Start, stop and maybe start again??

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ICGsteve -> Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 2:25:40 PM)
My wife is a child sexual abuse survivor and she does not trust easily, tends to be overly willful and proud but wants to become less so, and often feels the need to control her surroundings. She also has always acted like she believes relationships should be D/s, and all of her peak sexual experiences are of being used hard, shown in public, and bound. She after many years of being with me, increasingly playing BDSM games in and out of the bedroom, she made the jump into being willing to go M/s but freaked after a few months when she began to feel like she was losing control of who she is (her explanation). During the weeks she was a slave she was more happy and contented then she has been at any other time I have been with her. Now she says that we can still play BDSM games but that she is not a slave, but then to she also is now bored to tears with sex and unhappy about it ( and I might add often in a generally bitchy mood). To complicate matters she also says that now that she has some idea of how far I wanted to go with M/s that she as problems trusting me again, after we had solved that problem for many years. I think that she wants and needs to explore submissiveness, but is scared, that she likely will after awhile want to try again. Even though we only go as far as she has consented to the fact that I want to go much further than she is currently able to go both scares her (because she knows that I will at some point want to go there) and makes her feel like she is not "good enough". I know that I did not calm her fears enough, but her fear level was pretty high so I am not sure I could have. I think I know her well, but does anything jump that indicates that I am wrong about her likely coming around again for another try?

charismagirrl -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 2:33:46 PM)
Just a suggestion go check out this site http://www.enslavement.org.uk and read the section about reactance. That sounds like maybe she is having problems with that..

Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 2:46:40 PM)
I'm a survivor of child sexual abuse. I too have serious needs to control my surroundings. Your wife will likely have some issues over her abuse for most of her life, I am sure you are aware of this. However, if she enjoyed her experiences with you and with BDSM she is likely going to want to pursue it further. What might be happening, is she may be deciding she doesn't want to submit, as it may remind her of her loss of control when she was a child (she had no choice in that situation...that 'no control' is a hard thing for a kid, and even harder for a survivor to deal with). She might decide she wants to try her hand at dominance. She could be afraid of your reaction to her desires of dominance over submission, fearing you'd reject her, divorce her, no longer love her, etc. Then again, maybe she enjoyed the submission too much and THAT scared her. Maybe she felt as if since she enjoyed submission that perhaps a part of her enjoyed the child abuse...that is something that is far worse to think about than submission in of itself. The key here is to find out the root of the problem. Try to get her to open up to you and share why she backed out. If you can get her to give you an answer that isn't superficial you might be able to discover her real reasons. Would you be willing to allow her to experiment with her own dominance? Would you still love her if she never submitted to you again? Would you be willing to protect her if she does submit to you? You do not need to answer these questions for me, instead, they may be questions she has and you should discuss them with her.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 2:47:42 PM)
quote: tends to be overly willful and proud define willful and proud? quote: She also has always acted like she believes relationships should be D/s, and all of her peak sexual experiences are of being used hard, shown in public, and bound. She after many years of being with me, increasingly playing BDSM games in and out of the bedroom How can it be ALWAYS and then only after many years? Define "acted like" quote: she made the jump into being willing to go M/s but freaked after a few months when she began to feel like she was losing control of who she is (her explanation). During the weeks she was a slave she was more happy and contented then she has been at any other time I have been with her Being terrified of getting what we want is all too common, what was going on that made her feel she was losing control of who she was? quote: To complicate matters she also says that now that she has some idea of how far I wanted to go with M/s that she as problems trusting me again, after we had solved that problem for many years. Woman opens up to man, man shows her he wants to go farther than she is willing/thinks she will go and is now afraid he will leave her AND where you want to take her is a place where she has to let go of the control that gives her security perhaps. quote: I know that I did not calm her fears enough, but her fear level was pretty high so I am not sure I could have. This is the money quote. I am not saying a mortal could calm her fears but THIS is key. She doesn't feel safe (again, it is her job as much as yours) and until she does, she isn't going to let go. quote: the fact that I want to go much further than she is currently able to go both scares her (because she knows that I will at some point want to go there) and makes her feel like she is not "good enough". I know that I did not calm her fears enough, but her fear level was pretty high so I am not sure I could have. I think I know her well, but does anything jump that indicates that I am wrong about her likely coming around again for another try? Read this and put yourself in the place of a scared little girl and it reads "I need this and if she can't I will leave". I am NOT saying that is what you mean but based on her reactions I think it is a fair bet that is what she is hearing.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 2:50:28 PM)
Has she ever actually had some good long term therapy with someone? Going by herself or with you as a couple might be perfect for this. Make sure it's someone you feel good about. Your issue here is to "be ok" Really, IMO she just wants to be accepted. Forget the pressure of "sub vs slave" forget the need to trust or prove anything. When she starts to have a meltdown, stop everything and just start watching tv, or go out to dinner. Move away from the emotional source at the moment. Let everyone take a breath. Then gently start to remind her of how good and positive and secure her life is. (Presuming that job/house/life is, in fact, secure) You have to say "It's ok" to her. It's ok that she's freaking out, it's ok that she's going back and forth, it's ok that she has no clue how to keep from swinging around. She DOES need to try and find a balance over time with less frequent freak outs, but right now- it's ok. Oh, and lock her up every night on the floor for at least a month preceded and followed by a 5 minute intense snuggle session.

ICGsteve -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 2:57:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: charismagirrl Just a suggestion go check out this site http://www.enslavement.org.uk and read the section about reactance. That sounds like maybe she is having problems with that.. I did not have a name for it but reactance is it. The critical moment was when she read in a book that some slaves have to ask to go to the bathroom, she asked me about it and I said that I might want to do that sort of thing someday, though it was not a big deal to me. I never understood why she was fixated on the bathroom permission thing because I never cared much about it, but now it makes sense. Thanks for that

robertolapiedra -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 4:41:20 PM)
Hello ICGsteve. I have a what one may call a custom fitted M/s 24/7 relationship. After the baby, baby blues, libido problems (life!) it is not the same as before, it is different. The evolution is done two ways: Baby stepping to the 'confort zone' and 'stop and go'. There are two instances for my wife : Sexslaving (practically no limits) and day to day 'domestic' slaving. She had problems (still does on occasion) with the day to day stuff. Most of the ajustments (babystepping) have been in the day to day D/s relationship. The stop and go was just a safety feature, like a red button on a big mean industrial machine. When everything goes to dramaland I pull the plug (or push red button) as I don't have any tolerance for that kind of topping shit. Naturally she comes back with the sexslaving to make everything happy but the plug is pulled and I don't go for 'blackwidowing' bullshit either, as it pisses me off even more. It takes two to tango, either you do or you don't. You have to 'reset thing's once in a while and if you are for real, it will be BETTER for the both of you afterwards. If you are just feeding off each other and mindfucking for control it is going stop by itself anyway and you two will be at lost to find the restart button. I think it is break time, go somewhere for a weekend and try to talk about what the hell you two want. After that? Here we goooooooooo! RL. PS: Edit forgot something! My wife had a similar childhood with similar problems. But she is not a 44 year old child and has a handle on this.

ICGsteve -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 4:56:39 PM)
Scary how much that sounds like my life.

robertolapiedra -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 4:58:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ICGsteve Scary how much that sounds like my life. You bet your ass it's scary! RL

ICGsteve -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 5:01:29 PM)
Because all you can do is trust the God's to make her want to come back for more, right?

robertolapiedra -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 5:27:15 PM)
Right. She must want to submit. But she can't do that if she is topping (a lot of times she does not 'know' she is topping !). For synergy one submits the other dominates, the rest is just 'details' but that is where the 'devil' is. The 'Gods' want D/s and they don't care in what style (or precepts advertised and sold by the 'slickies'). RL.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 6:12:49 PM)
While I certainly agree that most subs don't recognize they are actually allowing their insecurities to control the situation, I think slapping the label that they are unconsciously trying to top the situation will only make things worse. They are acting out- and not altogether unreasonable. Slapping a label and saying "Bad sub" will do nothing to actually deal with the core issues. It will only get her to try and cover them up and act like they don't exist out of fear of losing what security remains.

ICGsteve -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 6:32:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross While I certainly agree that most subs don't recognize they are actually allowing their insecurities to control the situation, I think slapping the label that they are unconsciously trying to top the situation will only make things worse. They are acting out- and not altogether unreasonable. Slapping a label and saying "Bad sub" will do nothing to actually deal with the core issues. It will only get her to try and cover them up and act like they don't exist out of fear of losing what security remains. I can't follow you there. When she pulls out every manipuative trick she knows to get control she is not "acting out" she is attempting to top. Every time I have allowed her to do it I have been sorry. I got a little bit of smarts, I don't usually fall for it anymore.

robertolapiedra -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 6:33:26 PM)
Hello LuckyAlbatross. When I say topping, I agree with the wikipedia definition wich defines it as ''bad practice in the BDSM community''. No mention of a ''Bad sub'' but reference to controlling covertly the dominant. Not the situation. Labels are for labelers. RL.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 7:18:40 PM)
WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 You are so terrified she is topping from the bottom that you can't reach out a hand to a woman you have lived with for 23 years and you think SHE is fucked up? I pity that poor girl. STOP FUCKING BLAMING EACH OTHER!!!!!!!!!!! Sit down with her as equals and make it clear to her that NOTHING is more important to you than she is and that you will work through everything TOGETHER. Pull your head out of your ass and realize you have NOT made this woman feel safe (admittedly not an easy job and one she has lots to do with) and that until you can help her get to a safe place, you are NEVER going to make any of this BDSM crap work PERIOD. Make her PART of the process, get her to OWN her actions and give her some control and she will surrender it to you in the long run. The harder you try and take it from her the fiercer she is going to cling to it. Work on the basics of your relationship together, make her responsible for helping you to get her to a better place emotionally. That isn't going to be fast, if as many suggested, you haven't had therapy, then start interviewing therapists and after 20 or 30 you will find one who isn't an idiot and can help you two work through this. You are obviously a bright caring guy and you guys have managed to hang together for 23 years, a feat I certainly can't match and something the two of you should be proud of. Build on that, build a safe relationship and THEN explore. I realize none of this is what you want to hear but it comes from my heart to yours.

ICGsteve -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 7:31:01 PM)
SHe is caught between the drive to generate her safe place by controlling me, and her need to be taken. I allowed her to do her "safe place" thing until she lost so much respect for me that she filed divorce papers, since then I have steadily be taking her more in hand. Nothing that I know about her indicates that she wants to be an equal, to be a collaborator. She wants her man to be stronger than her, she can't trust herself to be real and full throttle with any man who is not strong enough to handle her. Obviously this runs afoul of the BDSM concept of consent.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 7:44:14 PM)
Steve, I love how the details come dribbleing out but you are so screwed. The fantasy is that we "take" our women but we don't. We stand there like the rock of gibralter and let their energy wash over us without affecting us. They have a choice, their way or ours, only our choice leads to D/s. Taking someone is hot, I LOVE doing it but it isn't how you make a relationship work. The day she feels shitty, you are trying to take too much and are an asshole, the days she wants more and you are tired, you are not going to be domly enough. Let me guess, your relationship feels like it is a roller coaster ride? Been there, done that. SHE has to have the power to make her own choices, see you as a good man worthy of her submission and surrender on whatever level works for both of you. As long as she wants you to take her submission from her she is living in a fantasy. BitaTrouble has written about how that change came about for her. THAT is what makes it work in the long term. I am curious what others who have been in relationships longer than a few years have to say about my statement.

ICGsteve -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 7:58:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Steve, The day she feels shitty, you are trying to take too much and are an asshole, the days she wants more and you are tired, you are not going to be domly enough. Let me guess, your relationship feels like it is a roller coaster ride? Been there, done that. . Which is why it has to be M/s. Problem is this makes the barrier of her fears that much higher. Just as she is very fearful of submission so is she very drawn towards it, but with her it has to be all the way or not at all. Anything less than full bore M/s she will constantly try to manipulate her way out of it, and we both know it.

robertolapiedra -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 8:02:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ICGsteve SHe is caught between the drive to generate her safe place by controlling me, and her need to be taken. I allowed her to do her "safe place" thing until she lost so much respect for me that she filed divorce papers, since then I have steadily be taking her more in hand. Nothing that I know about her indicates that she wants to be an equal, to be a collaborator. She wants her man to be stronger than her, she can't trust herself to be real and full throttle with any man who is not strong enough to handle her. Obviously this runs afoul of the BDSM concept of consent. Basics Steve! Basics! Yes there are two types of submissives as for starting points of synergy. One submits in order to be dominated the other wants to be dominated in order to submit. One is not recommended for obvious reasons, but in a long term relationship one may do 'that' risquier one. Is it I'm stopping this and we will talk or am I going to exert dominance and 'push' her to the safe side? I always favor 'leading' to 'pushing' and if I can't lead I stop everything. I choose the risk I am willing to take. If you choose to stop it, you still will catch some flack. If you are forceful you risk the ''flee or fight response'' or worse, convulsion between the two. This is major league shit in long term D/s. If you want my advice and if you want to regain your leadership role, stop the D/s and alleviate fear. You do what is necessary to alleviate fear in a context that cannot feed that fire. Maybe counseling , maybe a trip to somewhere you 'both' would like, try to do wathever will stop the control dynamic. You are trying to repair an airplane in midair, better to land the sucker. Good luck. RL

robertolapiedra -> RE: Start, stop and maybe start again?? (5/15/2007 8:18:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael SHE has to have the power to make her own choices, see you as a good man worthy of her submission and surrender on whatever level works for both of you. As long as she wants you to take her submission from her she is living in a fantasy. BitaTrouble has written about how that change came about for her. THAT is what makes it work in the long term. I am curious what others who have been in relationships longer than a few years have to say about my statement. Ditto that (I got stiches). One hypothesis (not from me) states that 'provocation' to make the dominant forceful and 'dominate', overpower into submission is a ruse to maintain the power 'prerogative' in the hands of the sub. You may get sexual submission this way but not total submission in the D/s flavour. Simply, in the mind (unconscious?) of the sub there is no submission until she submits of her own free will. If forced she can start as many cycles as she wants because she has the 'on and off switch' hence the roller coaster effect. I hope he gets it. RL

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