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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 5:17:37 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Which is exactly the argument that NG has made to me about US foreign policy.  That it should reflect the interest of other nations more than the national interests of the US.

And he doesn't see the hypocrisy in it, at all.

FirmKY


I don't want to speak for NG but I'd like to see where he said that. Unless you mean...

the US not attacking Iraq is more in the interests of Iraq than the US, but as events have proved, invading Iraq hasn't been in the interests of the US either, though of course that wasn't the plan.

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 5:23:35 PM   
cloudboy


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Status: offline 		George Tenet, the former director of the CIA under Bush, was on John Stewart this week, and Stewart showed clips of him being beaten up in interviews with various TV news organizations. Stewart was of the opinion that the American public wants to beat up on someone because: 1) Bush has not held anyone in his administration accountable; 2) the public has no access to flog Cheney, Rice or any of the other Bush minions.

Given this frustration, Tenet has been attacked as the accessible equivicator while on his book tour.

The thing about guys like Tenet, Powell, Clark, and O'Neil --- is that they were all outside the Cheney loop of pushing the Bush Agenda through without dissent --- and none of them individually could stop the rush to war --- and for their skepticism and dissent, they were pushed out of their White House positions. (Tenet may not belong in this group.)

On the other hand, a guy like Paul Wolfowitz, who was litterally wrong about absolutely everything in IRAQ, doesn't get kicked to the curb. No, he gets a lateral promotion.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/12/2007 5:24:59 PM >

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 5:26:32 PM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		Well I'm no fan of Tenet. If he knew something was up, why didn't he be the better man and stand up and scream foul? Instead he sat there and went along with it and now is crying because history is going to write him in as a Bush follower. That's his own fault. Just like Colin Powell. He went along with it.

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 5:29:06 PM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Agreed. WHY didn't Tenet speak up back in 2003? Sure it's cool for him to point fingers, but the longest one needs to be pointing right back at him.



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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 5:32:41 PM   
cloudboy


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Status: offline 		This thread has kind of derailed, but the theme was aimed at accountability. You know, how a soldier losing his rifle suffers more shit than a guy like Paul Wolfowitz or Paul Bremer. This tells us something about the nature of American power and the nature of own polticial system. It tells us that our policies are unmoored from reasonable evaluation.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/12/2007 5:33:13 PM >

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 6:13:24 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Just like Colin Powell. He went along with it.


One could see the humiliating anguish Powell was going through when he was giving evidence to the UN about Saddam's WMD. You could see he was praying for Scotty to beam him up. Why such an intelligent man went along with it is beyond me, maybe he thought he could change the policy better from the inside. Whatever, it was obvious in his body language he knew he was peddling bullshit.

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 6:26:19 PM   
minnetar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

This thread has kind of derailed, but the theme was aimed at accountability. You know, how a soldier losing his rifle suffers more shit than a guy like Paul Wolfowitz or Paul Bremer. This tells us something about the nature of American power and the nature of own polticial system. It tells us that our policies are unmoored from reasonable evaluation.


i understand your statement.  Then shouldn't the ultimate accountability land on the commander in chief - the president.  Isn't he basically the one who is ultimately responsible for this?

minnetar

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 7:00:20 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Whatever, it was obvious in his body language he knew he was peddling bullshit.



Can say the same thing about almost any member of AnencephalyBoy's administration when they are forced to speak.

I would suggest that in an administration filled with craven draft-dodging war mongerers, the people like Bremer and Wolfowitz and Powell all knew that to stand up and speak anything negative would mean the end of their careers, if not their lives.

Throw in the fact that I suspect they were all given limited information and believed the lies they were told.

AnencephalyBoy was his father's hatchet man when Bush Sr. was up for reelection.  Read up on the way he and Karl Rove deal with people they are angry with.

Sinergy

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/12/2007 8:40:03 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Just like Colin Powell. He went along with it.


One could see the humiliating anguish Powell was going through when he was giving evidence to the UN about Saddam's WMD. You could see he was praying for Scotty to beam him up. Why such an intelligent man went along with it is beyond me, maybe he thought he could change the policy better from the inside. Whatever, it was obvious in his body language he knew he was peddling bullshit.


thats the way people get when in a puppet government :)


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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/13/2007 8:29:33 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

i understand your statement. Then shouldn't the ultimate accountability land on the commander in chief - the president. Isn't he basically the one who is ultimately responsible for this?

minnetar



I agree. The 2004 election surely did not hold this administration accountible. Frankly, I think the Republican faithful see the Democratic party as the real enemy, more dangerous than Communists or Al Queda. I kind of got something out of this pulitzer prize winning, Jane Smiley quote,

"The election results reflect the decision of the right wing to cultivate and exploit ignorance in the citizenry...I suppose the good news is that 55 million Americans have evaded the ignorance-inducing machine. But 58 millions have not...Ignorance and bloodlust have a long tradition in the United States, especially in the red states...The error that progressives have consistently committed over the years is to underestimate the vitality of ignorance in America...The history of the last four years shows that red state types, above all, do not want to be told what to do - they prefer to be ignorant. As a result, they are virtually unteachable...Listen to what the red state citizens say about themselves, the songs they write, and the sermons they flock to. They know who they are - they are full of original sin and they have a taste for violence."

So, I surely, surely do hold the American voting public accountable too. The voters blew it in 2004.

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/13/2007 9:20:58 AM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		The election was funny ... and I mean ha-ha funny,
 
Most of the ousted Republicans were moderates. Moderate voters, that had voted for them in the past, switched sides. Only a few members of the far right were removed from office. The message sent, was that if you want to be right, you have to be hard right, without compromise.
 
I think the voter, who wanted these two sides to work together, did everything in their power to make sure that won't happen.

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/13/2007 9:27:33 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I agree. The 2004 election surely did not hold this administration accountible. Frankly, I think the Republican faithful see the Democratic party as the real enemy, more dangerous than Communists or Al Queda. I kind of got something out of this pulitzer prize winning, Jane Smiley quote,

"The election results reflect the decision of the right wing to cultivate and exploit ignorance in the citizenry...I suppose the good news is that 55 million Americans have evaded the ignorance-inducing machine. But 58 millions have not...Ignorance and bloodlust have a long tradition in the United States, especially in the red states...The error that progressives have consistently committed over the years is to underestimate the vitality of ignorance in America...The history of the last four years shows that red state types, above all, do not want to be told what to do - they prefer to be ignorant. As a result, they are virtually unteachable...Listen to what the red state citizens say about themselves, the songs they write, and the sermons they flock to. They know who they are - they are full of original sin and they have a taste for violence."

So, I surely, surely do hold the American voting public accountable too. The voters blew it in 2004.


The voters didn't "blow it".  They just voted in a way that you disagree with.

Smiley's comments are exactly inline with "progressive" thinking about people who disagree with them.  To a "progressive", if someone disagrees, it is because their opponents:

1.  Are ignorant (or misled), and/or
2.  Mentally deranged, and/or
3. Evil.

Totally missing is the possibility of an honest disagreement due to differing values, a different culture or a differing opinion based on logical principles.

This is one of the most disturbing things about such "progressives" as Smiley - the inability to see a disagreement as anything other than for base causes.  It is one of the first steps to dehumanizing your opponents, which makes it very easy to believe yourself justified to "make them" see and do things your way when you are in a position of power.

Or to start killing them, or sending them to "re-education" camps "for their own good" or "the common good".

This is an inherent problem with much of the modern left's philosophical base, and one of the main reasons that I'm not generally recognized as a liberal - which I am.

Those "progressives" such as Smiley, I do indeed see as a bigger threat than I do AQ and Communists, for they are deceptive (perhaps unintentionally so) and part of the society and political system I support. They debase and destroy from within, while pretending to the very virtues that they would subvert.

FirmKY


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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/13/2007 10:54:15 AM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
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Status: offline 		Whose administration is running the Concentration Camps for Muslims again?



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/13/2007 11:27:46 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Whose administration is running the Concentration Camps for Muslims again?


Perhaps Egypt.  Perhaps Iran. None other come to mind.

FirmKY


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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/13/2007 2:31:46 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Here's a hint. ONE OF THEM is in Cuba, and it ain't run by the Cubans.

If you disagree, please list EVERY PRISONER, and what CHARGES THEY WERE ARRAIGNED UNDER, and what the disposition of that ARRAIGNMENT was.

TY.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/13/2007 4:45:56 PM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Yes.  The neocons started the war.    Can we get ANY more ignorant of the facts?

Nobody starts a war without Senate approval.  The Senate was almost equally divided amongst Republicans and Democrats.  The resolution to send the US into war passed with a 77-23 vote.  29 of those yay votes came from Democrats.

Any other moronity we care to bring to the table?

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 5/13/2007 4:47:00 PM >

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/13/2007 4:48:10 PM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		Well, I got a list of a dozen fraudulent acts by the Bush Administration calculated to deceive both Congress and The People into going along with their unnecessary invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation WITHOUT UN SANCTION.

Which is funny, as the Administration uses the UN as their justification.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/13/2007 4:51:28 PM   
SirKenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

calculated to deceive both Congress


Well then I guess that makes 29 Democrats a bunch of blundering fools, does it not?

Wow.. Bush is some kind of manipulator..  Both the House and the Senate voted by huge majority to go to war...  That Bush character.  Those poor little Democrats.  They never stood a chance.

Yeah.  Ummm.  Sure. 

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 5/13/2007 4:54:37 PM >

_____________________________

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Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/13/2007 5:36:11 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well, I got a list of a dozen fraudulent acts by the Bush Administration calculated to deceive both Congress and The People into going along with their unnecessary invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation WITHOUT UN SANCTION.

Which is funny, as the Administration uses the UN as their justification.


Technically the war is legal since the Desert Storm never ended. That war was halted because of a cease-fire that Saddam signed. He violated that cease-fire many, many times. Part of the agreement he signed was to allow American aircraft to patrol the no-fly zones. He would frequently shoot missiles at those planes. That alone is in violation of the cease-fire. Not only that but Saddam made an assassination attempt on an American president. Not only is that an official act of war, but is also illegal internationally to assassinate heads of state on diplomatic missions.

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RE: Accountability -- IRAQ WAR - 5/13/2007 5:45:20 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Well then I guess that makes 29 Democrats a bunch of blundering fools, does it not?



Good point.

So those 29 Democrats should all be forced to go sit with the dithering idiots on the Republican side of the line.

Think twice, post once.

Sinergy

p.s.  Guess why I did not vote for Jane Harman.

_____________________________

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

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