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RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 8:54:33 PM   
Dauric


Posts: 254
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		I've had the displeasure of an education in advertizing and graphic design. Web development was my field, I eventually wanted to get in to computer games... long story.

It's not product placement in itself that gets my ire, it's advertizing as a whole, and my ire comes with familiarity with the techniques used in marketing to get people to buy things.

It's all about instilling fear in people. You're not cool enough without our product. You're not socially acceptable without our product. You have an illness that can only be cured by our producty and you didn't even know you were suffering from it.

And the bitch of it all: they use advertizing instead of making a better product. Advertizers create fear, doubt and uncertanty, present their product as the panacea for all these ailments, but it doesn't live up to their claims, doesn't soothe the fears or lessen the uncertanty that they themselves instilled in their customers.

And the "Good Deeds" that these companies do? Watch them carefully. General Motors developed a Hydrogen-Fuel-Cell car concept called the "Skateboard" as one of their "Advanced Research" PR campaigns. A unified chassis that you could attach whatever body type you wanted to it, be it sedan, roadster or light truck*. It came with another little "Innovation", a safety feature that forced the driver to keep their hands firmly graped on the controls or the vehicle would shut down. I don't know how much you all drive, but I drive about half an hour one-way in my commute to work and back, that's far, far to long to keep my hands clenched on a dead-man-switch. The dead man switch, and their faults, are nothing new. It's a feature designed to prevent the skateboard from ever seeing production.

*Anyone who lives in snowy climates will notice something else, the chassis is the same for any car or truck, the same low, almost nonexistant, ground clearance caused by having the same car-style suspension. Automakers would know better than to suggest a car chassis for hauling heavy loads.

I pretty much listen to NPR and watch PBS these days.

$0.02,

Dauric.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 8:57:23 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Not to mention all those really bloody annoying "truth" campaigns Phillip Morris funds.


Which are many times anyting but.


Anything but annoying? I disagree. I've heard the "smoking is bad!" mantra hammered at me more times then I can remember. I'm sick of it. Yes it's bad. The younger generation has the message. To the point of wanting to rebel against the fucking ads and light up to spite them.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:01:35 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuomas


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Not to mention all those really bloody annoying "truth" campaigns Phillip Morris funds.

Didn't see them, really. But I've seen terribly inaccurate "anti-smoking" campaign advertizements, not to mention tobacco companies being forced to put misleading labels on their own products.

Personally, I think this whole notion that society knows best, and that is best for you should be promoted in popular entertainment just another symptom of our degrading democracy. People are able to make rational decisions based on the pros and cons of any given product. It's not my -or the company's- fault that people are suckers and buy things because they see them in a movie.

If someone is stupid enough to thing it's cool to smoke because they see Brad Pitt light up -well, they are morons and deserve to get lung cancer.


Agreed!

My father earned his living removing cancer. Guess what? He smokes cigars, my mom prefers her cigs. Me? I used to smoke but quit because I prefered beer and only had the pocket money for one or the other. I asked him once why he still smoked, knowing that danger it can do first-hand. His response: "We are all doing to die of something. Might as well go out doing something you enjoy."

By the way... sometime I want the stats on how many out of a total of smokers get lung cancer vs. how many out of a total of people die climbing Everast (SP?). Both are dangerous, both can lead to death, yet one is heroic? Either doing something that will probably kill you is bad or it's not!

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 5/10/2007 9:03:44 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Tuomas)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:06:13 PM   
Dauric


Posts: 254
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		Just smoke away from me, that's all I ask. My first job out of high school I got chemical burns to my trachea and upper lungs, they'll never completely heal. Ye Olde Second-Hand tobbaco smoke is worse than moderately smoggy days, it feels like breathing a thin layer of rubbing alchohol.

Otherwise, you want to smoke, have fun.

$0.02,

Dauric.

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:10:37 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

it ads to the realism to have people smoking.


If it truly adds to the realism, wouldn't the screenwriter have worked it in anyway?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:11:45 PM   
Tuomas


Posts: 242
Joined: 2/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dauric
And the bitch of it all: they use advertizing instead of making a better product. Advertizers create fear, doubt and uncertanty, present their product as the panacea for all these ailments, but it doesn't live up to their claims, doesn't soothe the fears or lessen the uncertanty that they themselves instilled in their customers.

Dauric, this makes me more concerned about the people who buy these things for the reasons you mentioned, more than the companies who use them. Advertizement has always been the most accurate barrometre of society, because it's entirely about getting to people. I've seen a worrying trend where the favorable aspects of a product have been fased out of advertizing to be replaced with "image" and the fear factor. This means people are making their decisions not on logical facts, but on emotional responses to what they see on TV or in movie theatres.

I don't know where this lack of thinking comes from, or what it's cause is, but I do think it's something that needs to be addressed seriously and soon. Advertizement is just a symptom of a much deeper desease.

Hating advertizement is like breaking the thermometre that tells you you have a fever...

(in reply to Dauric)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:14:07 PM   
AquaticSub


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Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

it ads to the realism to have people smoking.


If it truly adds to the realism, wouldn't the screenwriter have worked it in anyway?


Do you happen to have the numbers on how many screenwriters have taken money to put smoking into a movie? Somehow I just don't think it's very high. Most product placement is for things that were already in the script (like a soda) and they picked what brand to use based on who would fork over the dough.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:15:32 PM   
Tuomas


Posts: 242
Joined: 2/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
Agreed!

My father earned his living removing cancer. Guess what? He smokes cigars, my mom prefers her cigs. Me? I used to smoke but quit because I prefered beer and only had the pocket money for one or the other. I asked him once why he still smoked, knowing that danger it can do first-hand. His response: "We are all doing to die of something. Might as well go out doing something you enjoy."

By the way... sometime I want the stats on how many out of a total of smokers get lung cancer vs. how many out of a total of people die climbing Everast (SP?). Both are dangerous, both can lead to death, yet one is heroic? Either doing something that will probably kill you is bad or it's not!

A very excelent point. I'd like to compare those stats as well. Although I should point out that after a bunch of college students (friends of mine) died while trying to cross the Southern Ice Shelf, people in this country started to advocate that "extreme sports" be banned, particularly mountain climbing, because it was too dangerous. *rolls eyes*

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:17:52 PM   
Dauric


Posts: 254
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		I agree with you that it's a symptom of a larger issue with our society, but I wouldn't equate it to a thermometer, I'd equate it to a severe stomachache.

The manufacturers then proceed to exploit that stomachache by hitting you in the gut and stealing your money.

Then their buddy will sell you some asprin for the pain.

I'm cynical about it because the advertizrers that I've met in my education think of people as...walking wallets. Sheep to be shorn, pigs to be blead and slaughtered. They're as cynical about you as I am of them.

$0.02,

Dauric.

(in reply to Tuomas)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:17:56 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

it ads to the realism to have people smoking.


If it truly adds to the realism, wouldn't the screenwriter have worked it in anyway?


Do you happen to have the numbers on how many screenwriters have taken money to put smoking into a movie? Somehow I just don't think it's very high. Most product placement is for things that were already in the script (like a soda) and they picked what brand to use based on who would fork over the dough.


No idea. Until tonight, I didn't even know there was product placement for smoking. It's interesting in that, unlike a pure product placement, a smoking placement involves introducing an action that would not be in the script otherwise.

It would also be interesting to know if product placements are considered advertising. Cigarette ads, after all, are required to have warning labels, which would be impossible to do in a movie.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:18:35 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		Sometimes I really wonder if we will end up in padded rooms, eating gruel - forbidden from doing anything exciting, fun and *le gasp* dangerous because we might get killed.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Tuomas)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:19:25 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

after a bunch of college students (friends of mine) died while trying to cross the Southern Ice Shelf,


My sympathies on the loss of your friends, Tuomas.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Tuomas)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:20:09 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

No idea. Until tonight, I didn't even know there was product placement for smoking. It's interesting in that, unlike a pure product placement, a smoking placement involves introducing an action that would not be in the script otherwise.

It would also be interesting to know if product placements are considered advertising. Cigarette ads, after all, are required to have warning labels, which would be impossible to do in a movie.


What makes you believe that? Plenty of characters in modern novels are smokers and I haven't heard of any product placement in novels. How do you know those characters didn't already smoke in the concept and script stages before the product placement ever came in?

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 5/10/2007 9:22:55 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:23:02 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

No idea. Until tonight, I didn't even know there was product placement for smoking. It's interesting in that, unlike a pure product placement, a smoking placement involves introducing an action that would not be in the script otherwise.

It would also be interesting to know if product placements are considered advertising. Cigarette ads, after all, are required to have warning labels, which would be impossible to do in a movie.


What makes you believe that? Plenty of characters in modern novels are smokers and I haven't heard of any product placement in novels. How do you know those character didn't already smoke in the concept and script stages before the product placement ever came in?


If the character was going to be smoking anyway, there'd be no point in paying for the placement.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:24:47 PM   
Dauric


Posts: 254
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

No idea. Until tonight, I didn't even know there was product placement for smoking. It's interesting in that, unlike a pure product placement, a smoking placement involves introducing an action that would not be in the script otherwise.

It would also be interesting to know if product placements are considered advertising. Cigarette ads, after all, are required to have warning labels, which would be impossible to do in a movie.


What makes you believe that? Plenty of characters in modern novels are smokers and I haven't heard of any product placement in novels. How do you know those character didn't already smoke in the concept and script stages before the product placement ever came in?


If the character was going to be smoking anyway, there'd be no point in paying for the placement.


Yes there is. To make sure the character is smoking the -right- brand of cigarettes. You can't be just like the hero if you don't smoke the same brand as him/her.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:27:37 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		That's different. A brand placement I understand.

But what someone seemed to be saying earlier in the thread was that companies were paying simply to have characters light up.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Dauric)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:28:10 PM   
Wildnfreehrt2004


Posts: 51
Joined: 9/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuomas

I guess we are not capible of deciding what is good for us...

Yes, companies do pay for product placement. However, isn't it usually the antagonists who smoke? Waterworld, for example?

Anyway, much as I hate smoking and am in fact allergic to tobacco smoke, I'm very much against this current fad of going after smokers and "tobacco companies". Yeah, tobacco increases your chance of cancer. So does drinking pop, and eating McDonnald's hamburgers regularly will increase your risk of obesity and associated deseases. Should they be illegal too? Should children be "protected" from "companies" in the media?

People forget that the right to choose means that you actually have the option to be wrong...


However, a person drinking soda, eating McDonald's etc doesn't directly affect other people's health/lifespan/quality of life (as having bad health) to the extent that second hand smoke does..... Do those other people get to choose whether to be exposed to tobacco smoke in the same way they can choose not to be exposed to soda, McD's, alcohol, et al...?

Btw, the question was only rhetorical, not aimed at any particular person, it was just an different opinion expressed to the words in the above post.
Wildy

(in reply to Tuomas)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:32:55 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I haven't heard of any product placement in novels.


I hadn't either, but found this link interesting:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/novels/product_placement

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:33:13 PM   
Dauric


Posts: 254
Joined: 7/13/2006
Status: offline 		Oh, It's just an increase in the cost of doing business. No company is going to pay money so that a character will smoke a nameless brand, they'll pay for the brand placement along with the smoking placement. It's all the same bill to the manufacturer. Disgusting part is that regulations don't keep pace with inflation. The relation between the profits from a carton of tobacco product and the fees imposed by advertizing it become smaller each year, even adding fees as you go along.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Smoking and Hollywood - 5/10/2007 9:35:58 PM   
Tuomas


Posts: 242
Joined: 2/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dauric

I agree with you that it's a symptom of a larger issue with our society, but I wouldn't equate it to a thermometer, I'd equate it to a severe stomachache.

The manufacturers then proceed to exploit that stomachache by hitting you in the gut and stealing your money.

Then their buddy will sell you some asprin for the pain.

I'm cynical about it because the advertizrers that I've met in my education think of people as...walking wallets. Sheep to be shorn, pigs to be blead and slaughtered. They're as cynical about you as I am of them.

$0.02,

Dauric.

Advertizers, certainly. I think they are special breed of ... well, I can't say "human" being But, that doesn't mean we have to blame the companies that are required by their customers to hire them.

(in reply to Dauric)
Profile   Post #: 40
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