RE: Difference between sub and slave.

RE: Difference between sub and slave. (Full Version)

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Kana -> RE: Difference between sub and slave. (9/30/2013 2:16:36 PM)
Yeah,LP, but you casually play.Right now,I don't and that makes all the difference in the world. If I'm playing with someone it implies consideration,which means I'm going to act and be the same me I always am. If they like that (And I do pretty good screening, with one notable recent failure[:(]),then maybe something more can happen. If not, then I'm saved us both time. Grins, and of course,when ya get down to brass tacks, the only label I really care about is mine. But ya'll know that. I will say this.I've had, because I let them,labels fuck me up in the past. Tried doing the whole treat em differently with a gal who was a "submissive," with the result that I never really felt comfortable,she never was sure of the ground I stood on (because I wasn't) and generally mangled what could have been a pretty good thing.I did some serious reflecting after that incident, took a look at myself and my actions and decided some shit needed to change. Besides, damn near every slave I've ever owned started as a sub and then just slowly slid into slavery as trust built and the relationship grew until the couldn't see being anything else to/for/by me Words are nebulous tricky doppleganger things-they morph and shift, change depending on who's doing the defining,their prior history, their worldview, a million intangibles. I just take the action. If she grooves to it, great.If not, well, not to be to nonchalant or crass or heartless or anything, but the one thing America does en masse is produce prime Grade A pussy, there's some other chica waiting round the corner. I just gotta take the turn.

RedMagic1 -> RE: Difference between sub and slave. (9/30/2013 3:00:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 One thing that might be said in favor of CastleRealm is that it was a labor of love, so to speak. And according to some it was fiction. This post summarizes what I know, and hypothesize, about the CastleRealm relationship between Colm and jade. http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4102638 I used to think it was 100% certain that jade never existed at all, but I've backed off of that position a little bit. There are too many people who played hearts with her online, and did other silly stuff. Colm would have had a full time job in maintaining a fake. Maybe he did that, of course -- lotsa fake women on the internet -- but it would have been hard. Also, the people who claimed to have information that proved she was a fake never came through for me when I asked to see specifics. One lady, who is extremely respected in the leather community, said that there was a lawsuit in which Colm had to admit that jade was fake. However, this lady offered to give me specific court docs on two separate occasions, and never did. I don't think she was lying to me, but I think it's likely that she told me something false that she was sure was true. Anyway, we may never know (or care) what really happened, unless someone hires a PI to definitively find a death certificate, or the lack of one. We've got a date, a location, and an extremely unusual cause of death. Honestly, I might spring for that someday, depending on the cost. I would enjoy being certain, one way or the other.

LadyPact -> RE: Difference between sub and slave. (9/30/2013 4:37:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana Yeah,LP, but you casually play.Right now,I don't and that makes all the difference in the world. If I'm playing with someone it implies consideration,which means I'm going to act and be the same me I always am. If they like that (And I do pretty good screening, with one notable recent failure[:(]),then maybe something more can happen. If not, then I'm saved us both time. I get that you don't play casually now. I'm more referencing the span of your experiences. quote: Grins, and of course,when ya get down to brass tacks, the only label I really care about is mine. But ya'll know that. We're good here. [:)] quote: I will say this.I've had, because I let them,labels fuck me up in the past. Tried doing the whole treat em differently with a gal who was a "submissive," with the result that I never really felt comfortable,she never was sure of the ground I stood on (because I wasn't) and generally mangled what could have been a pretty good thing.I did some serious reflecting after that incident, took a look at myself and my actions and decided some shit needed to change. Besides, damn near every slave I've ever owned started as a sub and then just slowly slid into slavery as trust built and the relationship grew until the couldn't see being anything else to/for/by me I'm not attempting to open the 'slaves are better than subs' can of worms. However, in saying the above, you are acknowledging that there was a difference. Whatever that difference was between where she started out and where she ended up, something during the space of that time is what (potentially) contributes to a different definition. quote: Words are nebulous tricky doppleganger things-they morph and shift, change depending on who's doing the defining,their prior history, their worldview, a million intangibles. I agree with this wholeheartedly. What really messes this up is the fact that different people set the bar in different places, especially when it comes to relationship status, personality, and role. Just because those bars are set in different places, doesn't mean that any given individual doesn't know what's on one side of the line and what's on the other. God knows we're never going to come to an agreement of where the bar belongs when we're discussing a group. Yeah, I person can call themselves whatever label they want. Over the years, I've learned to bite My tongue a lot a posts that say "I'm a brand new slave with no experience." It's just a case of their personal definition clashing with My own, but I still really don't jive with it. I don't see any difference in that than when it comes from the other side of the kneel and the "brand new Master with no experience" gets told he needs to get some. (There's that whole gender slant to this, too, but I'd be going way off track with that.) quote: I just take the action. If she grooves to it, great.If not, well, not to be to nonchalant or crass or heartless or anything, but the one thing America does en masse is produce prime Grade A pussy, there's some other chica waiting round the corner. I just gotta take the turn. I'll let you deal with the pussy. Not really My style. [;)]

ResidentSadist -> RE: Difference between sub and slave. (9/30/2013 4:43:56 PM)
[8\|] Hey now, jade was a "real true" slave . . . [:)] I like the way you summed her up urban legend that Colm created whether she was real and long distance or not. The consensus of her not being real is probably because of 14 sock puppets, everyone probably thought she was one too. As much evil as I credit Castlerealm for, I seriously think he had good intentions in the beginning. Then it all spun out of control when a world view from the internet was imposed on his narrow perspectives. I feel that may be why he created all the socks, for support on his view points. Good intentions or not, that place was a great source of misinformation.

Kana -> RE: Difference between sub and slave. (9/30/2013 7:38:10 PM)
quote: I'm not attempting to open the 'slaves are better than subs' can of worms. However, in saying the above, you are acknowledging that there was a difference. Whatever that difference was between where she started out and where she ended up, something during the space of that time is what (potentially) contributes to a different definition. Nah.They said they were submissive. Not me.I just treated em like the cunts they were/are andwaited for things to take their course. As they saw the consistency, the thought process, learned who and what I am and what drives me, the fear and lack of trust that was holding them backed slowly slipped away and they became what they always were, what they craved to be, they were just too shackled by self to know it, is all

JeffBC -> RE: Difference between sub and slave. (10/1/2013 5:23:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana Nah.They said they were submissive. Not me.I just treated em like the cunts they were/are and waited for things to take their course. As they saw the consistency, the thought process, learned who and what I am and what drives me, the fear and lack of trust that was holding them backed slowly slipped away and they became what they always were, what they craved to be, they were just too shackled by self to know it, is all Predictably, I agree. Hell, if you start with the fact that I think "submissive personalities are WAY more common that dominant ones" and then add in that I don't believe a "slave" is much more than a sub in a healthy relationship with a credible leader... well... there ya have it. On the other hand, I certainly agree with RS's point that there is some difference -- at least for Carol & I. That difference may be surface only, but it exists. Otherwise, it wouldn't be possible for Carol and I to go through phases where she is "not mine". That is me saying that she's not measuring up and so rejecting her for that role. At her core she is not changing so suddenly, but there is this question of motivation and applying herself to the task.

Kana -> RE: Difference between sub and slave. (10/1/2013 5:56:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: Kana Nah.They said they were submissive. Not me.I just treated em like the cunts they were/are and waited for things to take their course. As they saw the consistency, the thought process, learned who and what I am and what drives me, the fear and lack of trust that was holding them backed slowly slipped away and they became what they always were, what they craved to be, they were just too shackled by self to know it, is all Predictably, I agree. Hell, if you start with the fact that I think "submissive personalities are WAY more common that dominant ones" and then add in that I don't believe a "slave" is much more than a sub in a healthy relationship with a credible leader... well... there ya have it. On the other hand, I certainly agree with RS's point that there is some difference -- at least for Carol & I. That difference may be surface only, but it exists. Otherwise, it wouldn't be possible for Carol and I to go through phases where she is "not mine". That is me saying that she's not measuring up and so rejecting her for that role. At her core she is not changing so suddenly, but there is this question of motivation and applying herself to the task. Hey,I'm not saying there isn't a difference.I'm saying that I treat em the same despite what they call themselves [:)]

JeffBC -> RE: Difference between sub and slave. (10/1/2013 6:12:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana Hey,I'm not saying there isn't a difference.I'm saying that I treat em the same despite what they call themselves [:)] nod That part I understand. I really don't give a rats ass what someone calls themselves. For me it's all much more basic than some sort of assumed roles. If I find myself in a leadership position then I expect those following me to follow. Their BDSM titles and even their actual personality profiles mean nothing. The only thing that matters is whether or not they are a constructive member of the team. @RS My eschewing of the labels has nothing to do with political correctness. I suspect it has more to do with an outsider's viewpoint looking in and assessing the labels as useless. If I found myself in some sub-group wherein the labels had some reasonably broad agreement then I'd use them. For me it's all about understanding and communication. I'm just not attached enough to the BDSM labels to want to defend them.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Difference between sub and slave. (10/1/2013 6:36:22 AM)
FR: Of course labels are important, without them we could not communicate. But what is behind the label (what defines it) varies according to the labeler. Let's return to that tomato soup analogy and take it a few steps further. A person's definition ('labeling') of tomato soup might be good old fashioned Campbell's tomato soup. For this person, Campbell's defines tomato soup, nothing else will do. Another person may enjoy a generic or store brand of tomato soup just as much as the Campbells brand, or even prefer it. There is no getting over the fact that individual tastes vary, so what tastes just right to one person, the Campbells, does not taste right to another, and vice-versa. Than there is my version or label of what is tomato soup: Homemade using fresh tomatoes, of course. And homemade chicken stock, and fresh parsley and basil from my herb garden. For a food snob such as myself, no other version of tomato soup is worthy of the name. Though all of these foods are labeled 'tomato soup' -- to someone with discerning taste buds, they taste quite different, despite the common label. BTW: Whether or not you can appreciate the differences in these soups by taste alone is dependent on your taste buds, which you were born with. Tastes can be refined but only to a certain extent. And how does all this foodology relate to the sub/slave discussion? To illustrate that how one person defines slave and how another defines it varies according to the person doing the defining. You can argue that your definition is correct, but that is akin to arguing that Campbells tomato soup is the ONLY true tomato soup. When all you can really argue, is that Campbells is the only true tomato soup for you.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Difference between sub and slave. (10/1/2013 9:07:12 AM)
quote: What really messes this up is the fact that different people set the bar in different places, especially when it comes to relationship status, personality, and role. Just because those bars are set in different places, doesn't mean that any given individual doesn't know what's on one side of the line and what's on the other. God knows we're never going to come to an agreement of where the bar belongs...... I agree with this. I think we can all agree that there is a difference between a sub and a slave. But none of us will have a precise definition of where one ends and the other begins. Moreover, even if we could identify the precise place on the spectrum where the transition occurs, each of us would define it differently. I'm an engineer by degree, so I deal much more comfortably with quantifiable absolutes. I am not so comfortable with subjective topics that can't be quantified, or that the results can't be consistently replicated in a lab. In college, I struggled with psychology, not because I thought it was hard, but because I thought it was bullshit. Human behavior has as many permutations as there are people. Therefore, IMO, it's not a science, and shouldn't be discussed as though it were. And this whole sub versus slave discussion is like that for me. Both the definition and the behaviors are going to differ by individual. So discussing them is a point of frustration for an engineer like me who is much more comfortable with scientific absolutes. IMO, if the answer is different for each individual, then it's not much of an answer, and there's little value in discussing it. Because of the individualized nature of the answers, the question can never be resolved, and consensus can never be reached. So why waste time trying? But that's just how I see it. Others obviously feel that we CAN arrive at an agreed upon answer. I say, "Good luck with that."

CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: Difference between sub and slave. (10/1/2013 11:18:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ROPENHIGHHEELS Am I correct when I say that a submissive is a person with limits while a slave is a person without limits? When I see profiles on here which say "I'm looking for a submissive that's a slave". it makes me wonder if they have any clue about the lifestyle. Or is it my understanding of the two words that is wrong? Explanations are appreciated. I haven't read all of the posts in this thread yet, but I need to throw my two cents in before my steak (huge steak, btw) arrives. Then I'll be just reading instead of typing anything. To me, the quote I've highlighted in bold seems reasonable. Not all slaves have submissive personalities, if someone is looking for a slave who also has a submissive personality...why not advertise for what they want?

JeffBC -> RE: Difference between sub and slave. (10/1/2013 12:39:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 I agree with this. I think we can all agree that there is a difference between a sub and a slave. But none of us will have a precise definition of where one ends and the other begins. Moreover, even if we could identify the precise place on the spectrum where the transition occurs, each of us would define it differently. And before we start deciding what precise place on "the spectrum" the transition occurs at, it'd probably be useful to discuss what spectrum is being talked about. Are we discussing actual obedience? Are we discussing potential obedience? How about some emotional aspect like "a slave's heart"? Maybe we're discussing how big a dildo you can jam up their orifice? Possibly it's a measure of how much pain will be handled/accepted? As near as I know there are a lot of different measuring sticks being used.

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