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Strictly talking about responding to a call and finding a person with a weapon who may or may not be disturbed for a variety of reasons, I'll repeat what I said at the beginning.

Sometimes it just isn't that easy.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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Strictly talking about responding to a call and finding a person with a weapon who may or may not be disturbed for a variety of reasons, I'll repeat what I said at the beginning.

Sometimes it just isn't that easy.

I understand it is not so easy. I would not wish to be in that situation as a cop. However, there were no other civilians present who were in danger. It would have been easy for the nearest officer to back out of harms way. A little patience and a calm manner might have diffused the moment. Police are trained to have patience with jumpers. Why not with one lone kid with a knife? Why aren't they trained to consider he might be schizophrenic? Forty one rounds in six seconds? That smacks of gang panic rather than police training, doncha think? Each cop fired ten rounds at a knife?

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
To me incidents like this suggest that there is something seriously wrong with the ways police are trained in the use of these weapons, and in the manner in which they are trained to respond to such challenges.

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ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
To me incidents like this suggest that there is something seriously wrong with the ways police are trained in the use of these weapons, and in the manner in which they are trained to respond to such challenges.

This is the first comment I agree with completely. As an apartment maintenance man, I've worked with police (in the form of opening doors for them so they didn't have to break my buildings) and, more recently, I've been on the receiving end of their treatment. In both cases, every last cop I encountered acted as if he were untouchable and on a mission from God and that anyone not wearing his uniform and a shield was beneath his notice. I realize that there is a certain personality type that is drawn to the job. But for that attitude to be so pervasive, it has to be training.

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Or are you simply projecting the attitude you would have if you could only get hold of a badge and a gun?

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ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Or are you simply projecting the attitude you would have if you could only get hold of a badge and a gun?

Instead of indulging in playground insults, why don't you show what expertise you have in order to make these grand pronouncements that police are always right to shoot first and forget everything else?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Lauderhill officers justified in shooting man 20 times, grand jury says
Every once in awhile a similar story appears in the news. Four police officers fired 41 rounds in six seconds at a 21 year old wielding a knife.

When Telasco called 911 after 1:30 a.m. he reported that a man with a knife was standing in his doorway and said "just come and do what you have to do." The description he gave was of himself.

Telasco ignored numerous demands to drop the knife and came within 15 feet of Officer Cella waving the knife in "a threatening manner," according to the grand jury's June 19 report.

"[All four officers] fired their department-issued weapons based upon the reasonable fear that Officer Michael Cella was in life-threatening danger due to the actions of Cedric Telasco," the report said.

Isn't there a more humane way of handling these situations?

Do you agree with grand jury's conclusion?

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Powergamz1
They are trained the way *you*, through your politicians, demand that they are trained and equipped.

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And no amount of training will make those Hollywood notions of kicking knives out of people's hands and rendering them unconscious with nerve pinches, work in the real world.

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The Taser deaths in custody have ranged from a couple of jolts to several, not 50, brought about largely by underlying medical conditions that the police couldn't know about (again, absent mind reading or other superpowers).

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ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

Legally speaking,
snip
They were simply following their training...

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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Powergamz1
They are trained the way *you*, through your politicians, demand that they are trained and equipped.

Like most citizens I have had zero input into the way police have been trained. Nor have I have demanded they are equipped with tasers or guns for that matter.

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And no amount of training will make those Hollywood notions of kicking knives out of people's hands and rendering them unconscious with nerve pinches, work in the real world.

A policewoman friend told me that they are trained to "never back down .... once a line is dawn in the sand, no matter what". So once an ultimatum is issued by police here, they will enforce it at all costs. I fail to see merit in such inflexible approaches. I can see how such inflexible approaches might contribute to the deaths we are discussing here.

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The Taser deaths in custody have ranged from a couple of jolts to several, not 50, brought about largely by underlying medical conditions that the police couldn't know about (again, absent mind reading or other superpowers).

I am not familiar with the situation in the US, but the deaths I am talking about include these:
"The 21-year-old had stolen a packet of biscuits from a convenience store and was delusional and behaving erratically after using a small amount of LSD. He died after police fired Tasers at him 14 times - seven of them within 51 seconds - following a chase. Coroner Mary Jerram said the actions of police were reckless and excessive, and constituted an abuse of police power.
She strongly recommended that disciplinary action be taken against five officers involved in the fatal confrontation."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-27/pic-recommends-police-be-charged-over-taser-death/4715690

"Kevin Spratt, 43, was tasered 14 times as he lay on the floor of the East Perth Watchhouse [police station] surrounded by nine police officers nearly five years ago, in August 2008.
Footage of the incident released in 2010 sparked international outrage.
It later emerged the incident was not isolated and Mr Spratt had been tasered 41 times over the week he was held in custody."
http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/police-charged-over-taser-incident-police-minister-20130411-2hnct.html
Remarkably, the police involved in the second incident above were acquitted of charges arising out of this incident by a court .

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

I don't see why they can't use crowd control shields or tasers or wooden pellets in this kind of situation.

Invariably, the grand jury finds in favor of the police.

Does the militarization of police mentality pose a creeping threat to people?

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

I don't see why they can't use crowd control shields or tasers or wooden pellets in this kind of situation.

Invariably, the grand jury finds in favor of the police.

Does the militarization of police mentality pose a creeping threat to people?

None of which may have been available...but 41 rounds does seem a little overkill...even if they did miss half the time. I understand shooting at center body mass to lessen misses that could hit others but hell why not just shoot him in the leg or foot or arm.

Butch

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Modern police in America are tightly restricted as to what they can carry, and what they can do by *public* policy set by elected and appointed officials. The public has the final say so in what the mayor tells the police chief.


And the quote from the policewoman would directly contradict policy in every jurisdiction in America. No ultimatum automatically authorizes the use of deadly force, only the narrow set of conditions spelled out in the US Supreme Court rulings (Garner, and Graham).

This allows for situation (like felony vehicle extractions) where refusal to obey a command may result in getting shot, but the police can *not* walk into a situation, say for example demanding ID, and then draw a line in the sand and use deadly force if someone merely refuses to give their name.

But then again, in America 14 is much closer to 'several' than to 50.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

None of which may have been available...but 41 rounds does seem a little overkill...even if they did miss half the time. I understand shooting at center body mass to lessen misses that could hit others but hell why not just shoot him in the leg or foot or arm.

Butch

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And I repeat, what training? PhDs in psychology? MDs in psychiatry for every single patrol officer in America? Ninja grandmaster skills? Are you going to pay for that?

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ORIGINAL: erieangel

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And I repeat, what training? PhDs in psychology? MDs in psychiatry for every single patrol officer in America? Ninja grandmaster skills? Are you going to pay for that?

There is a small program called Mental Health First Aid. Every police officer, fire fighter, doctor, school teacher and everybody who cares about their neighbors should find and take a course in Mental Health First Aid.


On a related note. A few weeks ago, in Oil City, PA, we had a similar occurrence. A 68 yr. old woman with mental health issues, became symptomatic one night. Her son, not knowing who else to call, phoned the police. When the police arrived, she was holding "a large kitchen knife" (this quote comes from the various reports I've heard on TV). She was shot in the center of the chest. State police are investigating the incident, but the Oil City police chief has said he supports the officer who shot and killed the woman and he doesn't believe his officer did anything wrong.

Nothing wrong? Couldn't he have shot her in the shoulder of the hand holding the knife? Or in the leg? Any place rather than center mass? A bullet any place rather than center mass would taken a 68 yr. old woman down. You shoot center mass only if you are trying to kill. But did they have to shoot at all? They knew she was mentally ill and having issues at that night--the son told them!!! He was looking for help to get her into the hospital, not looking for his mother to be treated like a deranged criminal and shot and killed.