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What has happened? - 8/15/2006 8:08:50 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?
 
Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?

< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 8/15/2006 8:09:17 AM >

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 8:18:42 AM   
windy135


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Status: offline 		Sounds like a wonderful time.  I guess it might be because some of us want to be trained and some of us don't.  There are so many people that want different things from this lifestyle.  We all take different paths finding out what it is we want.

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 8:19:13 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314
To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?


Alas the same way the rest of society has fallen into those faults. Laziness, rejection of old values without replacement by improved values.
 
quote:

Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?


As a community? I doubt it will happen.... but as individuals we each have that choise. Enough individuals do so and that is what the 'community' becomes.


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And it must follow, as the night the day,
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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 8:19:43 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
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From: Charleston, WV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?


It went the same place that all these things in everyday society went. It doesn't pertain to just this lifestyle.
 
quote:

Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?


Teach our children to know and act better...and ourselves as well.

Master Fire


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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 8:23:02 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		 I am not 50 years old, have only been involved with WIITWD  for a couple of years, so I do not know what you speak of, but everything gets reminisced as being better, more classy, and more refined that happened 50 years ago... perhaps it is just a sign that culture changed period. Women no longer wear dresses everywhere, men do not usually have to wear a suit to work, and you can go out to a nice restaurant wearing shorts and a Tshirt many places. Standards have been relaxed with language too, most people use the word "fuck" in casual conversation.Your version of what BDSM should be isn't going to be what everyone else thinks it should be, you cannot force others to go back to the "Good Ol Days". You can choose people to surround yourself that share your vision, you are a domme after all



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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 8:25:29 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?
 
Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?


I blame the "Oh it's all good. Now, don't make anyone wrong. and  Just do your own thing".  God forbid we hurt anyone's widdle feelings by enlightening them.

It's such a hodge-podge now.. that D/sBDSM is little more than a laughable freak show.

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I'm not inflatable.


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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 8:28:12 AM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?
 
Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?


I believe it is simply a reflection of our current society in general.

We now expect instant gratification, hense the popularity of credit card debt versus living within our means and OMG....saving for something special!!

We now have, especially our children, a new sense of entitlement that has never been seen before. Example: Rather than generic sneakers that cost $50.00 and would work just fine before they got destroyed by a 15 yo boy, he expects $140.00 name brand sneakers that will get destroyed in the same amount of time....or less.

We now, have the worst manners EVER! Rudeness seems cool.

We now, have no respect for our elders but dispose of them as soon as they become a burden.

I could go on and on but I will save the readers short attention spans created by computer games and
action programmes on tv. ( HUMOUR!!!!)


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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 8:29:46 AM   
RavenMuse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
you cannot force others to go back to the "Good Ol Days".


I certainly didn't read MH's OP as saying there needs to be a return to the ways of the past, but rather highlighting a small number of things OF the past that are lacking in much of todays community (Both online and off) and asking how those things can be re-introduced.

A step forward, learning from the past to improve the future, not returning to it.


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And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 8:36:27 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		Sigh...us darn kids...

Every generation looks back with the past as if it were the peak of civilization and looks to the future with disdain.

And when you wonder why the next generation "lacks respect"- it's because so many of you look at us and just tell us that we're driving the world into the ground.  Would you respect someone who did that? 

Instead of repeating what your forefathers have done for thousands of years...why not take the higher perspective and realize that the past wasn't that great, the present is what it is, and that each generation forms its own values and rituals.  People used to think that unwed women were blights upon society and that allowing women to walk around without being married properly was a sign that the values of the world were going downhill.

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 8:37:24 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I did not mean to suggest she was, I was just typing away...

I love antiques and the good ol days, but I wouldn't want to live there

Men could abuse women with little repercussion

Sexual harassment was seen as "Ok"

Racism was institutionalized even more so than it is today

Men diddled their daughters in private, everyone knew and no one said anything.

These are the things that my mom talks about, behind the TV shows with separate beds and "Leave it to Beaver" wholesomeness, people were drunks, abusive, pedophiles and had all sorts of issues they hid behind picket fences. Things get romanticized big time. They can keep their manners as far as I am concerned. My mom is somewhat older than anyone posting on this thread, so I will take her word for it.  Most people were not of the social standing to have wonderful manners either, most people were common and vulgar as they are today, the media just caters to us "commoners" more so than they used to.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/15/2006 9:09:59 AM >

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 8:55:17 AM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, I mean more the rituals, the elegance and the training in SM---it was so very formal. That is what I refer to actually---and yes there are many things from the past I would NEVER want to bring back. <smiles>

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 9:00:42 AM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Sigh...us darn kids...

Every generation looks back with the past as if it were the peak of civilization and looks to the future with disdain.

And when you wonder why the next generation "lacks respect"- it's because so many of you look at us and just tell us that we're driving the world into the ground.  Would you respect someone who did that? 

Instead of repeating what your forefathers have done for thousands of years...why not take the higher perspective and realize that the past wasn't that great, the present is what it is, and that each generation forms its own values and rituals.  People used to think that unwed women were blights upon society and that allowing women to walk around without being married properly was a sign that the values of the world were going downhill.


I did not take MHOO's words to be age or generation related. I haven't been in this for 50 years, more like 19, but I see the changes MHOO is talking about. I see it as coming from the " darn kids", the middle aged and older. It's the instant gratification without investing yourself. It's the lack of plain old fashioned mannors. It's the thrill seekers that come to get there rocks off without having the smallest bit of understanding. It's the commitment to your chosen partner<s> and commitment to grow with them. That's not age related nor generational to me.

For me, the biggest area I struggle with is the ettiquette and mannors. I am a stickler for those things in my vanilla life also and it ticks me off when I have to endure a lack of them.

I got a chuckle out of LotusSongs response " laughable freak show" Some days it sure is.
                mbmbn

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When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 9:17:50 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

Yes, I mean more the rituals, the elegance and the training in SM---it was so very formal. That is what I refer to actually---and yes there are many things from the past I would NEVER want to bring back. <smiles>


Laughing here, I love elegance and refinement too, in an artsy sorta way, and I cannot wait for the chance to exercise it if my Daddy lets me...smiles. I was trained in food service and catering, so it is something I am familiar with.. I have no knowledge of the rituals except for what I have read.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 9:21:13 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
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From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

[What has happened] To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?

Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?


I certainly do align with your lamentations about crudeness and vulgarity.

Fifty years ago, I was but one of countless unborn ghosts divided by the loins of my parents. I cannot speak with any experiential authority of those years, but I do know what I see today: a very wide matrix of "philosophical inclusion". It is well, I suppose. The dilemma with etiquette comes when it clashes with contemporary social agenda; speak of ideal decorum and deportment too openly and you are labeled an intolerant prude, or, depending upon your sex, a misogynist.




< Message edited by amayos -- 8/15/2006 9:24:39 AM >

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 9:30:38 AM   
RighteousBabe


Posts: 26
Joined: 6/25/2006
Status: offline 		I really don't have enough experience in D/s to be able to compare what was in times past.   Like some others have pointed out, rudeness and crudeness are traits running amok in all aspects of living, not just in BDSM.   Also all generations tend to look back at the past as a kind of "golden era", regardless of what the realities were.  (a neat book to check out on this common fallacy is: "The Way We Never Were" by Stephanie Coonz)

On a possibly semi-related tangent, some time ago, I was talking to a young man and the topic of "extremes" came up.   We were discussing various trends such as extreme body art, extreme sports, etc. and the idea that nowadays people often feel as though in order to feel gratified they want have increasingly hard-core,  (seemingly) excessive experiences.  The more the conversation progressed, a common theme kept repeating itself.  In our culture of immediate gratification and never-ending need for consumption, people appear to crave newer and more intense ways to push their limits.  Collectively, we have lost a sense of connection to ourselves and seek bolder ways to reclaim that sense of loss.  Perhaps some of what the OP has noted stems from this shift in society in terms of eliminating the elegance and beauty in rituals in favor of finding ways to achieve instant, all-consuming gratification.   It becomes less about the means and more about the end result/feeling. 

I am not sure if I am making much sense, so I apologize if it seems I've roamed off topic.

XOXOXO 


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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 9:35:44 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline 		I think bdsm is better today than it ever was before.  Before it was an esoteric field limited
to a few interested parties.  Today it is more democratic, more open, less formalized,
less dogmatic, less ritualistic, and less a religion with Popes of Rope.  I am happy at
it becoming more and more accepted.  In the past, there was little opportunity for the
average person to get into it.  It was almost impossible to find a compatible partner.
The old guard never recognized consensual nonconsensuality, or rather they played
with it, but condemned those who admitted to having an interest in it.   Many of the
old guard engaged in extreme edge play, and looked down on those who were not
looking for a 24 / 7 / 365   

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 9:39:08 AM   
ToServeIsToLive


Posts: 222
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		I'm in agreement with lucky.  People have beening complaining about the coruption of youth/society since atleast Socrates (hell they killed him for it).  Just one theory though that might contribute to a degree.  For certain, people have been practicing this kind of thing behind closed doors not even knowing it was BDSM.  With higher levels of communication available, these "casual" people are being heard and made more apparent to those who are "formal".

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 9:44:17 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		MH is a cultured, refined and beautiful lady whom many would do well to emulate. Plus, she used to be a cop and could probably billy club the crap out of most of us.

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 9:46:45 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		I usually don't make comments like this, but I really do believe that some hope lies in the fact that there are people here who are wonderful examples of what to treat other people like, who give great advice and post wonderful posts. Some of these people are probably not even aware of how much impact their example sets for others, potentially.

The only thing people can control is how they themselves behave. And possibly, influence, to some degree, how others (like their submissive or slave, for example) behave. Beyond that, the most anyone could do would be to try to be a good example for someone else. I always liked  that saying:

"Either be a good example, or else be a horrible warning".

I am sure that on any given day, on this site both of these are around, to some extent. I think many are (hopefully) pretty apt at separating the two, as well.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/15/2006 10:11:18 AM >

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RE: What has happened? - 8/15/2006 9:47:08 AM   
Littlepita


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Joined: 10/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

Yes, I mean more the rituals, the elegance and the training in SM---it was so very formal. That is what I refer to actually---and yes there are many things from the past I would NEVER want to bring back. <smiles>


My Dom and I belong to a local BDSM group in our town. One of the more mature Domme's agrees with you entirely. She is going to organize a formal tea and teach us submissives the art of service with grace and humility. Then she will hold a tea where we will practice our new found skills on our Dom/me's. Oh and there has already been talk of having a tea for the Dom/me's as well so that they can be trained in how to properly receive service.

I think it's a lovely and wonderful idea and we are all really looking forward to it.

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