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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 10:10:50 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Your hatred for Rome is simply a reflection of your entire anti-Western bias.

FirmKY


I'm not anti-western, imperialism is something that doesn't float my boat and Rome thought nothing about commiting genocide to fullfill its imperial aims.

As for western achievements, the democracy and culture of the barbarians or the north Germanic tribes was far more impressive and civilised and far from advancing civilisation, the Romans set it back.

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 10:25:18 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Your hatred for Rome is simply a reflection of your entire anti-Western bias.

FirmKY


I'm not anti-western, imperialism is something that doesn't float my boat and Rome thought nothing about commiting genocide to fullfill its imperial aims.

As for western achievements, the democracy and culture of the barbarians or the north Germanic tribes was far more impressive and civilised and far from advancing civilisation, the Romans set it back.


uh ... care to cite and source any of those "impressive and civilised" achievements?

FirmKY

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 1:25:17 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Your hatred for Rome is simply a reflection of your entire anti-Western bias.

FirmKY


I'm not anti-western, imperialism is something that doesn't float my boat and Rome thought nothing about commiting genocide to fullfill its imperial aims.

As for western achievements, the democracy and culture of the barbarians or the north Germanic tribes was far more impressive and civilised and far from advancing civilisation, the Romans set it back.


uh ... care to cite and source any of those "impressive and civilised" achievements?

FirmKY


Er...democracy, the political and property rights of women,  a more humanitarian and civilized society. There visual arts were on par with Rome's. It is now realised that many of the Roman roads in places like Britain pre-date Roman conquest and even sewers and heating systems have been found way beyond the boundaries of the Roman empire, putting into question how Roman these innovations were.

In fact if you read the history of such barbarians as Herman the German (Arminius), Aleric, Attilla the Hun, etc. You will find more thoughtful, less blood thirsty and overall more balanced people than was produced by Rome. The history that has comes down to us is one that was propergated by the Church of Rome rather than the reality of what happened. Over the last twenty years the whole period of the first centuries AD of Europe are in the process of being reassessed as more knowledge is accumulated.

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 5:02:55 PM   
minnetar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:



It doesnt need nukes. What Iraq needs is a better President in the US with some balls. And they need leadership in their own country.


And that's the problem in a nutshell.

"Leadership" of "Their own country" will never resolve the simple fact that there is no "Country".

There are, what, FOUR DIFFERENT factions in play? Each one has a Conservative, Moderate, and Radical wing.

Sunni
Shiia
Persian
Kurds

The Turks make 5 perhaps...

The naive belief that a Strong Government ( that isn't Strong-Like-Saddam ) can keep a lid on the simmering vendettas is the cause of much of the problems.

Here's something to consider: THE IRAQIS WILL *NEVER* SIT DOWN, PASS THE HOOKAH, AND FUCKING SING KUMBAYA.

No matter how much someone prays to G-d, OR believe G-d is telling him so.

George, Take off the Birkenstocks and put away the Bong, wake the fuck up.




Fargle i agree with this completely.  This is a civil war.  They are not animals but based on religious beliefs many are martyrs willing to die and kill others based on their beliefs.

minnetar

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 5:23:52 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		Well, no cites or sources this time either. 

Correct me if I am wrong about what you are claiming:  According to you, during the centuries of the height of Rome's power, it was the tribes to the east, west and north - primarily germanic tribes such as the goths and the vandals, along with the Celtic tribes, the Norse, and even Asian tribes such as Huns which had a higher degree of civilization than Rome did?

And these tribes are responsible for such things as women's rights, democracy, massive stone roads, works of art on par with Roman works ...?

Sources?  Cites?

FirmKY


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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 5:25:29 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


And these tribes are responsible for such things as women's rights, democracy, massive stone roads, works of art on par with Roman works ...?

Sources?  Cites?

FirmKY



Prof. Norman Davies, Europe, a history. Barbarians, Terry Jones. There is another book called Barbarians that was made into a TV documentary shown on BBC and the History channel I believe by an Oxford historian but his name escapes me at the moment. There has been quite a few books published by university presses on various so called barbarian tribes but its 2.30am here and I'm not going to sift through my book case at this late hour. But if you consider militarism to be the height of civilisation, then Rome wins the day.

Since you often profer up Christianity as part of western civilisation, Aleric the Goth was a Christian well before Rome was Christianized.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/12/2007 5:54:35 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 6:03:08 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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Status: offline 		Before you say Constantine was a Christian first, he constructed a religion to hold his Empire together that had little resemblance to Christianity but became the main vein of it.

The Conversion of Europe by Richard Fletcher.

Though christianity is a side issue, the culture of the Germanic tribes were far more egalitarian and democratic than Rome could every wish to be and voted in their leaders. It is from this Germanic culture English and north European democracy evolved and the places where people gathered to vote are still there in the names of modern places all over England, north Germany and Scandinavia.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/12/2007 6:08:06 PM >

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 8:21:40 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Though Christianity is a side issue, the culture of the Germanic tribes were far more egalitarian and democratic than Rome could every wish to be and voted in their leaders. It is from this Germanic culture English and north European democracy evolved and the places where people gathered to vote are still there in the names of modern places all over England, north Germany and Scandinavia.


"evolved" is an interesting word.

So, you totally discount the Roman influence on all of these tribes, just as you discount Christian influence as having shaped them as they "evolved" into modern day nation states.

I find this claim to be as nebulous and self-serving as your claim that all science was invented or imported from Moslem empires during the Dark Ages.

You simple refuse to give Western civilization any credit for anything.  It's all bad, and you attempt to discredit the main philosophical and political systems that shaped the current Western nations. Since the majority of historical scholars accept the definition of Western civilization as being based on Greek, Roman, and Christian influences, the only one of these that you haven't come out against is the Greeks.

Were the Greeks a bunch of stupid, worthless, tyranny driven assholes as well, meatcleaver?  Why not bat a thousand?

FirmKY

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 9:11:41 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		Presenting Carthage as a civilized nation is possibly the strangest thing you have ever said on this board. Carthage in the day, was far more aggressive and far more Imperial than Rome, and in fact it was Carthage that turned a small skirmish over the port city of Messana in Sicily, into the major conflict that was the First Punic War.

Cathage also started the Second Punic War, unable to accept the conditions of the peace they themselves asked for, after the war they themselves started. Carthage was not strong enough as a land power to force the final defeat of Rome. The Carthaginian army made extensive use of mercenaries. They could not financially sustain total war with Rome long enough to ever defeat her. Rome recovered quickly from defeat, while defeat at Zama ended Carthaginian resistance.

War with Carthage was not something Rome originally wanted, and was very timid in how they fought the First and Second Punic wars. Carthage saw a growing threat in Rome. Cathaginian power was build on the conquest of Greek colonies in North Africa and Spain, and controlling trade with Greece and Phoenicia. Carthage's greatest fear was that the result of Rome's war with Pyrrus of Epirus, would be a trade alliance with Greece that would be harmful to Carthaginian trade. Rome at this period in history, was very much in favor of soft terms and alliances with enemies past. Carthage saw this war as a fight to the death, which is exactly what she got.

Painting Carthage as a civilized nation, as compaired to Rome, is strictly folly.

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 9:18:29 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:


You simple refuse to give Western civilization any credit for anything.


We were once able to send people to the moon.

You tell me if we're in a decline or not.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 9:59:39 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


You simple refuse to give Western civilization any credit for anything.


We were once able to send people to the moon.

You tell me if we're in a decline or not.


Whether or not we can "still send people to the moon" and whether or not we are "in decline" is two separate issues. If that is your sole metric, then I'd be more than happy to argue against your case.

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 5/12/2007 10:00:27 PM >

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 10:04:34 PM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		It's as valid a metric as any other. Perhaps better:

Our Direct Sphere of Galactic Dominance.

We can't get people to better than what? 150 miles these days? That's the distance from NYC to freaking ALBANY! A 2 hour run on the Thruway...

Big fucking deal.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 10:19:31 PM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's as valid a metric as any other. Perhaps better:

Our Direct Sphere of Galactic Dominance.

We can't get people to better than what? 150 miles these days? That's the distance from NYC to freaking ALBANY! A 2 hour run on the Thruway...

Big fucking deal.


If President Bush sent a mission to Mars tomorrow would you not complain bitterly about the tax dollars spent?

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/12/2007 10:23:23 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's as valid a metric as any other. Perhaps better:

Our Direct Sphere of Galactic Dominance.

We can't get people to better than what? 150 miles these days? That's the distance from NYC to freaking ALBANY! A 2 hour run on the Thruway...

Big fucking deal.


Now I think you have really lost it, FB.

Are you saying that you believe that the Moon is 150 miles away?  Or that we can't get "people" 150 miles away from the planet?

FirmKY


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/13/2007 2:37:07 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Though Christianity is a side issue, the culture of the Germanic tribes were far more egalitarian and democratic than Rome could every wish to be and voted in their leaders. It is from this Germanic culture English and north European democracy evolved and the places where people gathered to vote are still there in the names of modern places all over England, north Germany and Scandinavia.


"evolved" is an interesting word.

So, you totally discount the Roman influence on all of these tribes, just as you discount Christian influence as having shaped them as they "evolved" into modern day nation states.



The starting point in the traditional history of Europe has been that all meaningful European culture comes from Greco-Roman culture. That was started to be challenged some twenty years ago and study and research has started to show that just because a lot of ruins and sculptures were discovered and just because a lot of classical writing survived passing down to us a Roman interpretation on the world they inhabitied and just because 17th and 18th century scholars were mesmerised into thinking what a great and forward looking empire Rome was, doesn't mean to say it was. Life in Europe was not worse or more crude outside the Roman empire than in it and outside it depending where you were could be far more free, such as the north Germanic tribes.

Of course evolved is the right word because the north Germanic tribes didn't have modern Parliamentary systems but they had democratic systems where they elected and deselected their leaders. Women had property rights and kept those rights through marriage and divorce. It is not pure chance that female emancipation began in northern Europe, it was still in the culture, even though it was buried under centuries of Christianity. The Germans (in the broadest sense of the term) guarded their individualism and independence and prefered their values to the wealth offered by Rome. Which incidently would have been wealth to corrupt leaders rather than to enrich the people, rather like western wealth is used now to corrupt and buy leaders with nothing in it for the ordinary people.

Rome was a fascist power. Yes they had aesthetic values but so did the Nazis. It is not for nothing that fascist powers wish to emulate Rome, it is not for nothing that neo-classical architecture is used for many state buildings around the world. There is a hidden message in it. "The occupants of this building are in charge!'

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/13/2007 3:06:48 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I find this claim to be as nebulous and self-serving as your claim that all science was invented or imported from Moslem empires during the Dark Ages.



If you read the history of the Dark Ages, you will find the Dark Ages are not so dark. The Dark Ages is a perjoritive term but inreality it was created and became fashionable because of the ignorance of the living rather than the ignorance of the dead. The Dark Ages beginning at the end of the Roman Empire to around the year 1,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages

There are many reasons for the fall of Rome, losing its bread basket in Northern Africa. The explosion of krakatoa, causing climate change and the wonderings of the tribes pushing across the steppes and across Europe in search of better land. Certainly the weather took a turn for the worse over several decades. The world was in a state of flux but to call it a dark age is nonsense. None of this negates the cultures of the tribes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Were the Greeks a bunch of stupid, worthless, tyranny driven assholes as well, meatcleaver?  Why not bat a thousand?

FirmKY


It is worth noting that their great philosophers could spout magnificent words about the human spirit while all around them slaves were building Athens under their feet. Their words like the bible have always been reinterpreted by contemporary scholars to suit current thinking. Their way of studying the world is how we study it now and is their great achievement but democracy and human dignity is not something we got from the Greeks and certainly not from Rome.

However, both Greek and Rome are indo-Germanic peoples as their religions atest being closely related to Germanic, Celtic, Aryan(Persian) and Hindu religions. There is no reason to doubt that other parts of their cultures were shared but European democracy developed in the north of the continent.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 5/13/2007 3:07:43 AM >

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/13/2007 4:25:48 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:


If President Bush sent a mission to Mars tomorrow would you not complain bitterly about the tax dollars spent?


Possibly. A mission to mars TOMORROW is fucking pointless, as it doesn't develop the CAPABILITY to utilize space.

Congress offering say, 30 billion dollars to the first group that keeps 30+1 Americans live, and healthy on the Moon for 366 days, tax free, I think would stimulate the industries needed, and show results better than NASA.

Shit, the turds from our asses could do a better job than NASA.

Setting up the Navy to deploy Marines to secure orbital assets would be good, too, although it pretty much eliminates everyone but Lock/Mart/Whoever from participating.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/13/2007 4:37:35 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's as valid a metric as any other. Perhaps better:

Our Direct Sphere of Galactic Dominance.

We can't get people to better than what? 150 miles these days? That's the distance from NYC to freaking ALBANY! A 2 hour run on the Thruway...

Big fucking deal.


Now I think you have really lost it, FB.

Are you saying that you believe that the Moon is 150 miles away? Or that we can't get "people" 150 miles away from the planet?

FirmKY



No, because the MOON isn't IN OUR SPHERE OF GALACTIC DOMINANCE.

The "Space Shuttle" can only reach MAX 500 nautical miles.

That's a fucking disgrace.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/13/2007 6:30:09 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Respectfully, you could stand to read more period works, and rely less on broad-brush texts, which tend to paint a nice picture, but only from an impressionistic perspective.

Rome looks very imperial, when looked at in a vacuum. A bit more reliance on period works, might bring you to the conclusion that quite a good number of nations and tribal entities that were brought in to the Roman Empire, did in fact initiate conflict with Rome. This is especially true in the late Republic, early Empire. Cathage initiated conflict with Rome. Celts had been invading Italy for centuries. Egypt sided with one faction in a Roman civil war, Germanic tribes broke a peace treaty with Rome and slaughtered a large Roman army by ambush.

Trying to find a "good guy" or "bad guy" in this period is an exercise in futility. There were no good guys ... they were pretty much all equally bad. What you do find, is individual commanders that practiced great tolerance.

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RE: Ya'll heard about the Anti-war soldier petition, di... - 5/13/2007 11:37:11 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Trying to find a "good guy" or "bad guy" in this period is an exercise in futility. There were no good guys ... they were pretty much all equally bad. What you do find, is individual commanders that practiced great tolerance.


It is remarkably easy to find a good guy bad guy. The bad guy was imperial Rome that set out to conquer and slaughter all who resisted its rule. When it was beaten in Germany it had to wait six years but it got its revenge with the bloody slaughter of German women and children.

However the two cultures of western Europe still exist today, the Germanic and the Latin and it is no surprise that N America has two democracies and central and south America has had an history of dictatorships. Canada and the US having inherited political establishments from N Europe and central and south America inheriting political establishments from Latin Europe. It is no surprise that the North European Reanaisance was more humanistic than the Italian Renaisance. It is no surprise that north Europe lead the way on every liberal social reform, on democracy, womens rights, workers rights, whatever you care to name. The line between Germanic Europe and Roman Europe still exists due to language. 80 miles south of here is the language border, it is still the same border that the Romans created and difference in liberal attitudes on both sides of the divide is remarkable. England is the only exception, Roman culture having been obliterated by the re-establishment of Germanic tribes of the Anglo-Saxons and hence the re-establishment of independent minded peoples.

_____________________________

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