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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/23/2006 4:55:34 AM   
SensualNSadistic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wanderer08
I was wondering though - do many of you 24/7 Master/ slaves (or Dom(me)/subs?) opperate within contracts in your relationships? Or am I just more formal in my approach?


I tend to deem them more as agreements or undertakings, which are signed and documented. The term contract is in fact a hazardous misnomer. If things come under the scrutiny of the authorities, it at best may display the state of mind both parties were in at the time of said events, but it gives no outright legal protection whatsoever. What such an agreement certainly does is serve as a framework of words as to what is expected in the arrangement. I don't consider such a pact formal at all—it in fact makes a lot of sense. I just feel we all need to step away from the word "contract".






Are you aware that a Missouri Judge denied a restraining order for a woman because she had signed a "contract" with a dom? True, they are not enforceable in court, but they do outline expectations of a relationship, and by signing the contract, the sub does give up the right to certain legal protections due to going into the relationship with somewhat "open eyes". Naturally, that was just that particular judge's opinion, but I am sure some others of a younger more open minded nature to relationships would probably make the same ruling.

(in reply to amayos)
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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/23/2006 7:32:26 AM   
Celeste43


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A contract as it is usually referred to, no. We knew each other well enough by that point to not need one.

What he did do was write out a list of the limits I had expressed to him before we first played to make sure he hadn't missed one. No duct tape on skin is still a hard limit.

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/23/2006 9:01:33 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SensualNSadistic

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wanderer08
I was wondering though - do many of you 24/7 Master/ slaves (or Dom(me)/subs?) opperate within contracts in your relationships? Or am I just more formal in my approach?


I tend to deem them more as agreements or undertakings, which are signed and documented. The term contract is in fact a hazardous misnomer. If things come under the scrutiny of the authorities, it at best may display the state of mind both parties were in at the time of said events, but it gives no outright legal protection whatsoever. What such an agreement certainly does is serve as a framework of words as to what is expected in the arrangement. I don't consider such a pact formal at all—it in fact makes a lot of sense. I just feel we all need to step away from the word "contract".






Are you aware that a Missouri Judge denied a restraining order for a woman because she had signed a "contract" with a dom? True, they are not enforceable in court, but they do outline expectations of a relationship, and by signing the contract, the sub does give up the right to certain legal protections due to going into the relationship with somewhat "open eyes". Naturally, that was just that particular judge's opinion, but I am sure some others of a younger more open minded nature to relationships would probably make the same ruling.


Are you sure you didnt misunderstand this case?  Im not saying youre wrong, but honestly I have a hard time believing that a judge would allow someone to remain in a situation where they could be endangered, based upon something that would most likely be veiwed as a "play contract" in the legal world.  If this woman was in danger and moved for a restraining order and was denied based on a bdsm contract, then killed because of it, that judge would probably be in world of shit for denying her based on a what amounts to 'play' in a courtroom.  Restraining orders arent that easy to get to begin with, perhaps she was actually denied for another reason?   I mean...did you see the judges ruling where is was documented that it was denied because the couple had a bdsm contract in place??? 

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/23/2006 10:03:46 AM   
Viper001


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wanderer08

I was wondering though - do many of you 24/7 Master/ slaves (or Dom(me)/subs?) opperate within contracts in your relationships? Or am I just more formal in my approach?


The legal vs. non-binding debate aside, yes I do use contracts for one simple reason. The process of hammering out a contract of any length serves as a tool for clear communication of expectations, obligations, responsibilities, etc.

Regards.

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/23/2006 10:16:26 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

The legal vs. non-binding debate aside, yes I do use contracts for one simple reason. The process of hammering out a contract of any length serves as a tool for clear communication of expectations, obligations, responsibilities, etc.


Viper,
Exactly!

Relying on a contract to provide a legal "out" or excuse to abuse someone in a relationship works as well as walking into a lifestyle club for the first time and demanding everyone bow and call you master. Laying down expectations and responsibilities in writing is a perfect tool for opening lines of honest communication; and defining expectations on both sides.

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/23/2006 12:02:23 PM   
agirl


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It must vary from person to person hugely.....coupled with the type of relationship they have and how it began initially.

I suppose I have a contract of sorts....The collar went on.....it's unwritten; but the *understanding* that went with it didn't need *spelling out*. Who would it mean anything to, apart from us? We both know what's entailed and what's expected.

I think that a contract NOW , after these years, would mean more than one that I agreed to when I didn't know fully just what it would mean to be a slave.

agirl



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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/24/2006 3:16:27 PM   
Wanderer08


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Just a short note to say thank you for all the comments, thoughts and debate.  I continue to read them with interest.
 
Wanderer

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/24/2006 7:04:00 PM   
Voltare


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Stephan,
I find the point you make regarding "romantic, emotional elements" is the reason that contracts are not only a good idea but necessary especially at the beginning of a relationship. Most often when people meet it's all about romance and emotions with the hope and possibility of it blossoming into love. "Most often" at least is a when an ongoing relationship is a common goal. Usually both parties are on their "best behavior" trying to make a good impression. You share smiles, relate experiences, and discuss things openly. What better time to establish an understanding of each other's expectations and image of the "ideal" relationship?

Consider that most, if not all, consummated and publicly acknowledged relationships have "contracts". Within the context of marriage they are called "vows", there is no difference, except most people can't remember and don't expect to live by those vows, even when they've authored them. Most of the time it's for the audience, not for the couple. An important distinction with a lifestyle contract primarily for only the people involved.

A contract taken serious between a Dom/sub, or Master/slave is a relationship foundation that can be a relationship guide as well as a reference when problems come up. It reminds the parties involved, because they don't necessarily have to be limited to two people, of what was important enough to write down when the romance and emotions ran at a fever pitch. It established a place to go in your mind to focus on what should be the highest importance in your life when life's distractions try to distract you.

Yes, beth and I have a "Contract" with rules. We are fast approaching the third anniversary of our signing it. Signed and framed, it's hung and holds a place of prominence in our home.

I don't say a contract is, or should be a requirement. Out of the gate, the process sure is a great way to gain deep insight about your potential mate. Ongoing it is a good tool for focus. Ultimately it provides a nostalgic physical written reminder that may help bring back memories harder to remember as the years pass. Are any of these things bad? beth reads out-loud our contract every day as part of a daily ritual I have for her. Redundant? Of course YES! Some of life's redundancies aren't so bad and negative. Sometimes something redundant daily is stabilizing and anticipated with pleasure.

Not trying to convince you or anyone, just trying to provide an alternative perspective to the nay sayers.


Merc n beth,

I completely understand your point of view, and for many couples here, that's a great way to ensure that vital communication occurs.  I wasn't trying to naysay, in fact I thought I was in the minority, as it seems (or at least used to seem) that anyone who was serious about TPE had to have a nineteen page certified document (framed, and hung on the wall) to demonstrate their sincerity; and that any couple who didn't have a contract were really just dabbling or part timers. 

From my point of view, I've just known a number of people who seem to rely on their contract to define their relationship, almost as a substitute for communication.  The top simply issuing regulations, or the slave writing a list of things desired in the relationship, and than seeking out a compatible partner to fulfill those particular expectations.  My personal issue with this is in seeking out someone who specifically meets the contract, there can be a loss of flexibility, and spontenaity.  Relationships end up cardboard cutouts, like Barbie and Ken, where the focus is on "What my Dom/sub is in my head" vice a focus on learning who the person really is.

Gretchen had absolutely no experience with BDSM or Ds when I met her (gretchen: even though I had tied myself up and used ice on my clit, pulled my own hair, asked boyfriends to spank me - but doing it alone is just boring.  In this country it's difficult to 1) find a person who you can trust with that kind of thing, and 2) who would be willing to share in the interest!)  She didn't know any of the terms, and only had a vague idea of what I was talking about when I first told her about it (over a month after I met her.)  The night we first met, she practically had 'slave' on her forehead, but I had decided that if I ever wanted to have a functioning Ds relationship, I had to start with the emotional and mental connection.

Since then, it's always been our emotional and mental connection that binds us.  This doesn't mean we don't have agreements on certain issue (we're a monogamous couple, for example) or that we don't have rituals (like making coffee, certain positions, and ways of speaking.)  It just means that we don't strive to place artificial boundries or contraints, and set them in stone.  It isn't kink that binds us, but love.  This is the crux of the contract issue, I think.  Using a relationship to replace or gloss over intimacy and honest conversations can totally destroy a relationship (or ensure that one never forms in the first place.)

Just my 2 cents.

Stephan


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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/24/2006 7:18:43 PM   
subinside


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i believe a contract is a necessary part of starting a M/s, and even D/s relationship.. i already have one that was written by a lawyer in Alberta and modified to suit me.  Were i to be ready to sign a contract, it would obviously be modified to suit Him as well.  i would also expect that it would be modified every so often as our relationship grew and blossomed and as my experience level rose.

< Message edited by subinside -- 8/24/2006 7:19:10 PM >


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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/25/2006 9:26:06 AM   
sSweetAnnSauer


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Who uses contracts?  Anyone who is truly serious, has integrity, and thinks about what this lifestyle is really about -- will use a contract, and STICK to it.  Because we are a 24/7, D/s couple, Ours is fairly in depth, many pages long and discusses the definitions and values that we share as a D/s couple.  It details how we define each person's role, reonsibilities, and needs, it defines what abuse is and how we will guard against it, it defines what D/s does and doesn't do in our relationship... etc... including hard limits and what they are.  It has taken us months to negotiate this contract and we are almost finished.  Some may say it's too long.  I say, that because we had to work through the process of discussing and learning where we could agree on all these things, we now have a much clearer understanding of what we each expect.  We will start the process again in 6 months after we finish.  In my opinion, a good contract never really stops in it negotiations.

sweet

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/25/2006 10:25:40 AM   
Voltare


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sSweetAnnSauer

Who uses contracts?  Anyone who is truly serious, has integrity, and thinks about what this lifestyle is really about -- will use a contract, and STICK to it. 


Mercnbeth,

this is the point I was trying to make.  I wholeheartedly support those who swear by a contract, and obviously it can be a valuable tool.  On the other hand, the suggestion that no couple can be considered serious without a contract is elitist and ignorant.  A contract can facilitate communication, but it can't replace it.

Stephan


_____________________________

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/25/2006 10:34:47 AM   
popeye1250


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Viper, I can goeither way on a contract but I like your viewpoint on that.

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/25/2006 10:35:00 AM   
Sub03


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sSweetAnnSauer

Who uses contracts?  Anyone who is truly serious, has integrity, and thinks about what this lifestyle is really about -- will use a contract, and STICK to it.  Because we are a 24/7, D/s couple, Ours is fairly in depth, many pages long and discusses the definitions and values that we share as a D/s couple.  It details how we define each person's role, reonsibilities, and needs, it defines what abuse is and how we will guard against it, it defines what D/s does and doesn't do in our relationship... etc... including hard limits and what they are.  It has taken us months to negotiate this contract and we are almost finished.  Some may say it's too long.  I say, that because we had to work through the process of discussing and learning where we could agree on all these things, we now have a much clearer understanding of what we each expect.  We will start the process again in 6 months after we finish.  In my opinion, a good contract never really stops in it negotiations.

sweet


Me and Master dont have a contract and I dare anyone to say we are not serious because of that. Everything in our relationship is clearly defined and understood, i.e limits, responsibilitys, needs and duties. That comes from talking for almost a year before we even started a relationship. I have nothing against contracts but I do have something against saying if you dont have one you arent serious.

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 8/25/2006 10:48:03 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Mercnbeth,

this is the point I was trying to make.  I wholeheartedly support those who swear by a contract, and obviously it can be a valuable tool.  On the other hand, the suggestion that no couple can be considered serious without a contract is elitist and ignorant.  A contract can facilitate communication, but it can't replace it.

Stephan


Stephan,
We are in total agreement.
Whenever we answer questions posed to us in email and share intimate details of our relationship, we always use the qualifier that any insight into our relationship is only Merc & beth dogma, not lifestyle dogma. When it comes to contracts, either in concept or in our detail, the same applies.

(in reply to Voltare)
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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 6/13/2007 2:48:29 PM   
SlaveSubtoserve


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.....i have found them very useful in the past especially when entering into a relationship that looks to have great potential but you still don't know each other that well= its a way to proceed with outlining some guard rails.

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 6/13/2007 3:14:23 PM   
subsa


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we have a contract of sorts.  it doesn't spell out rules for either party, more, it describes the concepts we share that give structure to our D/s dynamic.  rules do exist for each of us but not as part of the contract.  and they are modified, as need, to achieve the concepts stated in the contract.   one thing our contract does allow for is a 'choice point'.  either party can call for the choice point.  when (if) a request for choice is made there is to be a 1 week cessation of all aspects of the D/s dynamic.  at the end of that week the decision to share a D/s relationship must be agreed to by both parties or that aspect of our relationship is ended.  we've not felt the need to call for a choice point since making the contract.  when the contract was first instated we both felt that we could end the D/s part of our relationship and still continue our marriage.  now we're not so sure.  hopefully we'll never have to find out. 

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 6/13/2007 4:46:54 PM   
HutchGarahl


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I use contracts. A very lengthy one at that. It fully describes each persons goals, expectations, limits, needs, safety and so forth. I've even had the notorized. After 6 months, Myself and whoever may be under me, will reevaluate the contract to add in anything that may have become included into the relationship or to remove something and a chance to see if we are still on the same headline as when we first started. To me and my wards, the contract is a neccessity to insure there is no quams about what each of us are looking for in the other or what we want in ourselves.

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 6/13/2007 5:06:42 PM   
nearnyccouple


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we have never used a contract.....although i can see the practical reasons why many people do.   from the time we first met communication has been a vitally important component of our relationship. we knew each other for quite a while before we became Master/slave.  did we cover everything that has come up through the years?  of course not, but those same things would most likely have been missed when first drawing up a contract as well. we dealt with them as they occured.  as so many have said in this forum, what works for one may not work for another.  neither is right or wrong, just different.

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 6/13/2007 7:43:02 PM   
goodpet


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We have a very formal contract. just one page about the relationship. We do not have the  "rules" in the contract, they are a part of the house's SOP, rather then a contract.

I like having the contract, makes you stop and think and really consider what you are getting into.

but the real contract is in the heart.   just like a marriage, yes there is the paper but it is in the heart that it is given validity and truth.

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RE: Contracts - who uses them? - 6/13/2007 8:09:39 PM   
thetammyjo


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Deleted cause I realized this is an old thread I just noticed again.

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 6/13/2007 8:10:48 PM >


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