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Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/2/2007 3:17:35 PM

BootBlackBlast

Posts: 378
Joined: 10/23/2006
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I'm sure this question has been asked before and if it has LA will provide us the links, but I'm asking again anyway. It was brought up briefly in the Bisexual Leather thread and I feel it deserves a thread of it's own. Elegant I can't wait to hear your answer as well as Master Archer's if I may refer to him as such, as he is not my Master.

How does one define or identify as Leather as opposed to just living or identifying as BDSM/kinky? For those of you that identify as leather lifestyle, what does that mean to you, and where do you draw the line at others who are engaged in kinky/BDSM lifestyle but you wouldn't necessarily call them leather?

I obviously being a leatherwoman have an answer but I am reserving that for a little later so as not to get a bunch of "what she said" responses.

It's a question that is often asked of me at BDSM pansexual young events and although I have a stock answer on hand for it, I've been reevaluating that answer lately. So, keep the answers coming.

_____________________________

Leather Rubbin and Dubbin

Bootblack Blast
Mama's Blast

Post #: 1

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/2/2007 4:25:05 PM

TigressFL

Posts: 239
Joined: 6/8/2006
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I asked some questions in the other thread but I will give my current understanding.

Here is my current understanding....
I think that for many years the "Leather World" revolved around and was "restricted to" Gay Males that believed in earning the titles of Master or slave. In order to reach their goal of being either they would have to start out from the bottom (pun intended) and work their way up. At that time they did not recognize women as being a part of the "Leather World", however, in recent years that has changed in the sense that now there are women that actually go through the process of earning their titles. It is also my understanding that a "Letherwoman" is also a Lesbian and as such the "Leather World" is within the Gay & Lesbian Community ONLY. While there are many straight people that engage in a process of earning their titles, they are not recognized within the "Leather World" and vice versa. Many Gay Lethermen still do not recognize "Leatherwomen", however, many do! The "Male Gay Leather World" is where all the formal codes of conduct originated as that is a part of the process of earning your title. Much of the confusion for people in the "General BDSM Community" is due to the lack of awareness and understanding of the Gay and Lesbian Leather World and that had it not been for the Gay Leathermen... The Pansexual Community we enjoy today may have never been here.

But then again... I could be wrong!

Tigress~FL

(in reply to BootBlackBlast)

Post #: 2

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/2/2007 7:46:06 PM

hawkwolf7

Posts: 85
Joined: 10/24/2004
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I am an example of the exception to the post by Tigress, where leather is limited to the gay/lesbian/bi-sexual (GBL) communities. And while her statements are correct for many, it is by no means universal.

When I decided to join the public lifestyle, I was quite fortunate to be inducted into a Leather family. This family consisted of het, gay/lesbian, and bisexual individuals and couples. The house was also very active in BDSM education, which is part of what attracted me to the house. As a member of the house, I was mentored in many areas, including BDSM techniques, Leather principles, and Leather protocols. We also attended many Leather and BDSM events, and were made to feel welcome by all the GBL leathermen and leatherwomen we encountered, even though we we didn't all share their sexual orientation.

But, just like the general BDSM community cannot agree on much, so too is it true for the Leather communities. I have heard stories of those in the Leather community who do not accept anyone who isn't GBL.

So, for me, Leather is a set of values, in which honor and community service are highly prized; and a set of protocols, in which civility and respect are highly prized... but Leather doesn't have to include a sexual orientation. And, based on my experience, most of the gay and lesbian Leatherfolk agree that these elements are the most important.

Sincerely,
HawkWolf

< Message edited by hawkwolf7 -- 5/2/2007 8:16:27 PM >

_____________________________

p.s. Everything I write is simply one person's opinion: mine. Feel free to take what is useful and blow off the rest.

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.

(in reply to BootBlackBlast)

Post #: 3

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/2/2007 7:59:58 PM

moki1984

Posts: 274
Joined: 2/22/2007
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hmm...interesting. I do not know much of "leather"

(in reply to hawkwolf7)

Post #: 4

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/2/2007 8:20:55 PM

hawkwolf7

Posts: 85
Joined: 10/24/2004
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... smile...

You should not feel like you are alone.

I am honored that you found my words interesting... Thanks!

_____________________________

p.s. Everything I write is simply one person's opinion: mine. Feel free to take what is useful and blow off the rest.

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost.

(in reply to moki1984)

Post #: 5

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/2/2007 9:14:49 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BootBlackBlast
How does one define or identify as Leather as opposed to just living or identifying as BDSM/kinky?

For me it definitely means understanding and being comfortable and accepted in the homosexual kinky world to start with. If you don't have that, I don't care how much leather you wear or buy or how much you do for the kinky world, I won't consider you part of the leather community.

It's also part of why I don't think I ever will be.

Beyond that, leather to me means identifying with a code of conduct, protocol and social organization. It means being part of a family with structure and rules based on seniority and social permissions from the others in the family/culture.

Leather is the main symbol and heart of it all- but not what everything is about.

I occasionally find myself longing for that sort of sense of belonging, that sense of pride and raw edge that comes with being "leather" but it's just not me- I wouldn't be comfy there and they wouldn't be comfy having me there. I'm happy to have the few friends that I do in the leather culture.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to BootBlackBlast)

Post #: 6

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/3/2007 6:28:08 AM

Archer

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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People have touched on several of the things "I" use to define "Leather", But I take it a little bit further.

Leather is a sub culture, as such it has History, Values, Traditions and a loose form of Organization.
History is almost always tied to values in a culture or sub culture, and organization is almost always tied to values.
Families of choice, Social rank based on seniority and demonstrated experience or knowledge, Service to the larger community, etc...

Later (late 1970's) Lesbian groups which had developed and been growing seperately started to gather with the gay male groups based on political and educational shared needs. Along the way a smattering of hetosexual folks started to gather with them as well.

Sexual preference has become no longer a set value required to be considered "Leather".
Traditionally gay leather groups are inviting non gay members to join patch clubs to various levels.
The larger values of service to community, personal integrity, brotherhood, earning your way, etc have remained and serve as measures to evaluate if someone has "IT" that mythical intangible heart and soul that defines a leather person.

BDSM Culture (which I use as the umbrella subculture) developed seperatly from two other legs as well, Professional Dominatrixes, and Het groups often but not always developing from swingers groups with a smaller group inside it that practice S/M and or D/s.

Many of the values in Leather are also present in the larger BDSM culture (often adopted by the larger community from their use in the smaller parts)

I consider myself a Leatherman, I share the values, I know much of the history, and have shared in many of the traditions, and know my basic social rank within my local regional and national tribe. The only thing anyone could use to say I am not would be sexual orientation and since I play across gender lines with SM and non sexual service most of the gay leatherfolk I know accept me as Leather.

Earl morning answer as I finish waking up, LOL.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 7

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/3/2007 8:01:11 AM

Trampler

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/31/2006
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alot better thinking then I would be able to achieve after waking up............been awake an hour and my head still feels fuzzy. :

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 8

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/3/2007 8:05:34 AM

TigressFL

Posts: 239
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Archer,
I sent you an email on the other side.

Tigress~FL

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 9

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/3/2007 10:05:42 AM

TigressFL

Posts: 239
Joined: 6/8/2006
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Anyone know of any books that would provide detailed information about the Leather World?

Tigress~FL

(in reply to TigressFL)

Post #: 10

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/3/2007 10:41:38 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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http://www.collarchat.com/m_924061/mpage_1/key_leather%252Carchives/tm.htm#924120

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to TigressFL)

Post #: 11

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/3/2007 1:10:05 PM

Archer

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Joined: 3/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressFL

Anyone know of any books that would provide detailed information about the Leather World?

Tigress~FL

LeatherFolk
and The Leatherman's Handbook 1 and 2 by Larry Townsend
And Most things by Guy Baldwin

(in reply to TigressFL)

Post #: 12

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/3/2007 1:52:43 PM

TigressFL

Posts: 239
Joined: 6/8/2006
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Thank you both very much!

Tigress

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 13

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/4/2007 7:00:22 AM

TigressFL

Posts: 239
Joined: 6/8/2006
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I am surprised that more people have not chimed in on this thread. Leather is interesting to me and something I certainly want to learn more about. While I am waiting on my books to arrive, I started looking around on the web to see if I could find any links that explained Leather. I found one that I think has some good information in it, however, I personally do not like how they used the words "Old Guard" repeatedly as I have yet to see any proof that this group of Gay military/biker/leather men actually referred to themselves as such. If anyone has that proof I would sure love to see it.

For those that are Leather, I would appreciate it if you would take a look at the website below and provide feedback as to if you find it to be accurate or not. Thank you!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather_subculture

Thanks,
Tigress~FL

_____________________________

Live your own truth, Life is short

(in reply to BootBlackBlast)

Post #: 14

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/4/2007 7:29:53 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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This is a het board primarily, and leather is associated with the homo culture.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to TigressFL)

Post #: 15

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/6/2007 12:14:38 PM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

Well, it seems there are four people so far who are responding to the original OP; two of whom believe that “Leather” may have evolved from the gay/biker clubs, but today is a pansexual umbrella of BDSM culture. I couldn’t agree more with these snippets I took:

quote:

ORIGINAL: hawkwolf7

I am an example of the exception to the post by Tigress, where leather is limited to the gay/lesbian/bi-sexual (GBL) communities. And while her statements are correct for many, it is by no means universal.

... for me, Leather is a set of values, in which honor and community service are highly prized; and a set of protocols, in which civility and respect are highly prized... but Leather doesn't have to include a sexual orientation. And, based on my experience, most of the gay and lesbian Leatherfolk agree that these elements are the most important.
…

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
...
Sexual preference has become no longer a set value required to be considered "Leather".

It seems Tigress has also noticed a changing of the guard, so to speak (sorry), where more and more recognition has occurred as awareness and understanding embraces the community. I am pretty surprised at this statement, though…

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

This is a het board primarily, and leather is associated with the homo culture.

and would like to provide yet another quote from the link Tigress provided to Wikipedia:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather_subculture

…
The leather community has been considered a subset of BDSM culture rather than a direct descendant of gay culture as a whole, despite the fact that in years past much of the organized SM community was in fact homosexual. Today, while some may still use the term strictly in the old fashioned sense (confusing it with old guard, the "leather community" or "leather culture" includes all BDSM practitioners, gay, lesbian, straight, bisexual, or pansexual whether high or low protocol).
…

I would like to add that while I only discovered the world of ‘Leather’ some 4-5 years ago, it is my experience that it is as diverse in sexuality as it is in BDSM . I’m pleased to say I’ve seen mostly tolerance and support between the groups and individuals I’ve come in contact with…whether this be with regard to sexual preference or kink….and I rather like that.

I see the message-boards here just as openly pansexual as I see the Leather Community. Of course there are always people who resist change, but as a whole I believe most BDSMers, including the Leather Community, as generally more tolerant then the population at large. Perhaps I’m just ‘Thinking Positive’…but I like that, too.

beverly

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 16

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/6/2007 4:04:18 PM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

I've been offline for a few days, focusing on my partner but we are both taking a break to check emails and catch up on online stuff. So I am really happy to see this thread here. Leather is, in my opinion, both extremely easy and extremely hard to define. How so? Because it's easy to list common characteristics of Leatherpeople but even within a group that identifies as Leather there is still so much variation that you will never get a single definition.

Over the past couple of years I have been brought more and more into the world of Leather and have come to identify as a Leatherwoman above any one "BDSM" title like dom, sub, top, bottom, sadist, masochist, etc. I have those traits too of course, but what I feel like I *am* is a developing Leatherwoman. Still very much in the early stages but I'm lucky enough to have great teachers, friends, and yes, family. To me, Leather is largely about family, chosen family, but family nonetheless. I think that a lot of the het bdsm world has adopted the idea of families as being polyamorous becomes more acceptible but it is my understanding that the idea of a complex family unit is more of a staple of people in the Leather community. That is, you won't find many isolated Dom/sub or Master/slave couples who are Leather because the community is inherent in being Leather. It must also be remembered that not every Leather relationship involves sex because many do not. My Leather Mother, several Daddies, Masters, and slaves that mentor me, and all the boys who are my Leather brothers have no sexual, d/s, or kinky relationship with me at all, though with those that are older and established in the community, I do act with a type of respect and reverence that could possibly be mistaken for submission by those who are not familiar with the etiquette (or not used to seeing me be polite!)

In response to the comments above, LaTigresse, good for you for asking about books, the ones Master Archer named were what I was also going to say. I know that as far as authors go, anything by Larry Townsend, Guy Baldwin, and Jack Rinella tends to be considered good reading. I will also contribute the link to this amazon.com page from the NLA (National Leather Assoication) with an extensive list of books.

http://astore.amazon.com/nationallea05-20

One thing I would like to comment on is the gay/het thing. I used to think that Leather was really only for gay men and I still see this notion all over the place (usually from people who are not Leather) but all the middle aged-older Leathermen I know tell me that women always have been a part of their families, as far back as they know. Though women were not always abundant in numbers, from what I can tell, there have been women present in Leather as far back as it has existed.

There you go, my 2 cents.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 17

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/6/2007 4:13:41 PM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

n response to the comments above, LaTigresse,

Oops, I mean TigressFL.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to DominaSmartass)

Post #: 18

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/7/2007 12:49:51 AM

TigressFL

Posts: 239
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline

Thank you for the responses. It is great to read your point of view and very helpful.

I went to a function hosted by The Red Chair, in Alabama, this weekend and what do you know... there was a Leatherwoman there from Atlanta. She is a Lesbian (Dyke as she called herself) and while I did not have an opportunity to really get into an in-depth Leather discussion with her (she was there to do a Demo on Extreme Needle Play), she did provide me with all her contact information so I can "pick her brain" so to speak <laughing>.

I also had the opportunity to speak with a friend of mine that is a Historian, I got a bit of clarification on where the label "Old Guard" came from. It was never really the name of any group, it was simply used during a Leather meeting by a younger person as a description of what he viewed as "old" (outdated if you will) because he was in favor of something "new" to fit the times so to speak. It came out of his mouth as Old Guard and New Guard. It caught on obviously. I think Old School V/s New School comes up in every group of people with common interests that has been around for a long period of time. Hell when I think about things that are going on with teenagers today, I have often said, "Back in the day...." as I thought back to the differences from my own teenage years.

During my visit I was loaned the book, LeatherFolk. I started reading it on my plane ride home and really did not want to put it down when we landed. It is definitely a must read in my opinion. It provides some wonderful historical information that helped me connect with the Gay and Lesbian struggles for acceptance and more specifically the struggle of the Gay and Lesbian Leather community that was not only cast out of general society, but also, out of their own local Gay and Lesbian communities because they were Leather. I found myself rather pissed off about that fact to the point that I was shaking my head with a scowl on my face, mumbling various obscenities, forgetting there were people sitting very close to me. <laughing>.

One thing I have learned about the Leather community so far, is that they are as diverse as any sub-culture. While there are similarities within all LeatherFolk, there are just as many differences. Their chosen families or styles can be very Old School, New School or a mixture of both. They can be all Gay, all Lesbian, all Het or a mixture. There is no cookie-cutter way to be in the Leather Community what is ultimately required is dedication to your community and to me that is a wonderful thing.

_____________________________

Live your own truth, Life is short

(in reply to DominaSmartass)

Post #: 19

RE: Leather vs. BDSM/Kink - 5/7/2007 7:01:51 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressFL
specifically the struggle of the Gay and Lesbian Leather community that was not only cast out of general society, but also, out of their own local Gay and Lesbian communities because they were Leather.

Same thing can happen in polyamory and swing groups as well. It's an odd sort of protection/uniformity issue.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to TigressFL)

Post #: 20

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