. As a matter of fact the article spends an early section trying to handwave away the facts and trying to justify using a random phone sample with no attempts to verify the claims made which is a valid survey about opinions but not about facts.


So. . . the chart does not count because it does not fit your reality. Great. Good of you to open your mind.


No the chart is irrelevant because it does not reflect reality. The chart is data from a bunch of phone surveys. Do you really think asking random people over the phone, with no attempt at verifying the facts of the claims, is a proper way to measure how often something occurs?

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 9:48:48 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Do you really think asking random people over the phone, with no attempt at verifying the facts of the claims, is a proper way to measure how often something occurs?

Yes.


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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 9:59:18 AM   
punisher440


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To me,this sums it up in a nut shell...




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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 10:00:14 AM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Why are phone surveys valid, as referred by you in popularity of the president or someone running for that office, but not valid in this instance?

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 10:06:41 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata





Since as many as 400,000 people a year use guns in situations where the defenders claim that they "almost certainly" saved a life by doing so, this result cannot be dismissed as trivial. If even one-tenth of these people are accurate in their stated perceptions, the number of lives saved by victim use of guns would still exceed the total number of lives taken with guns. It is not possible to know how many lives are actually saved this way, for the simple reason that no one can be certain how crime incidents would have turned out had the participants acted differently than they actually did. But surely this is too serious a matter to simply assume that practically everyone who says he believes he saved a life by using a gun was wrong.

Source: Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University

K.



I saw an article last week that indicated that the number of times guns are used to stop crimes is closer to 800,000 per year but their source is the FBI

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 10:11:51 AM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		I have found a number of articles saying that with gun ownership being up, violent crime statistics are down according to the FBI, but I dare not post links because the articles also quote NRA spokesmen.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 10:24:19 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I have found a number of articles saying that with gun ownership being up, violent crime statistics are down according to the FBI, but I dare not post links because the articles also quote NRA spokesmen.

Latest FBI Crime Statistics

The incidence of crime nationwide decreased again, according to our just released Crime in the United States report. Overall, the estimated volume of violent crimes in 2010 dropped 6 percent compared to the 2009 figure, the fourth consecutive year it has declined. For the eighth consecutive year, the volume of property crimes went down as well—2.7 percent.




Gun crime continues to decrease, despite increase in gun ownership

Despite increases in gun ownership, gun crimes continued to decrease in the United States for the fourth straight year in 2010, according to the FBI... At the same time that firearms murders were dropping, gun sales were surging. In 2009, FBI background checks for guns increased by 30 percent over the previous year, while firearms sales in large retail outlets increased by almost 40 percent. The number of applications for concealed carry permits jumped across the country as well.

K.



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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 10:26:53 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I have found a number of articles saying that with gun ownership being up, violent crime statistics are down according to the FBI, but I dare not post links because the articles also quote NRA spokesmen.

understood I think that is why I didn't post that link

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RE: What about the other victims? - 1/26/2013 10:36:19 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Why are phone surveys valid, as referred by you in popularity of the president or someone running for that office, but not valid in this instance?

One measures opinion the other attempts to measure facts. We know that in many instances people lie when interviewed by pollsters but the lies are much less common when asking about opinions versus facts. A fairly well known example is the difference in viewership of PBS between what is reported by people keeping logbooks versus the ones with automatic tracking by set top boxes.

The face to face survey which includes identifying info and attempts to verify claims of using guns for defence result in much lower rates than the anonymous over the phone surveys in the above charts.

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