losing our reading and writing (Full Version)

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aviinterra -> losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 6:45:42 AM)

    Today there is this article on the homepage of msn.com about penmenship being an outdated skill, primarily cursive writing. A few months ago I saw a similar article trying to presuade the reader that well...reading is just over rated too and we should strive to teach our children only the bare minimum so that they can type and text and fill out forms at work. I have noticed that while a lot of people laugh at this, there is a dramatic decline in these areas already among the younger generations. I know of so few people in my age and younger who will out of sheer pleasure take up a novel writen 200 years ago and actually understand and enjoy it. I could not believe some of the things that are on my younger sister's summer reading lists- Anne Rice, the Da Vinci Code, etc. All best sellers and good authors in their own right- but none of these books will encourage a young reader to seek out a dictionary nor learn the more exquisite forms of the English language. That, and many can argue about the quality of writing in many modern books. Don't believe me that most young people can't write? Go to any teenage forum and try to decipher the "sms-speak" that dominates those posts.
So, in a few decades of this dumbing down, when handwriting is completely replaced by typing or voice recognition, and holding a pen or writing a letter raises eyebrows, will we still argue that we are moving forward, that we are somehow more educated than our ancestors? How will all of this play when it comes to our freedoms, when the future might not even be able to read the Constitution? Will technology in the end turn all of us into uneducated peasants?



sambamanslilgirl -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 7:10:05 AM)

keyboarding has permenantly replace penmanship in schools today.  i remember when i was kid we would get graded for penmanship on our report cards compared to my oldest UMs reports - teachers don't grade it anymore.  i can also remember teachers stressing neatness when doing homework  now they don't care if there are scratch outs of the wrong word(s) used on homework papers. i still practice the art of writing my reviews in long hand on paper before typing and sending it in ...sounds tedious and tiresome however that's how my mother taught me to write research papers.



pahunkboy -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 7:30:33 AM)

as a society, we are mastering and failing the modern world.

we are too dependent on the grid. if the computer is down- oh no now what.

if you were born close to 1963 you have better coping skills then someone born lter say 1982.

reason being is we were taught that it might not work and trouble shooting skills were neeeded.

todays youth isnt inherit with this atitude in life. that is bad news on a large scale.

if the grid comes down say in ten minutes. how long could you function??   the older corwd would be more creative at functioning. and OMG we might have to actually get to know our nieghbors!!



seeksfemslave -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 7:38:05 AM)

I've come to love you madly Pahunk but I think not all threads are for all CM members !

Should I post this?...should I ? closes eyes and presses......enter
which didnt work......tries again and clicks....err err errr GO

see I was so nervous I should have said OK 



domiguy -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 7:48:35 AM)

This shortage of skills is also based on the way we structure and pay for education....Where the "well-off" neighborhoods provide a top notch education via property taxes....And the poor areas...Well the world needs fast food workers and ditch diggers....As we spend zillions on the war in Iraq, I often find myself wondering what actually poses a larger threat to this Country...Terrorism or that we are allowing our children to participate in a school system that is inheritantly flawed and dooms millions to failure....Not the perfect analogy...But it is Monday morning.



juliaoceania -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 7:54:10 AM)

My UM is almost 17

He was graded on penmanship when he was in grammar school, believe me, it was hard because like his mother, he sucks at long hand cursive writing and I had to make him practice.

He is still learning an appreciation for old books, but he enjoys some of them, and I have been known to assign them to him before they became core reading for his lit classes. I do not know if we are the "norm", but my kid loves books, and reads constantly.

I am much older than you, and while I loved books, I saved some of the classics until I was older, they were not assigned to me at all at my high school. I had to discover them on my own, and how very wonderful that was.

I think that every generation bemoans lost skills, and truly some skills are lost, new ones gained, but I think that it is an exaggeration for the most part. Most people by the time they are 10 years out of school do not follow penmanship rules, look at any doctor's hand and you will see what I mean. I finally learned writing skills, had a beautiful hand for many years, and in college my handwriting went to hell from taking notes.

A final thought, in colleges around the USA, there is more of an emphasis on writing and research than has been around for a couple of generations because of the things noted in your OP. So kids are often being excluded from secondary education because their writing skills are awful. When I was at State a few years ago, there were over 2000 students kicked out of school for lacking basic math, reading and writing skills. Perhaps this trend will filter down to the high schools that want to prepare kids for their college years



aviinterra -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 7:55:57 AM)

That is so true. I am was born in the early 80s, but I can survive off the grid as they say. But I owe that to my own instint for self preservation and curiosity. I know how to make bread biscuits that will last me a year and not spoil, I can grow my own veggies and I have been out in the wilds of a foreign country for a whole month with little to go on except my instincts. It was the best time in my life, even though then there were many nights that I dreamed of a warm bed instead of a frosty campfire.
Frankly, I find it disgusting to see my own peers think that they sky is falling when their cable is out for a few hours or the cell is dead. I have a close friend with whom I still write letters, yes- as in paper and pen letters with a stamp on them. It gives new meaning to communication.



seeksfemslave -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 8:01:52 AM)

Talking about old  books, I challenge almost anyone, and especially any young schoolboy to read Silas Marner by George Elliot and not be put off literature for life.
In fact I think I will try and have another "go" at it and see if I can get  anything "out" of it.

Just a fact, I happen to live quite near where G Elliot was based for some time. And Big Bill Shakespeare is not far away either.
Am I licky or cursed ?



aviinterra -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 8:03:17 AM)

Wow- they actually kicked people out for that? Usually it is the math that gets people, and rarely English. I attended three nationaly respected institutions and none of them were up to par as to what was being produced by the students in the 50s and 60s. Even the entry exam questions I found in the libraries from those eras were vastly superior. In general, I have found standarized tests and college applications to be of lower quality. But those are my observations. I commend your family for taking the time to read.

This all reminds me of that Churchill quote, goes something like this- Teach them all latin, and allow the clever ones to learn Greek for a treat. Imagine bringing back latin into today's schools just so that the students have a good basis for all other romance languages. :)



cjenny -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 8:04:26 AM)

Hey now I happen to like George Elliot [sm=book.gif]



velvetears -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 8:19:48 AM)

Teachers have a lot of pressure on them to meet the no child left behind standards.  If their class scores low, and many others as well the school will eventually lose funding - this makes the principal very unhappy and when he/she's unhappy people tend to get fired.  Cursive is taught in 4th grade i  believe and the next grade up doesn't follow through - they can't there is no time. Children have to learn so much in a year - pass so many tests - who has time to worry about how pretty they can write?



pahunkboy -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 8:27:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra

That is so true. I am was born in the early 80s, but I can survive off the grid as they say. But I owe that to my own instint for self preservation and curiosity. I know how to make bread biscuits that will last me a year and not spoil, I can grow my own veggies and I have been out in the wilds of a foreign country for a whole month with little to go on except my instincts. It was the best time in my life, even though then there were many nights that I dreamed of a warm bed instead of a frosty campfire.
Frankly, I find it disgusting to see my own peers think that they sky is falling when their cable is out for a few hours or the cell is dead. I have a close friend with whom I still write letters, yes- as in paper and pen letters with a stamp on them. It gives new meaning to communication.



Excelllent.  It is this very way-tactic that we will need as a species at some point. Being too reliant on the grid is not good.  Keep up the good work.  I dont "dis" the younger generation. I think alot of good can come of the very unique talents they have.

I did not mean to offend anyone if I did. Simply- saying one can never be too preparred.

Terrorism isnt the boogieman.  The boogieman is survival in a world where resources are strained and possibly unavailable.

The generations are cyclical in nature.  Im at teh edge of the baby boom. So all the goodies are picked out...[in a way] yet- the whole field of gerentology will have its guinea pigs.  so that is good for those born later then the baby boom. :-)

Oh BTW- a handwritten letter is like gold these days.  When I cleaned moms attic I saved alot of these for our family treasure chest. I dont know what ever will become of it- but I have stuff on every member of the family from teh last century. My sister is curious. It actually was quite an event cleaning out moms attic.  Her being alive I could ask- mom what was this about.



Dauric -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 8:49:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Teachers have a lot of pressure on them to meet the no child left behind standards.  <snip>


So quoth the bard: "There's the rub." "And thus enterprises of great pith and moment, with this regard turn awry and lose the name of Action."

To teach what you need to to have your students pass a national standards test that is all but useless, or to commit career-suicide and teach students the important topics. That is the question.

$0.02,

Dauric.



farglebargle -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 8:53:33 AM)

quote:

Teachers have a lot of pressure on them to meet the no child left behind standards.


Fucking No Child Left Behind Nazis....

Talk about out-of-control Federal Government....




darkinshadows -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 9:43:09 AM)

It is terribly hard for teachers with larger classes, less time to teach basic language and the inability to discipline unruly students without fear of assult or being sued.
 
Personally, I believe it is up to parents and adult role models to encourage their children - no matter what age - to read.
Many parents don't have the time, admitedly because of social and work pressures - so children are often stuck in front of computers and TV.  There are no trips to the shops to purchase books, new or classics.  Children also just go to bed these days and expected to go to sleep - I make sure that unless they are really tired or doing something constructive, that they have at least and hour to half hour reading or diary 'downtime' - it gives them a chance to read or write and just relax without electrical influences.  I am fortunate, as a parent I get to be at home with my children - this rushed age doesn;t always allow that - but we could try and make time for them.  Even if it is making sure they visit the local library once a week.
 
Peace



Dauric -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 9:52:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
 
Personally, I believe it is up to parents and adult role models to encourage their children - no matter what age - to read.


Agreed!

I think it's the reponsibility of parents to do a lot of things that make up the grand total of "Parenting", and that the entire endeavor of Parenting has become neglected. I read once "(TV) is Vallium on Video for parents who are desprate for something, anything, to make a screaming four year old sit down and shut-up for half an hour."

A lot of parents don't have a lot of time, working multiple jobs just to keep a roof over their heads, so I don't fault them all for it. On the other hand there are cases where a mother apparenty decided that they'd have a kid without budgeting the time and effort it would take to raise them beforehand, and decide to have a quick-fix instead of raising their kids properly. These are the ones that I need to smack around.

$0.02,

Dauric.



farglebargle -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 9:59:42 AM)

Here's what SIXTH GRADERS should be reading:

Contents

The Argonauts Charles Kingsley pg. 16

The Three Fishers Charles Kingsley pg 53
To a Little Girl Charles Kingsley pg 56
Alice Brand Sir Walter Scott pg 57
A Story for Princes Samuel Taylor Coleridge pg 62
The Cherry Snows Clark Ashton Smith pg 64
Horatius at the Bridge Thomas Babington Macaulay pg 65
The Professor of Signs Author Unknown pg 84
The Pilot John B. Gough pg 87
Columbus Joaquin Miller pg 89
Nature’s Song Madison Cawein pg 91
The Cadi’s Decisions Arabian Tale pg 92
The Landing of the Pilgrims Felicia D. Hemans pg 97
In Men Whom Men Condemn Joaquin Miller pg. 99
The Hope of Our Country Henry W. Grady pg 100
The Shepherd’s Psalm The Bible pg 102
The Moonlight Sonata Author Unknown pg 103
The Battle of Blenheim Robert Southey pg 107
The Sergeant and the Child Robert Henry Newell pg 110
Somebody’s Darling Author Unknown pg 113
The Sculptor Boy George W. Doane pg 115
A Good Practical Joke Charles Reade pg 116
Nobility Alice Cary pg 118
The Pied Piper of Hamelin Robert Browning pg 119
Three Gates of Gold Author Unknown pg 129
The Farmer and the Fox James Anthony Froude pg 130
A Song of Autumn Henry Meade Bland pg 132
Lord Ullin’s Daughter Thomas Campbell pg 133
Song To the Oak H. F. Chorley pg 136
Siegfried and the Dragon Katherine F. Boult pg 137
Tubal Cain Charles Mackay pg 144
A Wonderful City Arabella B. Buckley pg 147
Romance of the Swan’s Nest Elizabeth Barrett Browning pg 150
April Rain Robert Loveman pg 153
A Child’s Dream of a Star Charles Dickens pg 154
The Eagle Alfred Tennyson pg 157
Christmas at Bob Cratchit’s Charles Dickens pg 158
Christmas Bells Henry Wadsworth Longfellow pg 162
Christmas Song Phillips Brooks pg 163
Stories of King Arthur Sir Thomas Malory pg 164
The Inchcape Rock Robert Southey pg 172
The Man Worth While Ella Wheeler Wilcox pg 175
The Stone-Cutter Bayard Taylor pg 176
Two Surprises Author Unknown pg 178
The Voyage Caroline Atherton Mason pg 180
In Blossom Time Ina Coolbrith pg 180
The Courtship of Miles Standish Henry Wadsworth Longfellow pg 183
The Skeleton in Armor Henry Wadsworth Longfellow pg 222
Children Henry Wadsworth Longfellow pg 229
The Heart’s Uplift Henry Wadsworth Longfellow pg 231
The Dervise and the Camel Walter Colton pg 232
Three O’Clock in the Morning R. S. Palfrey pg 233
The Little Match Girl Hans Christian Andersen pg 235
The Pebble and the Acorn Hannah F. Gould pg 238
The King of the Golden River; John Ruskin pg 241
Or, The Black Brothers

Paul Revere’s Ride Henry Wadsworth Longfellow pg 265

The Flag Goes By Henry Holcomb Bennett pg 270
Driving Home the Cows Kate Putnam Osgood pg 272
Robin Hood and Little John Thomas Bulfinch pg 274
Robin Hood and King Richard Thomas Bulfinch pg 276
The Shooting Match in London Town Thomas Bulfinch pg 278
Robin Hood John Keats pg 281
Under the Greenwood Tree William Shakespeare pg 284
Daffodils William Wordsworth pg 285
Lucy Gray William Wordsworth pg 286
The Rainbow William Wordsworth pg 289
The Heroine of Nancy Author Unknown pg 290
Abou Ben Adhem Leigh Hunt pg 294
The Glove and the Lions Leigh Hunt pg 295
In March William Wordsworth pg 296
Joseph and His Brethren The Bible pg 297
Parable of the Sower The Bible pg 305
The Apple Blossoms William Wesley Martin pg 306
The Singing Leaves James Russell Lowell pg 308
The Curate and the Mulberry Tree Thomas L. Peacock pg 313
The Story of Bucephalus From Plutarch’s Lives pg 315
Solomon and the Bees John G. Saxe pg 317
The Flower Magician Mary H. Wade pg 320
California John Steven McGroarty pg 327



velvetears -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 10:02:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dauric

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Teachers have a lot of pressure on them to meet the no child left behind standards.  <snip>


So quoth the bard: "There's the rub." "And thus enterprises of great pith and moment, with this regard turn awry and lose the name of Action."

To teach what you need to to have your students pass a national standards test that is all but useless, or to commit career-suicide and teach students the important topics. That is the question.

$0.02,

Dauric.



Teachers HATE teaching to tests, but they want to keep their jobs. With all this pressure is it no wonder penmanship went out the window?



velvetears -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 10:06:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Teachers have a lot of pressure on them to meet the no child left behind standards.


Fucking No Child Left Behind Nazis....

Talk about out-of-control Federal Government....




They are looking to add attendance in this (they already do, but i heard they are going to shoot for 100% attendance) which would mean if the school had too many students absent it would not make the grade - how the hell is that indicative of how well a teacher performs?  All they are going to do is make going into education much less appealing, who wants to go into something where the strikes against you you can't control?



farglebargle -> RE: losing our reading and writing (5/14/2007 10:11:32 AM)

Time to treat NCLB like "Real ID", and tell the Feds to fuck off.



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