RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE

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GoddessJules -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (12/30/2004 10:02:25 AM)
Beth, I do appreciate your post. My beliefs aren't written in stone. . .if something comes up that challenges my beliefs I'm always willing to take a good hard look at them and re-evaluate them. I do agree that there is a lot of equivocation on common adjectives we use. Is this good or bad? I'm not 100% sure but I'm leaning more toward the side of bad. quote: For example, with all due respect, your self-ascribed title is Goddess, however, you (probably ) are not an immortal deity with supernatural powers. I only used "Goddess Jules" because "God Jules" flows like ice cubes. It just didn't flow [;)] I don't tell people that I am a "goddess" (in terms of being some immortal diety or really in any sense.) If I were pressed to define "what I am" in a BDSM context, I'd say that I am a fetishistic sadist. That's the best and most accurate description I can come up with. From reading your posts, I'm sure you will understand (the sentiment) of what I'm about to say even though I do not have confidence that I will articulate myself very well here. . .I'm at a point in my life where I'm starting to move away from affiliation with "BDSM" and moving toward identifying myself as a "fetishist" or "kinkster." That was one of my motivations of starting this thread. In my experience, the whole BDSM-ish crowd has been somewhat judgemental when it comes to others living out the particulars of their kinks. In short, it has become almost a limiting factor. I treat my boys as chattel. It works for us. BUT in the eyes of the community at large, I'm an insensitive abuser. I do partake in activities that are "marginalized" in the community. There are always disparaging words. "Oh my god!!! You have your slaves eat out of a dog bowl off of the floor??? And you sprinkle your toesnails as garnish??? You are the epitome of EVIL!!!" I don't/can't relate to most of the "slave owners" of my community and vice versa. So I find myself more and more withdrawn not because they scare or intimidate me. . .but going against brick walls gets old. The fetish/kink community outside of BDSM has been a lot more welcoming. The way I interact with my boys is a LOT more accepted in the latex fetish crowd than a crowd of masters and mistresses. So (after that long drawn out story) that was the motivation behind me starting this thread. It wasn't intended to be a pissing contest about semantics. . .but if there were any slave/slave owners out there that felt they were out of step with the BDSM community at large due to the way they chose to manifest their relationships. Did I make any sense??? LOL J

RealityFix -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (12/30/2004 11:32:27 AM)
It makes perfect sense Jules. I like control that goes way beyond what most consider proper, and I have my share of strange fetishes. The problem with most of the "D/s community" is that they try to standardize things they feel are "proper" and will tend to ostracize anything they feel is out of those bounds. I call these the "Mainstream Puritan Perverts". They are a bit like religious fanatics in thier own way-and really get bent if you tweak the noses of thier sacred cows. I just avoid it by keeping away from them, and doing what I please. What they don't know won't allow them to be annoying to me.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (12/30/2004 1:48:56 PM)
quote: I only used "Goddess Jules" because "God Jules" flows like ice cubes. It just didn't flow Jules, Indulging beth with the privilege of responding this morning I wanted her to begin her post differently. I suggested that she start it with the salutation; "Dear "Gods & Goddesses", "Lords & Ladies", "Emperors & Empresses", "Masters & Mistresses", "GRAND Masters & Spinets"....and then go into expressing her opinion. But lacking the sardonic and sarcastic attitude stemming from my NYC roots, she didn't use the suggestion. Personally I have always hated the use of the word 'slave' when describing beth. The negative historical ramifications aside, it didn't do justice describing our relationship and seemed insulting to those who lived and, are are living still in many corners of the world, as chattel. From Gor, there is always kijara; but I was never sure of it's proper spelling let alone the correct pronunciation. It just doesn't role off the tongue. It's a position I've stated many times before, but at the risk of being repeatedly redundant; I've found that a person's self appointed title and their instance of it's use is inversely proportional to their actual experience and skills. That goes for self appointed 'slaves' too. I make it a point to always begin a post here with a salutation pointing to the person I'm directing a response. Some have had very grandiose titles. I'll use there name or nickname but rarely the title. In fact, if I use the title, most likely, it would be an indication of sarcasm. I wish there was a better word then slave. Or maybe if each of the letters represented a word (Serving a Lifetime As Valued Entity)(?). My real favorite, and maybe best descriptive, is 'pet'. But it's really just semantics. Call me anything, but don't call me late for dinner. I know there can be nothing more important for some then having a title. Even the title 'slave' has value. I've spoken with many submissives who are striving and want to become 'slaves', so they must have a definition of 'slave' in mind - right? Take as an example the business world. For less then $500 you can form a corporation. Once formed you can appoint yourself as the corporate officer and legitimately print yourself business cards with your name on them having the title "President / CEO". Think you'll have the same clout as Bill Gates or Donald Trump? But you'd be surprised how many are given instant creditability due to having that card. Little do people realize that most "President / CEO" types work out of their basement or garage. I think it wise to give people who introduce themselves as 'slaves' and 'masters' the same skepticism, unless and until they earn that title by YOUR definition. Merc (JUST Merc)

MistressDREAD -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (12/30/2004 4:37:50 PM)
quote: I like control that goes way beyond what most consider proper, and I have my share of strange fetishes. Damn if that dont sound JUST LIKE ME! Hey............ are You My Brother?? [:)]

GoddessJules -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (12/30/2004 8:24:18 PM)
Merc and Beth, I always appreciate your well thought out responses. For me personally, these "moninkers" we all use are just our "kinky names/scene names" and I take it as that. I have never really viewed them as "titles" per se but something to go along with our names when we are "around our peoples." (Fellow kinksters) I wish this site would allow us to change names once in awhile (I do it in chat so often that people can't keep up.) Some of mine have been Bossy Black Princess, Bossy Black Brat, Bossy Black Bitch, Latex Pimptress, Princess of cuckolds, Cuckoldress, JULZ, and []D [] []V[] []D. I'm thinking (hoping) that people don't walk around thinking that they are really barons and dutchesses. . . . quote: But lacking the sardonic and sarcastic attitude stemming from my NYC roots, she didn't use the suggestion. She's the ying to your yang [:D] quote: I think it wise to give people who introduce themselves as 'slaves' and 'masters' the same skepticism, unless and until they earn that title by YOUR definition. I'll drink to that! J

bottominwa -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (12/30/2004 8:45:14 PM)
harmony, This girl could not agree more with you. she wishes someone would take up the question of why anyone ever decided being a slave was such a fabulous thing anyhow? And yes she too thinks to a certain extent it cleanses the word and devalues those who are still to this day in captive states. And from a language standpoint, also having a BA in English yes this girl beleives there is a danger in overtaking words with negative history in a cleansing way, in that there is the danger of losing the history itself. And as we both said it is devaluing and dismissive of people who truly have lived as "slaves". This girl also agrees that consensual slavery is an oxymoron....and yet to this day there is on all of these various channels two choices for a bottom...slave or submissive.....if you pick submissive you are saying to the community at large something about yourself, and if you pick slave you are saying something else...and in such a limited medium this is how we identify. So it always leaves this girl in a quandary of sorts. Especially when a vast majority of the title "slave" is denoting being "owned" more than anything else, and so to depict that one is within the confines of a working D/s framework what else does one use...when one can't fill in the blank... just sabrina King the chief bottle washer, house painter, baby raiser, yellow ribbon hanger, cum slut to the House of King [;)]

bottominwa -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (12/30/2004 9:07:40 PM)
Socrates said it best Goddess Jules, Agree on terms first. Without an agreed upon set of definitions for any discourse it is utter chaos and acheives nothing more than the tower of babble. To say that a word has no concrete meaning is akin to saying language is itself useless and mute, which it is ofcourse not. Words can have varied meaning in varied contexts, but unless the parties having the debate or discussion agree on terms you get nowhere. IE the banana...if Reality is standing by the fruit bowl and i say "hey pass me a banana" and He passes me an orange...well than that is communication break down. Because it is decidedly harder to stuff an orange up one's ass than a banana. [:D] And when we cease to communicate effectively all sorts of wonderfully horrible things happen. Like gettign driven to the docotr to get an orange pulled out of your ass...lmao [:@] Be careful what you say, because someone else may mean it. ~Aristophones See even non-slave "slaves" have previous incarnations...this one went to college on debate scholarship.....lol. sabrina King House of King

GoddessJules -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (12/30/2004 9:24:46 PM)
Sabrina, quote: To say that a word has no concrete meaning is akin to saying language is itself useless and mute, which it is ofcourse not. I agree with you totally. But I do believe (and I don't think that we do this intentionally) equivocate or perhaps have different connotations to words based on experience, education, culture etc. A prime example: When I was in CA, I met a girl who was raised in a small town and thought that the modern PC term for black folks was "colored." Needless to say, she raised a few eyebrows and might have even gotten her feelings hurt over using the term (I'm sure some folks didn't appreciate hearing it black and white) but the point is. . .we all agreed on the definition. . .we just had differing connotation. And I see this as one of the fallibilities of language. quote: IE the banana...if Reality is standing by the fruit bowl and i say "hey pass me a banana" and He passes me an orange...well than that is communication break down. I remember some banana argument earlier in the thread but I didn't entertain that notion for one second, nor did I really take it seriously. quote: the chief bottle washer, house painter, baby raiser, yellow ribbon hanger, cum slut You do WAY to much for a chief! Kick back a little and let calgon take you away [;)] J

perverseangelic -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (12/30/2004 9:27:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bottominwa To say that a word has no concrete meaning is akin to saying language is itself useless and mute, which it is ofcourse not. Words can have varied meaning in varied contexts, but unless the parties having the debate or discussion agree on terms you get nowhere. IE the banana...if Reality is standing by the fruit bowl and i say "hey pass me a banana" and He passes me an orange...well than that is communication break down. Because it is decidedly harder to stuff an orange up one's ass than a banana. [:D] And when we cease to communicate effectively all sorts of wonderfully horrible things happen. Like gettign driven to the docotr to get an orange pulled out of your ass...lmao [:@] But language -is- mute in a sense. I wouldn't say langauge is ever useless, however there is -always- the possibility that an individual percieves language differently from someone else. There isn't a way to insure that everyone uses language in the same manner. Becuase of this, there is -always- the possiblity for variable meanings. The fact that the possibility for different usage exists makes language meaningless (in a sense). (This is an argument for the sake of argument. Still, I'm a big fan of language and language manipulation. I think it's interesting to be aware of the limits of language and the fictions which we uphold in order to preserve language's meaning.)

bottominwa -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (12/30/2004 9:54:46 PM)
Purely for the sake of debate mind you...lol, Jules and perverse Y/you are both right and yet wrong...only in so much as yes words can have infinite meanings in infinite realms..they are quite quantum mechanic that way...but in order to have conversation...that gets anywhere Socratic logic mandates we define terms first. IN this instance this is how there is so much confusion and piss matches in the BDSM community decidedly because we can not decide what is or isn't a "slave" and so when we converse all hell breaks loose lol. Now Jules earlier You described a caviat of things that You say You like to do to those You keep...in this girl's limited opinion the severity of what is done to a person or the degredation or inhumane perception level has little to do with whether those people are being kept as "slaves" or not. And its always fun to watch people in an alternative lifestyle get all high and mighty over what someone else gets off on...lmao! If You, Jules, kidnap them in the light of day, hold them captive indefintely against their will and then put toenail clippings on their cereal...no matter what brand...thats slavery, is my only point. lmao. Otherwise do whatever You want, if they can leave of their own "free will" they aren't slave per se...just sick puppies that like toenails on their corn flakes....lmao [:'(] And this girl refers to Master as her God also...lol. Gloria Dominae naturae est sum Aeterus devoverum sabrina King House of King And for Hades sake is there a way to spell check on this damned thing? she can't type for shit, and so she ends up editing every message so she doesn't look like a total dumb ass

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (12/31/2004 3:08:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityFix It makes perfect sense Jules. I like control that goes way beyond what most consider proper, and I have my share of strange fetishes. The problem with most of the "D/s community" is that they try to standardize things they feel are "proper" and will tend to ostracize anything they feel is out of those bounds. I call these the "Mainstream Puritan Perverts". That's kind of unfortunate since in my view most people look into this lifestyle because they are for the most part non-standard. I say AMEN to that statement: "I like control..." Jules I agree with what someone said: no one uses title of slave until he/she has proven he is that in your own definition of the word. M

LuvSponge -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (1/8/2005 12:38:00 PM)
The world needs more Cuckoldresses. This is worthy of a tax deduction or some such.

GoddessJules -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (1/8/2005 12:47:26 PM)
quote: The world needs more Cuckoldresses. This is worthy of a tax deduction or some such. I don't know if you were being facetious but I do enjoy cuckolding. There is just something to be said for a situation in which the cucked party willingly lets the object of his desire go out to be please by someone else. (And then be turn on by it!) J

DaddyAngel -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (1/8/2005 1:57:29 PM)
I'm really enjoying reading this conversation. In point of fact, I have had a recent encounter with one who thinks she wants to be a slave on a part time basis. Which defies reality in my definition of slavery. I can't imagine how she could feel that she is a slave, when she specifies when the aforementioned relationship will occur (one night each weekend and one evening during the week though in the company of her teenage child) and she sets limits of who and what shall be aware of, or mentioned within, the relationship. However, this particular woman had done much reading online and talked with others online who practice slavery in this fashion, and found that it worked for them. Therefore, it was what she wanted. (no offense folks, but we all know that many online never participate in reality) shrug I smiled and suggested she go play with them... I prefer a slave who understands her value and offers it without recourse other than walking away from the relationship. If you belong to me, the only other option you get is to not belong to me. That said, I also am frustrated by those claiming that a slave should never have an opinion, or make a decision. I expect slaves to make decisions on a regular basis, guided by their opinions, and what they know of my preferences and needs. I don't expect her not to have a preference for what kind of food we eat, that is... if I ask... I don't expect her to object to voicing her needs, when I ask her to express those needs. Whether or not I choose to indulge them is my decision, not hers. I like knowing how my slave thinks, and how she feels. It does not mean I will cater to her preferences when mine are different. It does not mean I will be less the owner if I go out for Thai food because she prefers it, and I'm not in the mood to choose what kind of food to eat. I refuse to be forced into micromanagement by a slaves desire to be incapable of making a decision. That smacks to me of Bottomming from the Top. DaddyAngel

Darthbetta -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (1/8/2005 6:57:23 PM)
I'm a slave to "The Man".... Every day "the Man" keeps trying to opress me.... and kick me while I'm down I also am a "slave to the Grind". Even us Doms have to suck up and "kneel before the almighty Dollar".....

Paulnz -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (1/8/2005 8:50:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessJules The most recent memories of slavery in our country (US) has been an ugly one. I'm sure that is the reason a lot of people "tread softly" when the subject comes up. That being said, I don't think that the definition of the word has changed... Slaves are everywhere. . .let's face it. . .there is an ABUNDANCE of slaves. (I'm being facetious, but if you look around, you'll get my joke.)... Did the definition of slave change without me realizing it? Or is this a case of "slavery means whatever it wants to depending on the person?" I haven't read all the replies, but this is my take:- Slaves are property. Blacks in America who want to study their genealogy have to work their way through Wills to check the chattel records. If you own property you have the exclusive proprietary right over the asset. This means you can sell it, give it away or Will it. You can lock it up and exclude others from using it. It is yours to do with as you see fit. So my treatment of a slave is to calculate value and to amortise/depreciate the slave over time. The slave can be sold or disposed of at any time. It is in the transfer of ownership where the weakness of slavery exists. If a slave is not happy to relocate their contribution will deteriorate. A modern day real life example is in professional sports and the transfer of players ( not all pro sportspeople are rich either by the way ).

topcat -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (1/8/2005 10:38:01 PM)
quote: I don't tell people that I am a "goddess" (in terms of being some immortal diety or really in any sense.) M. Jules- thou art god. Yours, truely- Lawrence

GoddessJules -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (1/9/2005 10:55:36 AM)
quote: M. Jules- thou art god. Does a god show favor to a subject via currency or sexual favors? Please feel fee to answer in your own favor. . .[;)] J

servantnj -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (1/9/2005 2:00:32 PM)
i like word "slave" it is strong, erotic etc. history is behind us, and yes it was ugly, but this is some other time. i dont like "sub" and especially not "subbie" it sound like someone is too lazy too call him/her submissive. Subbie just sounds like some new brand of chewing-gums. i also like servant, etc. on the other hand Domme? ist it strange to call Dominant person with so descriptive name, ok slave-zero is usual and common, but Domme-zero, doesnt it sound a bit humiliating and depersonating (hmm) for Dominant one?

topcat -> RE: Slaves, slaves, slaves EVERYWHERE (1/9/2005 2:57:54 PM)
M. Jules- Oh no- I think a more important question would be the ways in which I might make worship of you... ritual binding- the mortifcation of the flesh And of course, communion Stay warm, Lawrence PS are you toying with me- I really can't believe you missed a Stranger in a Strange Land referance?

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