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Vendaval -> "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 1:13:44 AM)

"U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report"
 
Tuesday, May 15, 2007, 1:25 a.m., EDT 
 
By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor

" WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Americans get the poorest health care and yet pay the most compared to five other rich countries, according to a report released on Tuesday.

Germany, Britain, Australia and Canada all provide better care for less money, the Commonwealth Fund report found.

"The U.S. health care system ranks last compared with five other nations on measures of quality, access, efficiency, equity, and outcomes," the non-profit group which studies health care issues said in a statement.

Canada rates second worst out of the five overall. Germany scored highest, followed by Britain, Australia and New Zealand.

"The United States is not getting value for the money that is spent on health care," Commonwealth Fund president Karen Davis said in a telephone interview.
The group has consistently found that the United States, the only one of the six nations that does not provide universal health care, scores more poorly than the others on many measures of health care.

Congress, President George W. Bush, many employers and insurers have all agreed in recent months to overhaul the U.S. health care system -- an uncoordinated conglomeration of employer-funded care, private health insurance and government programs.

The current system leaves about 45 million people with no insurance at all, according to U.S. government estimates from 2005, and many studies have shown most of these people do not receive preventive services that not only keep them healthier, but reduce long-term costs. "

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1430711120070515




meatcleaver -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 3:22:33 AM)

This is not news, if the US provided medical care on a similar basis as many western European nations, all Americans would have healthcare and actually pay less! As it is, Americans provide private companies with profits for a bad job. Yes, American healthcare at its best is as good as anyone elses and maybe in areas better but you have to pay excessively high prices to get the best. Americans on the whole are paying for free market ideology, not healthcare.




Dtesmoac -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 4:00:57 AM)

There are few things in the UK I would riot about but after experienceing the US health care system for nearly two years the destruction of the NHS would be one of them.

In the US once they see the insurance card the cash till just keeps going ka-ching for multitudes of tests and arse covering crap. The grand piano in the foyer was not required...etc. The invoices that then keep cominh in and the amount of time wasted determining the actual costs and money owed is ridiculous. The actual treatment and infrastructure may be very good (better than NHS for non life threatening conditions) but it is not good value for money.





farglebargle -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 4:48:08 AM)

Well, we have the Insurance COMPANIES to blame. The waste TRILLIONS of dollars just making Physicians jump through hoops to get properly filed and valid claims paid.

With 3 Trillion Dollars, EVERYONE could get care.

SO, the solution really *IS* a single payer system.

That and a nationwide deployment of VistA EHR systems.





feylin -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 4:49:24 AM)

It is, I believe, all leading to what my company likes to call "Consumerism Insurance."  In a nutshell, this means that non-union employees will be slowly and steadily taking over their own healthcare costs.  The argument is that employer-based health insurance is an antiquated practice from the industrial revolution and insurance cost and responsibility needs to fall back onto the consumer/employee.  (I say non-union because the companies we service that have unions are still managing to arrange for full coverage for their employees.)

This is certainly cutting down on emergency room visits and doctor visits, but it also means that a large number of people will pay into their insurance plan this year but will never see anything paid out as they pay on the deductible through their savings plan or out of their own pocket.  Employer funds will stay in the bank unless someone beats you into a coma.  Even then, your insurance has a limit. As my company likes to say, "A low lifetime maximum benefit is better than no benefit at all." (Yeah, that is funny, but they printed it in a training manual)

The problem with consumerism insurance is that providers are still charging on the old system in that a contracted provider charges $1,000 for something because they know, as a contracted provider, they will receive $250 in the end.  If we, as consumers, are also charged that $1,000 and are not given the same final price of $250, things will get ugly.  That is an exaggeration but a $32 bandage does add up.  Just being with your insurance company will give you an advantage with those contracted providers, but not everything is contracted so I only used the above example to showcase the disparity in prices charged and expected so that when you choose or must use a non-contracted provider -- who still charges the same as his/her peers -- it suddenly becomes a situation where you might have to choose between food and shelter or healthcare. I am sure a lot of people do that now, but I believe this system will make it more widespread.

I wish I could say that this personal responsibility plan is backed up by wellness benefits (preventive care), but I do not see that happening in the insurance plans that are created.  Not in a significant way.  But the company nurse does try to call me at home a lot to see if I am eating right.  Seriously, I want to slap the person that thought up that brainchild. (I did end up changing my phone number on my plan to the company weather emergency line. Those home phone calls were becoming stressful and prozac isn't covered.)

This is just one direction that is being pushed and may not end up being the resolution to America's healthcare problem.  But when I read that a Wal-mart executive was brought on board to brainstorm a solution at the national level, my pessimistic side kicked in.  Its still a long, hard road to something workable.

I do not believe that employer-based insurance is antiquated.  I am on mandatory overtime for months (almost a year), none of the office windows open, the carpets are never vacuumed, the equipment is old and not paticularly healthy as far as posture and ease of motion, the drive to and from work is very dangerous in the winter, and I am surrounded by people who have germ-carrying shorties at home.  If I wasn't at work, I would be SO much healthier. <grins>  Admittedly this is not what it once was:  18-hour days, locked exit doors, no heat and/or a/c, fires, lamplight and being surrounded by toxic materials.  But I am still having trouble with the idea that employers should not be involved with providing decent working conditions, fair pay, and health insurance.  Health insurance included as everything stands right now. I am open to new ideas and would vote for a better solution.  But I do not see a cost of healthcare pay increase coming down the line with "pay your own doctor bills." 

It would be interesting to find out the reason this country does not go with the healthcare models of other countries that seem to be making it work.  I can only imagine that it is because of money.

Best wishes,
Christine




cyberdude611 -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 4:55:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well, we have the Insurance COMPANIES to blame.


And illegal aliens...

Look at all the ERs that are closing because these illegals go in there, get care, and then never pay a dime. That's just like shoplifting, when someone takes something without paying, what happends? Everyone else has to pay more. That's what is happening.

Also in the US we have a problem with an aging population (baby-boomers) who are getting old and living longer than any of the previous generations. This is putting enormous strain on the entire system.




farglebargle -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 4:59:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well, we have the Insurance COMPANIES to blame.


And illegal aliens...

Look at all the ERs that are closing because these illegals go in there, get care, and then never pay a dime. That's just like shoplifting, when someone takes something without paying, what happends? Everyone else has to pay more. That's what is happening.

Also in the US we have a problem with an aging population (baby-boomers) who are getting old and living longer than any of the previous generations. This is putting enormous strain on the entire system.


The INSURANCE COMPANIES are ripping off the system way more than providing services to illegals.

The band-aids are 10 bucks BECAUSE IT COSTS THEM $9.99 to get the PENNY from the insurance company.

I'll re-state that number again.

THREE TRILLION DOLLARS.

Making the insurance companies behave would save everyone so much money, EVERYONE COULD GO TO THE DOCTOR.

EVERYONE.

And if that isn't supporting your Right to LIFE, then what is?






feylin -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 5:04:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well, we have the Insurance COMPANIES to blame. The waste TRILLIONS of dollars just making Physicians jump through hoops to get properly filed and valid claims paid.

With 3 Trillion Dollars, EVERYONE could get care.

SO, the solution really *IS* a single payer system.

That and a nationwide deployment of VistA EHR systems.




Yes, I do deny claims that come in scratched out on letterhead <grins>, but I am more lenient with claims that are filled out properly and that are legible and that are not from a chiro claiming to have done brain surgery to remove a tumor.  There is a lot of waste.  Tons of it.  Quite a bit of it from the mere fact that I cannot just pick up a phone and call a provider and say, "are you sure you performed a vasectomy on a woman?"  Even more from the fact that I cannot take that secondary diagnosis and flip it with the primary one so I could pay the claim.  But, its all going to your deductible anyway.

Best wishes,
Christine




farglebargle -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 5:11:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: feylin

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well, we have the Insurance COMPANIES to blame. The waste TRILLIONS of dollars just making Physicians jump through hoops to get properly filed and valid claims paid.

With 3 Trillion Dollars, EVERYONE could get care.

SO, the solution really *IS* a single payer system.

That and a nationwide deployment of VistA EHR systems.




Yes, I do deny claims that come in scratched out on letterhead <grins>, but I am more lenient with claims that are filled out properly and that are legible and that are not from a chiro claiming to have done brain surgery to remove a tumor. There is a lot of waste. Tons of it. Quite a bit of it from the mere fact that I cannot just pick up a phone and call a provider and say, "are you sure you performed a vasectomy on a woman?" Even more from the fact that I cannot take that secondary diagnosis and flip it with the primary one so I could pay the claim. But, its all going to your deductible anyway.

Best wishes,
Christine



I specified PROPERLY FILED AND VALID, and since the billing backend is integrated, these are all electronically filed, so the "Legibility" issue isn't really a valid objection.

Sure, there are a lot of idiots who can't properly code, but that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing the practice of routinely denying once or twice properly filed, valid claims simply to hold onto the float longer.




meatcleaver -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 5:38:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

And illegal aliens...

Look at all the ERs that are closing because these illegals go in there, get care, and then never pay a dime. That's just like shoplifting, when someone takes something without paying, what happends? Everyone else has to pay more. That's what is happening.

Also in the US we have a problem with an aging population (baby-boomers) who are getting old and living longer than any of the previous generations. This is putting enormous strain on the entire system.


There is nothing you have mentioned that aren't problems in Europe too and Europe copes adequately with illegal immigrants and an ageing population. In reality the problems you mention is just a red herring, it is a structural problem the US has.




Archer -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 5:44:18 AM)

A large part of the Insurance Company not being responsive to the health care reciever, is that the only folks the Insurance companies have to keep happy are the Top level VP's and the Head of HR. So long as HR does not hear complaints from executive level folks and the head of HR is happy, the cances that the company will shift their Insurance provider is very much cost based to the exclussion of anything else.

I still say if you make the Insurance compensation move with the employee, By simply making a dedicated payment for insurance, and have te Employee decide which company that money goes to, and making all Health Insurance deductable not just those provided by employers. The responsiveness of the Insurance companies will inprove. Costs will come down because the Insurance Companies will have to actually compete for individual policies, and they will have to be responsive because they could lose policies to their competition.

The question I have is simple Why is Healthcare the company provides taken out pre tax, while insrance I purchase myself is not? It's a law they need to change.




domiguy -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 6:02:00 AM)

I couldn't find any article that from a reputable source that solely blamed illegals for the problem of emergency room closures....However, there is the problem of the uninsured citizen plus a lack of funding and I'm sure when you add illegals into the mix it creates an extremely unprofitable situation....The problem is that so many uninsured people use the emergency room as taking the place of their personal physician. People utilize these facilities as a place to get a pregnancy test to treat the common cold or flu...We have far too many numbskulls living in this land.




DommeChains -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 6:07:34 AM)

I live with this nightmare daily.  I have seen what I am able to do to provide decent patient care eroded for years as I am forced to do the work of 2,3,4 nurses in order to "save money" and provide more "efficient" care. B.S!  I have seen doctors double & triple booked so as to squeeze the maximum amount of revenue out of every hour.  That means folks if you have a 15 minute follow up appt with your doctor to check on a condition that he/she is also been booked with 1-3 other patients at the same time.  Now do you see why the doc flies in, looks you over for 2-5 minutes, scribbles a prescription and flies out the door again?  No, it is NOT greedy doctors.  It is the managed care companies who basically force the doctors and office staffs to shuffle people through like cattle in order to break even. 

Meanwhile these same companies are building hospitals and clinics like crazy (because capital expansion is a tax write off!) and then can't understand why they can't attract or keep nursing and ancillary staffs.  That is because they expect the nurses (most of whom are over 47 in America) to work 12 hour shifts caring for 8-15 patients with maybe, if they are lucky, 1-2 aides to assist them.  And those same nurses will be fired if they dare to mention to a patient or a family member that they are chronically short staffed or that they can't spend 5 minutes visiting with the patient to reassure them because they are doing the work of 3 other people.

For this we are paying more of our premiums every year "because it will make us more financially conscious and not misuse the health care system".  Again, B.S!   Because of the obscene profits insurance companies, medical holding companies, medical supply companies and Big Pharma make the average adult American making less than $12/hour can not afford even basic health coverage and still have enough left to pay basic living expenses.  Heaven help you if you have a chronic condition that requires close medical monitoring.....much less if you have several.  You will constantly live the fear that your insurance coverage will be reduced or eliminated or denied because you are too sick.

We need to drastically overhaul the delivery of health care and the access to health care in America.  It is obscene that a person can not afford access to basic preventive care,  affordable medications and supplements, the full spectrum of health modalities and quality nursing care when ill or needing monitoring.  It is obscene that health professionals such as nurses are expected to work in such understaffed conditions that patients require a family member with them to ensure basic care.  It is obscene that health practioners such as physicians should have to shuffle through patients as if they are inanimate objects just so they can meet the souless criteria of an insurance company.

Things must change.




KatyLied -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 6:22:48 AM)

There are problems with the health care system, no doubt about that.
People need to be proactive when dealing with doctors and the health care industry.  As a patient I am sure to get the most from my health insurance.  I order my maintenance medications through mail-order, saving money.  I make sure that every referral is within my system so I don't end up with unnecessary health care bills, I confirm that my doctor precertifies testing (if required).  I also learn about my diagnosis, options, and am prepared to ask questions.  Many people walk through the health care system clueless.  The system can work and did for me last year.  I went from testing to diagnosis to surgery within 4 weeks.  Mainly because I was able to take advantage of another patient's cancelled appointment and my family physician (the referring doctor) wrote "ASAP" on some of my diagnostic testing.  It is possible to move to the head of the line when necessary. 

ach, typos




Archer -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 6:29:26 AM)

Opening a basic community clinic that mostly deals with the low income folks and tries mearly to break even would be almost profitable for a Hospital who provides ER services.
There is a local free clinic in Maybleton GA (Atlanta Suburb) and the operators calculated that the cost savings to the local hospital ER was about 90% of the total cost to operate the clinic. Too bad the local hospital cant see past their nose and simply donate a years operating costs to the clinic and thus relieve themselves of so much preasure on their ER for things that a simple free clinic can handle.






Dauric -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 6:30:51 AM)

"Next we speak with people that don't have health insurance, and are genuinely happy not to be burdened with it."
                                         -Comic talk radio station in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
 
I don't have insurance, My employer doesn't even provide it at all. I've been fortunate not to have any serious injuries or illnesses, but in large part I simply have to take care of myself.

Inefficiency, price gouging, bad diagnoses and the inability to admit they were wrong for fear of opening up the possibility of a malpractice...

Is it any wonder that more and more people are looking to alternatives to the established medical profession?

My health-care budget of $0.02,

Dauric.




juliaoceania -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 7:23:04 AM)

I decided the best idea would be to keep myself healthy so I do not need doctors. I am becoming a proponent of holistic healing as I get older too.




pahunkboy -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 7:55:15 AM)

ummm- a former first lady tried like hell to do health care refrom in the 90s. she was shot down fast. every lawyer in the feild was on her azz.

had she been given a chance it might have been fixed by now.....




samboct -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 8:13:55 AM)

Hi Vendaval

Sorry- but this is a restatement of stuff I've been reading for years.  In terms of effective health care delivery- medicare seems to be the most efficient in terms of overhead- more dollars to physicians/nurses- fewer to overhead- but the forms can drive you nuts.  I'm still not sure this is accurate by the way- does it take into account the amount of paperwork needing to be processed by the physician?

Anyhow- from what I can see there is an old problem that never got solved- there is no independent review board of physicians and it's nearly impossible for a physician to lose a license.  What this meant was that the lawyers gained traction with spectacular cases of malpractice that the AMA basically stonewalled- rather than taking the bull by the horns and admitting there was a problem.  Then it got compounded- originally the insurance companies wouldn't fight low dollar malpractice suits because it was cheaper to pay the claim.  Lots of lawyers got drawn in by the scent of money (Laywers, being closely related to sharks, have much keener olfactory senses when it comes to money than the rest of us.) and an industry sprang up.  Finally when the insurance companies decided that they had to fight every malpractice claim- their success rate is pretty good- they generally win 9 out of 10 cases or better- but it's a minimum of $100k to crack the file.  Now the lottery ticket verdicts allowed the insurance companies to charge incredible rates for malpractice premiums so that some specialties such as OB-Gyn are forced out of certain areas of the country.  (Generally linked with a high population of lawyers.)  Consequently we're in a vicious cycle where the insurance companies keep upping their rates to defend against malpractice suits.

On a personal note-my primary care doc called it quits after a number of years.  He was a pretty good doc- did some training of med students from Yale- but he set up a practice where he'd see some folks that were urban poor.  If there would be a lousy outcome, there'd be a lawsuit.  Since the juries tend to sympathize with the victims, there could be some humonguous awards- and again, even if it's one in 10, it's enough to make the insurance companies skittish.  I think he told me that this group of less than a dozen docs was paying upwards of $1M/yr in insurance- and couldn't get it from US companies- had to go offshore.  He couldn't stand it anymore- he was tired of looking at patients that needed good medical care- but were likely to cost him his livelihood.

The current system is crazy- Microsoft claims that over 40% of medical care costs is spent on overhead that has nothing to do with delivering care to the patient.  Also- one big savings that the insurance companies have managed to score is in the field of mental health-there's far too much reliance on drug therapy rather than talk therapy- and there's now finally enough evidence to show that talk therapy can be more effective than drug therapy in numerous cases.  Furthermore- rates of depression are skyrocketing.

It's clear the system is broken- but there isn't the political will to fix it.

Sam




juliaoceania -> RE: "U.S. healthcare expensive, inefficient: report" (5/15/2007 8:17:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

There are few things in the UK I would riot about but after experienceing the US health care system for nearly two years the destruction of the NHS would be one of them.

In the US once they see the insurance card the cash till just keeps going ka-ching for multitudes of tests and arse covering crap. The grand piano in the foyer was not required...etc. The invoices that then keep cominh in and the amount of time wasted determining the actual costs and money owed is ridiculous. The actual treatment and infrastructure may be very good (better than NHS for non life threatening conditions) but it is not good value for money.




I was reading another thread in which another UK citizen was complaining about the lack of coverage under the NHS system. If I were in the UK I would try to correct that, but socialized medicine is something I would treasure personally. I would not begin to argue the point with people from the UK that do not like their system, but being in a private pay system leads to many premature deaths because of lack of preventative care. I have experienced it in my own family firsthand




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