quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
I think if people want bdsm to be accepted by mainstream society then they have to be willing to accept the fact that some bdsmers will be seen negatively, the same as some of any other 'group' will be seen negatively as the result of their actions. 
We don't get to have some exclusive umbrella of protection over us so that "vanilla" society gets the false impression that all us are good and honorable people; we simply aren't.   
marietoo,
i think this is a great observation and very true.  Any segment of society, however they identify, is going to have good and honorable and bad and dishonorable and everything in between.  The issue with this story, for me, was that it wasn't really about bdsm, though.  He wasn't - by his own or anyone's claim - a bdsm'er.  He was an abusive husband who apparently just liked having her call him "master" to further degrade her.  There did not seem to be any type of D/s or M/s relationship.  The point i was hoping to make is that when it was mentioned - at the closing credits - that he had made her call him this, i just had this frustrated feeling of "Oh great, this will just reinforce what those 'not in the know' already think."  If it had really been a D/s or M/s relationship and this guy had abused her like he did, that would have been a perfect example of what you stated and it would force us to face the knowledge that not all of us are indeed "good and honorable."  Thanks for the thought-provoking post......slave luci   

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I'm siding with Popeye on this one.  There are very few things that I take such a stance on, but non-consentual beatings are one of them
LadyPact,
i agree.  Non-consensual beatings and child abuse.  i'm usually very hesitant to make cries of how we need to inflict "an eye for an eye" justice.  But i have to admit, after seeing what he did to his wife and how he involved their children, i found it hard to have one shred of pity or compassion for him.  As primitive as it sounds to say, sometimes the only thing that is appropriate is a "dose of one's own medicine"..........slave luci 

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44
Food for thought: Don't believe everything you see on TV.
i don't but there are those who do.  As someone mentioned above, Oprah's audience as a whole probably has no real concept of what bdsm or a "master" really is.  Take a  look around these forums.  It's hard to find any real agreement here between people who identify as living it, for pete's sake. 
 
Food for thought:  Every response you give here doesn't have to be so rude.  i don't think anyone indicated they believe everything they see on tv.  We were simply having a discussion as to how having that word thrown into the mix, especially right at the end, couldn't possibly have anything but a negative effect.....slave luci
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I think if people want bdsm to be accepted by mainstream society then they have to be willing to accept the fact that some bdsmers will be seen negatively, the same as some of any other 'group' will be seen negatively as the result of their actions. 

We don't get to have some exclusive umbrella of protection over us so that "vanilla" society gets the false impression that all us are good and honorable people; we simply aren't.   

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

I think if people want bdsm to be accepted by mainstream society then they have to be willing to accept the fact that some bdsmers will be seen negatively, the same as some of any other 'group' will be seen negatively as the result of their actions. 

We don't get to have some exclusive umbrella of protection over us so that "vanilla" society gets the false impression that all us are good and honorable people; we simply aren't.   

I think the first and most important thing responsible bdsm lifestylers can do to be accepted better by the mainstream is exclude the abusive scum in our midst. Far too many times I've seen people just shrug and ignore a situation that was clearly nonconsensual and abusive simply because the didn't want to be "judgemental" or "narrow minded."

If you're active in the local lifestyle community I'm sure you've encountered the predatory abusive "dominant" that greatly contributes to us all having a bad name. Why does virtually no one get barred from munches and clubs? Why is the responsible bdsmer who says "no blood sports at my play party" or "I'm GM tonight and I can't be sure the sub hasn't been beaten too far and it isn't subspace but something else so stop now" treated as if they did something wrong?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

You should try reading a post for what is actually there and not what you want to try and make it into. If I trying was being rude, I would have said something like "Hey dumbass, why don't you pull your head from your four-point-contact and realize that shows like Oprah's will edit a video in order to sway viewers and grab ratings. All it takes is some stupid, vengeful cunt that was just released, who's master decided to let her have the tape because it seemed the right thing to do." But I didn't. I simply said what I did and you decided to take it the wrong way. 
What a touch of class [:)].  Obviously you didn't see the program we have been discussing here or there would be no doubt in your mind that this was not "a stupid vengeful cunt that was just released."  i haven't been the only person to post who saw it and everyone came away with the same impression.  i didn't take what you said the wrong way.  You fired off a one-line retort about not believing everything you see on TV.  What you obviously failed to realize is that is the EXACT point i was making.  i said i hated to think her viewers would actually BELIEVE that he was representative of what bdsm/"a master" is.  Such overreaction just to say what i had already said....slave luci 

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

during one particular incident, had their 13 yr. old son videotape the whole incident.  The children were witness to the abuse on many occasions and had even been made to participate by calling their mother a "white ho slut" and by helping him restrain her.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde
the fact that he forced her to call him "master" has nothing to do with any D/s fantasies; but about his desire to control his wife and self validation... the man is probably someone who has very little control over his lot in life (at least in his own perspective) and has taken control in the only way he can, by abusing his wife and children [and even if this is the only form such child abuse takes (which is quite doubtful), it is no less damaging and traumatic to the children]
Absolutely...well said, darchChylde.  You brought up a good point about that probably not being the only form child abuse took in that home.  The wife was actually spurred to leave the relationship because she feared the abuse of the children may escalate.  The very night the video was made, she said her husband insinuated to their 13 yr. old (who had taped the abuse of his mother earlier) that he (the boy) could find himself in her situation (beaten badly) if he didn't watch himself.  (Apparently, he had been in trouble for some bad behavior).  She said thinking of the husband turning on her son like he just had her is what finally made her escape. 
 
It definitely was not D/s but if it had been, as you said, involving the children was just horribly wrong.  It was mentioned above that maybe she was just vengeful after having been released.  i think she was blissful after escaping.  He certainly didn't "free" her in any way as they had tapes of him speaking with her on her cell phone threatening to kill her if she didn't get herself and her son home right away.  She probably got out just in time.  She said her intuition told her she'd be dead by the end of the week if she didn't make her break then.  Sad thing is, her story is really pretty commonplace.
 
slave luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

during one particular incident, had their 13 yr. old son videotape the whole incident.  The children were witness to the abuse on many occasions and had even been made to participate by calling their mother a "white ho slut" and by helping him restrain her.

i can understand some people wanting to try to justify, even in a very small way, this man's actions  by saying he's ignorant and uneducated about the lifestyle... but the one thing that blows any such attempt out of the water is the fact that he involved the children

it doesn't take knowledge of the lifestyle to know not to bring kids in on this kind of scenario, it's basic common sense and a standard of social and ethical mores the world over

the fact that he forced her to call him "master" has nothing to do with any D/s fantasies; but about his desire to control his wife and self validation... the man is probably someone who has very little control over his lot in life (at least in his own perspective) and has taken control in the only way he can, by abusing his wife and children [and even if this is the only form such child abuse takes (which is quite doubtful), it is no less damaging and traumatic to the children]

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

But do bdsmer's get to take the word Master and put a copyright on it?  Just because this guy called himself a master of something or someone doesn't automatically associate him with bdsm.  Yet in our minds (as bdsmers), that is the first place we go with it
Well, yeah.  i use the word many times everyday to refer to the most important Man in my life.  Of course, that's the first place i go with it[:)]

What is a dungeon to most people?  Its a dark, dreary, scary place, historically (I think) used as a place to hold an unwilling captor.  

What is a dungeon to bdsmers?  It's a fun play ground where they go to get off.

I think there is a hyper-sensitivity among bdsmers over certain words being used by non-bdsmers
Sure, i would agree with that in my case.  Not hyper-sensitive but just well aware of how and in which context they are used. 

Let us not forget, that it was us who started re-coining terms like Master, slave, punishment, dungeon etc etc.   Im not trying to get on a labeling debate.  But these words actually mean something in reality.  And it is WE who have decided to bend those meanings to our sub-culture. Then we get offended when someone else does the same thing, or uses the terms  in a non-bdsm context, because we feel that they are doing US an injustice. 
Wow...once again, very excellent points.  As i said in my original post, it did offend/sadden me to hear that piece of trash refer to himself as "master."  It's not because i think it's my place to determine who and who is not a master but for the simple fact that i have a Master in my life and i love, value, respect, and cherish Him above everyone and everything else.  To hear that scumbag call himself a word that i use to describe the best Man i've ever known....yeah, that struck a nerve for sure.   i guess my beef is not so much the usage of the words as a whole (in the non-bdsm world) but just that he would consider himself anywhere even NEAR the same league as my precious Master.  Just basically a gut reaction i had, that's all[:D]............luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

But do bdsmer's get to take the word Master and put a copyright on it?  Just because this guy called himself a master of something or someone doesn't automatically associate him with bdsm.  Yet in our minds (as bdsmers), that is the first place we go with it. 

What is a dungeon to most people?  Its a dark, dreary, scary place, historically (I think) used as a place to hold an unwilling captor.  

What is a dungeon to bdsmers?  It's a fun play ground where they go to get off.


I think there is a hyper-sensitivity among bdsmers over certain words being used by non-bdsmers.  Let us not forget, that it was us who started re-coining terms like Master, slave, punishment, dungeon etc etc.   Im not trying to get on a labeling debate.  But these words actually mean something in reality.  And it is WE who have decided to bend those meanings to our sub-culture. Then we get offended when someone else does the same thing, or uses the terms  in a non-bdsm context, because we feel that they are doing US an injustice. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde
what i think the issue is; is that in these times where bdsm has been getting a bit of media coverage (whether it's from watching CSI, a movie with Sam Jackson, a bunch of links on a webpage being spammed, or a negative representation of us in the news), that we are no longer the only ones who think of bdsm when we hear words like "master" or "slave" and the like
Wonderful point - why didn't i think to say that?[;)]........luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

But do bdsmer's get to take the word Master and put a copyright on it?  Just because this guy called himself a master of something or someone doesn't automatically associate him with bdsm.  Yet in our minds (as bdsmers), that is the first place we go with it
Well, yeah.  i use the word many times everyday to refer to the most important Man in my life.  Of course, that's the first place i go with it[:)]

What is a dungeon to most people?  Its a dark, dreary, scary place, historically (I think) used as a place to hold an unwilling captor.  

What is a dungeon to bdsmers?  It's a fun play ground where they go to get off.

I think there is a hyper-sensitivity among bdsmers over certain words being used by non-bdsmers
Sure, i would agree with that in my case.  Not hyper-sensitive but just well aware of how and in which context they are used. 

Let us not forget, that it was us who started re-coining terms like Master, slave, punishment, dungeon etc etc.   Im not trying to get on a labeling debate.  But these words actually mean something in reality.  And it is WE who have decided to bend those meanings to our sub-culture. Then we get offended when someone else does the same thing, or uses the terms  in a non-bdsm context, because we feel that they are doing US an injustice. 
Wow...once again, very excellent points.  As i said in my original post, it did offend/sadden me to hear that piece of trash refer to himself as "master."  It's not because i think it's my place to determine who and who is not a master but for the simple fact that i have a Master in my life and i love, value, respect, and cherish Him above everyone and everything else.  To hear that scumbag call himself a word that i use to describe the best Man i've ever known....yeah, that struck a nerve for sure.   i guess my beef is not so much the usage of the words as a whole (in the non-bdsm world) but just that he would consider himself anywhere even NEAR the same league as my precious Master.  Just basically a gut reaction i had, that's all[:D]............luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
I dont mean you specifically. I mean I see this trend among the issues and threads.  I am likely prone to it myself.  I think what we have done to some extent is of course defined for ourselves what these terms mean as they apply to bdsm and our own relationships and have gotten to a point where it is hard for us to fathom these words being used in any other context.  In this guy's mind, maybe he thinks he is a master the same way some other nut might think he is superman and jump off a building thinking he can fly. 
Im not saying that his 'masterdom' should be accepted as bdsm masterdom, I am merely saying that I think we have gotten so used to certain words in particular as being exclusive to bdsm when in reality they are anything but.
Understood and agreed[:)].........luci

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

But do bdsmer's get to take the word Master and put a copyright on it?  Just because this guy called himself a master of something or someone doesn't automatically associate him with bdsm.  Yet in our minds (as bdsmers), that is the first place we go with it. 

What is a dungeon to most people?  Its a dark, dreary, scary place, historically (I think) used as a place to hold an unwilling captor.  

What is a dungeon to bdsmers?  It's a fun play ground where they go to get off.


I think there is a hyper-sensitivity among bdsmers over certain words being used by non-bdsmers.  Let us not forget, that it was us who started re-coining terms like Master, slave, punishment, dungeon etc etc.   Im not trying to get on a labeling debate.  But these words actually mean something in reality.  And it is WE who have decided to bend those meanings to our sub-culture. Then we get offended when someone else does the same thing, or uses the terms  in a non-bdsm context, because we feel that they are doing US an injustice. 

i don't think anyone is claiming to have the sole right to use the word "master" or "slave", and i doubt anyone is being overly sensitive

what i think the issue is; is that in these times where bdsm has been getting a bit of media coverage (whether it's from watching CSI, a movie with Sam Jackson, a bunch of links on a webpage being spammed, or a negative representation of us in the news), that we are no longer the only ones who think of bdsm when we hear words like "master" or "slave" and the like

and if other sub-groups of society are allowed to get bent out of shape and even get people fired or blacklisted for possible offhand remarks using terms that they claim as their own, why can't we?

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde
and if other sub-groups of society are allowed to get bent out of shape and even get people fired or blacklisted for possible offhand remarks using terms that they claim as their own, why can't we?

why would we want to? 

People will always make their own decisions and pass their own judgements based on their own values.  Why get bent out of shape over it?