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Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 10:46:09 AM   
SmilinFSub


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline 		As a novice I can't help wonder if these sexual submissive preferences of mine are normal. What do u think? What is the answer to the age-old question of envirornment VS genetics?

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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 10:51:09 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		The answer is...

"Yes"

My sexual preferences are generally very different from my relationship preferences.

For me, I was born, or as much as one can reasonably be born, with this orientation as a bi poly slave. My personality was formed as a very dominant person.

I'm sure we all have varying experiences and exposures which help us become who we are, no matter what our orientation is.

I can't tell you what is normal for you, and in the end it doesn't really matter. What matters is what makes you fulfilled in who you are.

(in reply to SmilinFSub)
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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 11:11:10 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I think that whether or not anyone can say it is normal or not..........cause who is the one we judge normalcy by if you read the banner and you know this is not the only site, and you set your search to female submissives all, all, all, all you will certainly see that you are not alone and it is common.............

Sincerely,
Ron

(in reply to SmilinFSub)
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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 11:22:23 AM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		i have deucded that i am not normal.

i was stabbed with an amnio needle in the womb

the doc slapped my face instead of my rear

and i'm sure i was dropped on my head a few times


(light sense of humour coming your way)

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 11:35:41 AM   
BobcatsLilMinx


Posts: 201
Joined: 4/8/2005
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

As a novice I can't help wonder if these sexual submissive preferences of mine are normal. What do u think?


As a psychology student, I tend to take the view that "normal" is defined by a statistical frequency. I was always taught along the lines of: 0-25% = statistical infrequncy; 26-50% = statistical frequency; 51-100% = statistical majority.

Now, if you were to ask 100 women in Indiana if they would describe themselves as "sexually submissive", I have no idea what answer you'd get - on the one hand, women in the 21st century are not taught that submissiveness is a particularly desirable characteristic; on the other, most women today still regard it the social norm for the man make the first move, for him to offer to pay for dinner, etc. (Although this one may not last much longer, I know). My guess would be though that a larger amount of women would describe themselves as sexually submissive than you might think. I know when I asked around my group of girlfriends, I was surprised how many of them could comfortably admit they were submissive, just not into the kink. So my guess would be that 26-50% of women in any sample might call themselves submissive (this would be determined by repeating the study and finding an average, of course)

quote:

What is the answer to the age-old question of envirornment VS genetics?


Gods, is there an answer even?? In my own situation, I believe environment played the key role in the development of my submissive personality, as I know for a fact I was "trained" to be submissive by my parents from the second I was old enough to voice an opinion. A lot of people have told me I should try to re-train myself, to overwrire this conditioning, and I've often wondered if I should. But at the end of the day, isn't it better to learn to be happy with who you are, than it is to exhaust yourself (and possibly your funds) by trying to become what society dictates?

I guess, in a nutshell, don't worry about who or what is normal, cuz at the end of the day if it is abnormal, then there's a lot of us about!! And so long as we're all happy with our choices and our lifestyles, and not harming anyone else (except in the good way *grins*), thats all that matters.

And thank you, I needed to revise statistical normalacy

Minx

(in reply to SmilinFSub)
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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 11:37:52 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Define normal.... Then I will answer your question.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 12:08:25 PM   
SmilinFSub


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline 		I have absolutely no idea what normal is and I would never expect anyone but me to determine what does/not make me happy. But by the shear existance and usage of this site, haven't we admitted we go against the grain?

I agree, if we are happy and not hurting anyone, "GO FOR IT." I really like the, "Why exhaust ourselves by being what we're not?," reply. But I wonder...if we did not choose what we are; would we willingly do it again? Did we just 'cave in' because our internal fight wasn't strong enough to seek what we really want?

At the end of the day it easier to accept how we were raised and go with that flow. However, at the end of our lives and as we raise children ourselves, what is better then? What is the legacy we want to leave?

I seek a challenging partner. I don't care if he challenges himself or not. Maybe he is confident / resolved enough of himself. But...I will won't stick around if he doesn't make me question who I am. If he doesn't make me grow, what is he good for?

And yes..I will question his beliefs as well. I believe if you love someone, you accept them and try to improve them by making them self-question.

I too believe more women would admit to being submissive (or complacent) than would admit to participating in acts that are deemed lewd by society. I pity them.

I really enjoy this forum. Thank you.



< Message edited by SmilinFSub -- 5/9/2005 1:10:41 PM >

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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 1:49:16 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I wouldn't want to reply to the question about normality, because my normal, isn't what is normal for another.

By societies definition - I am not normal... lol... and I love it!

If I want to be a machine, be complacent, be uncomplicated, be boring... (well, IMO - that is normal) I prefere the word 'unique - for that is what I am.

And my uniqueness is as valid as anything else that exists. I don't even feel a need to justify what I am - If I am not accepted, then that is another persons loss(sounds conceted I know, by hey) My likes, my dislikes, my desires, my needs are what make me, me - and if I deny them then I deny my identity.

I tend to disagree with the 'as long as it is 'not harming anyone else (except in the good way *grins*)',(sorry Minx! urgh - not picking on ya, just using your words, hope its ok!) statement - because there are things in WIITWD that do effect others non consensually... if we (generic) enjoy leather, PVC, rubber, cuffs, bondage - this effects others and I think that the realisation and acceptance of our own responsibilites(IMO) of this fact that is more important than the kinks themself.


quote:

At the end of the day it easier to accept how we were raised and go with that flow. However, at the end of our lives and as we raise children ourselves, what is better then? What is the legacy we want to leave?


What is better then? - To just be yourself. If you raise children with lies, hiding things, making them see you are hiding - they are bright creatures (chukling - my son loves being called that, so I am allowed) and they aren't easily fooled. Teach them to be honest with themself, teach them to be aware of the enviroment around them, and you will raise beautiful, unblemished adults ready to take on the world.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SmilinFSub)
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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 1:54:25 PM   
BobcatsLilMinx


Posts: 201
Joined: 4/8/2005
From: UK
Status: offline 		Hmm..... I may be asking a completely stupid question here, but I'm sorry dark~angel, I am still learning! How does the enjoyment of... [goes looking for the list...] "leather, PVC, rubber, cuffs, bondage" within a relationship affect others non-consensually?

Thankee! And as for using my words, well, I'll fax you the contracts later, and we can discuss royalties then

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 2:09:46 PM   
Mariposa


Posts: 37
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline 		Haha. I always enjoy your posts, Ms. Minx. I marginally passed my ungraded Psych 101 course. (VC requires that every student take one quantitative course if they are not a science major.) Anyway, as a student of literary criticism (who has been writing an essay on subject-object relations and the possibility of a (transcendent?) non-masculine subjectivity in Djuna Barne's Nightwood), I would have to say that the OP can only be "normal" in Freudian terms (i.e. not perverse) if he/she is female. Woo. (We should all put stock in Freud, kids!)ddd

< Message edited by Mariposa -- 5/9/2005 2:11:01 PM >

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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 5:40:11 PM   
SmilinFSub


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline 		BINGO...I think that is what I grapple with most....living authentically in front of my kids re: 'the lifestyle.' As a novice to d/s I am a bit......well...um...unwilling to announce my preferences on the Little League loud speaker.

This site is full of intelligent, well-spoken folks who make no excuses for who they are. Please tell me why is it a lifestyle and not just sex?? It has always 'just been sex' for me and now, for the first time ever, I admit it has not been enough.

Thanks!


(in reply to Mariposa)
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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 6:10:38 PM   
Vancouver_cinful


Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
Status: offline 		No, it's not normal, since normal simply means of the norm or majority. And no, the majority of people aren't into this.

Are you asking if it's natural? Yes, it occurs in nature in primates. There are definitely dominant apes and those lower in the heirarchy do display submission. This is common in most pack or tribal mammals (such as humans).

To be honest the real question that matters is Is it healthy? And that depends on you and how you chose to express your submissiveness.

Personally, I believe that in my case I was born this way, as were my dad and my sister. My other siblings don't seem to have inherited it from my dad. My mom is dominant.

Cin

_____________________________

Cin

quote:


My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 6:43:32 PM   
ansfrid


Posts: 24
Joined: 3/26/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful
To be honest the real question that matters is Is it healthy? And that depends on you and how you chose to express your submissiveness.


Well put...the only question that matters....well, along with do you like it.

Personally, I believe (with no evidence to back it up) that it;s mostly environmental. There will be some genetic reactions in terms of how one reacts to pain and other stimuli, but the desire to dominate or submit I think is largely a learned behaviour, or definitely was for me. However, ultimately....who care. Enjoy it....responsibly, and it's all good.

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 8:17:39 PM   
SmilinFSub


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline 		Beautifully put Van Cin. I really appreciate the wisdom I am finding here more than I can express.

The hardest thing for me is admitting any weakness and submission is (on the surface) admitting exactly that. How do you learn to surrender?

Thanks.

< Message edited by SmilinFSub -- 5/9/2005 8:30:02 PM >

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RE: Normal or not? - 5/9/2005 8:43:55 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

The hardest thing for me is admitting any weakness and submission is (on the surface) admitting exactly that. How do you learn to surrender?


You get to know someone and as you do you slowly begin to trust them. When you do you will know when it is right to surrender to them.
It will be second nature when you find the right person.

(in reply to SmilinFSub)
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RE: Normal or not? - 5/10/2005 2:02:47 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

Hmm..... I may be asking a completely stupid question here, but I'm sorry dark~angel, I am still learning! How does the enjoyment of... [goes looking for the list...] "leather, PVC, rubber, cuffs, bondage" within a relationship affect others non-consensually?

Thankee! And as for using my words, well, I'll fax you the contracts later, and we can discuss royalties then


Darrum - ya mean I gots to pay? Geez... can't I just beg or something? Oh - damn - your the wrong end - that won't work - ummm.... how about... a pair of shoes?


It can be said that leather is non consensual to animals, since they don't conceed their skin humanly - cuffs and any metal materials when made using either factories or even by hand still emit harmful gases and deplete the ozone and the production of, and discarding of PVC, rubber, and certain bondage tapes effect the enviroment (so effects others in and outside WIITWD) - so trying to find resources that help, rather than add are a big step in accepting that not all kinks are consensual, as difficult as that may be to realise. Maybe I seem to be taking it to an extreme level, but if we understand the issues and are able to help mangae them efficiantly(sp?) and are able to accept our responsibilites (yup - that mean subs an slaves as well(even via ones Owner)) - then we are looking forward not back. And as V-C so elloquently put - it isn't so much about being 'normal' but natural. And to be natural in this 'normal' world we live takes a fuck load of hard work, yes - but the rewards are astonishing.

There are very few 'kinks' that are consensual if you think about it in the terms I offer above. IMO - that makes them even more 'normal' (if you can see what I am heading at - lol) Very few things in life are consensual - accepting our responsibilities means we accept our individual imperfections. And if we can see our own imperfections - it helps us understand others and makes them acceptable making the world a much more unified place to inhabit.

Just my opinion - not gospel! (yay - disclaimers!)

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to BobcatsLilMinx)
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RE: Normal or not? - 5/10/2005 2:06:02 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

The hardest thing for me is admitting any weakness and submission is (on the surface) admitting exactly that. How do you learn to surrender?


By coming to the realisation that to submit, one has to be strong.

Submission isn't for the weak. It takes an awful lot of trust, strength and wisdom. Knowing what you are, what you like, accepting yourself for all your kinks - and realising you can grow is a very uplifting and releasing sensation.

Peace and Love

*typo edit

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to SmilinFSub)
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RE: Normal or not? - 5/10/2005 2:10:50 AM   
BeachMystress


Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SmilinFSub
This site is full of intelligent, well-spoken folks who make no excuses for who they are. Please tell me why is it a lifestyle and not just sex?? It has always 'just been sex' for me and now, for the first time ever, I admit it has not been enough.


I do understand what you mean about the just sex part of it not being enough. I need BDSM to extend into all areas of my life. Mostly because I don't role play being Dominant.. this is just the way I am. I drive any non submissive male nuts after a while. I expect to be obeyed, catered to and loved.

The reason I consider the way my fiancee and I live a "lifestyle", is because it is the way we interact daily. While I don't give him commands 24/7 or make him crawl around on the floor, there are D/s elements to all parts of our lives. Our relationship resembles a 1950's marriage with him as the wife. He cooks (My "wife" is a good cook, by the way. lol), cleans, does laundry, washes the car, gets my food and drinks, polishes my nails, washes my hair and bathes me, fetches and carries for me and such. Does he always feel like doing these things? Of course not.. no more than that 1950's wife did. It is responsibility to the one they love. That is what makes it a lifestyle.

As to why I think we feel the need to make it into a lifestyle rather than just leave it as kinky sex is that we like to know our place in the order of things. Stability is a need for most people.

Also, as you become more comfortable in your role, you enjoy it more. When you like something, you want to do it more often.




_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to SmilinFSub)
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RE: Normal or not? - 5/10/2005 5:50:13 AM   
infyniti


Posts: 37
Joined: 8/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What is the answer to the age-old question of envirornment VS genetics?
We could be searching that answer until the end of time. I don't we will ever find it. I sought for years to " figure out" why things made me tick. I majored in Psychology back in College... ( not telling how far " back" was...) :-) in order to find some answer to all these feelings I had. I was miserable in a vanilla marriage ( not that he wasn't a jerk to start with, what was i thinking??) and finally sought out others who shared my ideals and values. Maybe because my mother never paid attention to me , do i seek attention now? Maybe my family has some kink that i just don't know about?
I think we all reach a certain age and we need to let go and accept ourselves for who we really are and what we value in life.

peace
infyniti

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RE: Normal or not? - 5/10/2005 6:08:36 AM   
SmilinFSub


Posts: 42
Joined: 5/1/2005
Status: offline 		Infyniti...I am so glad you mentioned your Mom. I have been biting my tongue since I began participating in these insightful discussions.

I have a real need for my Mom's approval and have never gotten it. (Nobody is good enough for her). Up until now I have 'fought off' my inclination to 'people please' men in the vanilla world bc I see that tendency in me directly related to needing Mommy Dearest. (jk)

I am tiring of the fight and don't want to replace my needs re: her (that I will never get) with a man. I guess for me submitting outside the bedroom seems like a fate I can't escape and I hate that.

Boy...I sure complain a lot but this is a huge admission for me and I don't know anyone in RT who understands. All the women I have 'met' here seem so accepting of who they are. How do I get to that point w/o being resentful of my upbringing / lack of it.

Thank you sincerely.

I wish we could all have coffee 2gether. ;)



< Message edited by SmilinFSub -- 5/10/2005 6:15:16 AM >

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