Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (Full Version)

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Hillwilliam -> Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 8:28:04 AM)

Hang with me on this and follow the logic.

According to the Religious anti-choice folks, the soul enters the fertilized egg at conception therefore the fertilized egg is a human. There's even an artist's rendering of it on conservapedia.com .

Let's look at the theoretical entity known as "Soul"
We 'know' a few things about souls.
Only humans have one.
One to a customer. Humans are only allowed one soul (multiple personality disorder notwithstanding)
There are no 'partial souls'. You either have one or you don't.

Let's examine the process by which a monozygotic (identical) twin forms.

The egg is fertilized.
The egg begins dividing to form a blastocyst.
During this process, the group of cells splits and we get 2 (or more) embryos.
BUT there is only 1 'soul'.
This leaves 3 possibilities.

A. There is no such thing as a 'soul' and the argument is moot.
B. At least 1 of every set of twins is 'soulless' and inhuman.
C. The concept of 'ensoulment at conception' is false.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 8:44:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Hang with me on this and follow the logic.
According to the Religious anti-choice folks, the soul enters the fertilized egg at conception therefore the fertilized egg is a human. There's even an artist's rendering of it on conservapedia.com .
Let's look at the theoretical entity known as "Soul"
We 'know' a few things about souls.
Only humans have one.
One to a customer. Humans are only allowed one soul (multiple personality disorder notwithstanding)
There are no 'partial souls'. You either have one or you don't.
Let's examine the process by which a monozygotic (identical) twin forms.
The egg is fertilized.
The egg begins dividing to form a blastocyst.
During this process, the group of cells splits and we get 2 (or more) embryos.
BUT there is only 1 'soul'.
This leaves 3 possibilities.
A. There is no such thing as a 'soul' and the argument is moot.
B. At least 1 of every set of twins is 'soulless' and inhuman.
C. The concept of 'ensoulment at conception' is false.


Through God, all things are possible. [:D]

Follow this logic.

Where did the soul come from? How did the fertilized egg acquire the soul in the first place? If you can imagine the scenario that as soon as the egg is fertilized, it acquires a soul, then how is it tough to see that as soon as it splits into two separate entities, they both have souls?

I'm not going to argue that humanity is conferred at fertilization. I'm just challenging that there are more than the 3 possibilities you listed.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 8:45:02 AM)

You left of:

D. When a twin's egg is 'ensouled' it happens with 2 souls, and that is why the egg later splits into two different people.






FunCouple5280 -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 8:48:01 AM)

Could they share a soul? I mean twins sometimes speak there own language and seem to feel everything the other is even when they are seperated....... Just saying, if you believe in all of that.



tazzygirl -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 8:48:42 AM)

To play devil's advocate for a moment... not all twins are the result of a single fertilized egg.

Now to stop playing that role. Almost half of the fertilized eggs end up as a "miscarriage". What happens to those lost souls? I dont mean the ones that are implanted then lost later during the pregnancy, though, if we want to get technical, we can say those as well. Surely "God" wouldnt waste a soul on those since he knows the pregnancy wont come to a favorable outcome. But many fertilized eggs - almost half - never become implanted.



mnottertail -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 8:49:38 AM)

That bond is not a soul, as 'souls' we are not alike, my twin and me. (euphonically damaging, but correct, I would have liked to use I instead of me.)

Cuz Don and I did all that.  However; it lessened as we've grown older and haven't been in close intimate contact with each other for years.



Rule -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 8:50:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
D. When a twin's egg is 'ensouled' happens done with 2 souls, and that is why the egg later splits into two different people.

I discern intelligence.



FunCouple5280 -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 8:51:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

To play devil's advocate for a moment... not all twins are the result of a single fertilized egg.

Now to stop playing that role. Almost half of the fertilized eggs end up as a "miscarriage". What happens to those lost souls? I dont mean the ones that are implanted then lost later during the pregnancy, though, if we want to get technical, we can say those as well. Surely "God" wouldnt waste a soul on those since he knows the pregnancy wont come to a favorable outcome. But many fertilized eggs - almost half - never become implanted.



Interesting point. What if 'God' didn't want to waste any souls at all? Meaning no one is born with one at, it is earned at the end of life.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 8:51:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
But many fertilized eggs - almost half - never become implanted.


Really? That many?

*grumbles*

So fucking unfair that despite those odd, and a perfectly fine, perfectly placed IUD I still managed to get pregnant within 3 months of stopping the pill...



DesideriScuri -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 8:53:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
To play devil's advocate for a moment... not all twins are the result of a single fertilized egg.
Now to stop playing that role. Almost half of the fertilized eggs end up as a "miscarriage". What happens to those lost souls? I dont mean the ones that are implanted then lost later during the pregnancy, though, if we want to get technical, we can say those as well. Surely "God" wouldnt waste a soul on those since he knows the pregnancy wont come to a favorable outcome. But many fertilized eggs - almost half - never become implanted.


To counter the DA here, HW set the stage with a description of identical twins, not all twins.

The "lost souls" are put back at the head of the line at the soul dispensary.

Or, maybe those are the souls in Purgatory, going through the initial stages of gestation for punishment. LOL



Hillwilliam -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 8:57:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

You left of:

D. When a twin's egg is 'ensouled' it happens with 2 souls, and that is why the egg later splits into two different people.





Violates the "One to a customer" rule



Hillwilliam -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 9:00:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

Could they share a soul? I mean twins sometimes speak there own language and seem to feel everything the other is even when they are seperated....... Just saying, if you believe in all of that.

"No partial souls". If they share one, each would have to have half.
also, what happens when one twin dies. Does the other one keep the soul? What happens to the 'soulless' dead twin? What happens if one twin is evil and the other good. Where does the soul go? heaven or hell?



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 9:00:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

You left of:

D. When a twin's egg is 'ensouled' it happens with 2 souls, and that is why the egg later splits into two different people.





Violates the "One to a customer" rule


Only if it's actually a rule that eggs can only have one soul.

All we know that there is a "one to a customer" rule when it comes to people after birth. Maybe the "one to a costumer" doesn't apply to eggs, and the precise reason identical twins exists, and eggs sometimes split, is because two souls got 'stuck' in the same egg and it is unacceptable for them to be born that way.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 9:04:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

You left of:

D. When a twin's egg is 'ensouled' it happens with 2 souls, and that is why the egg later splits into two different people.





Violates the "One to a customer" rule


Only if it's actually a rule that eggs can only have one soul.

All we know that there is a "one to a customer" rule when it comes to people after birth. Maybe the "one to a costumer" doesn't apply to eggs, and the precise reason identical twins exists, and eggs sometimes split, is because two souls got 'stuck' in the same egg and it is unacceptable for them to be born that way.

If a fertilized egg is a full fledged person as some (I feel erroneously) claim, then it can only have one soul.
For it to have 2 for the hours or days before splitting would imply that a person can have 2 souls.



FunCouple5280 -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 9:08:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

Could they share a soul? I mean twins sometimes speak there own language and seem to feel everything the other is even when they are seperated....... Just saying, if you believe in all of that.

"No partial souls". If they share one, each would have to have half.
also, what happens when one twin dies. Does the other one keep the soul? What happens to the 'soulless' dead twin? What happens if one twin is evil and the other good. Where does the soul go? heaven or hell?



It is a torn soul till the other dies[;)]. If one is evil and the other good, well maybe the sould ditched the evil one, hence the evil twin[:D]



tazzygirl -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 9:09:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
But many fertilized eggs - almost half - never become implanted.


Really? That many?

*grumbles*

So fucking unfair that despite those odd, and a perfectly fine, perfectly placed IUD I still managed to get pregnant within 3 months of stopping the pill...


You are just an extremely fertile woman... lol.. and so was the father.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 9:13:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

If a fertilized egg is a full fledged person as some (I feel erroneously) claim, then it can only have one soul.
For it to have 2 for the hours or days before splitting would imply that a person can have 2 souls.


I don't think that follows.

It obviously does when you assume that the same 'rules' and 'laws' govern fetuses and eggs than do people after birth, but you have no proof for that theory one way or another.

It's possible that for an egg certain things are applicable and possible that aren't for people after birth.

You don't really know if the same 'rules' apply to eggs than do human beings after birth, so you have no basis to conclude that one thing follows from the other. The assumption that it's impossible for an egg to have two souls just because we assume to know (for the purpose of this thought experiment) that it's impossible for a person after birth to have two souls is completely unfounded. In fact, even if you assume that it's impossible for a person after birth to have two souls, that doesn't even implied that the same thing is impossible for eggs, let alone prove it.



tazzygirl -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 9:19:08 AM)

~FR

Gotta do that devil's advocate thing again.

What about those who are supposed to split but dont? I dont mean joined twins, but people who are born with part of a twin still inside them.

fetus in fetu

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/01/30/boy-has-twins-body-in-his-stomach/

http://www.payvand.com/news/11/jan/1306.html (a graphic photo so open with that knowledge)

And then we have the vanishing twin syndrome

http://americanpregnancy.org/multiples/vanishingtwin.html

Does the surviving twin have 2 souls now?



Gdamnit -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 9:19:52 AM)

If I were religious I'd say:

D. The soul splits too and becomes one whole soul for each child.

If I were religious. But I'm not (well... not exactly) so I won't. ;)



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Twins have no soul (an exercise in logic) (4/5/2013 9:24:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Does the surviving twin have 2 souls now?


Nope, two bodies, two souls, despite the bodies never totally separating.

When one of the twin's body dies, that twin's soul goes to wherever souls go. The other twin, whose body hasn't died, just keeps their soul where they've always had it.

That is, unless you'd argue that by eating another human's entire body you could assimilate their soul, but if that isn't the case, it shouldn't really matter where the in fetu twin's body is at the moment of death.





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