RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (Full Version)

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RavenMuse -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 3:31:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion
I believe that far too much is being assumed about the vague post in order to camouflage a sentiment of disgust


Whilst *I* believe some people CHOOSE to take some of the replies at less than face value when it is stated they have no problem with TS but a BIG problem with lies, because some folks WANT to paint everyone who disagrees with them as anti-TS.



LadyEllen -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 4:14:25 AM)

All I can say RavenMuse, is that my experience to date tells me that the whole deceit thing provides a convenient excuse whereby one does not have to say what one truly feels.

It is rare enough to find someone even here who truly knows what a TS is, especially by comparison to CD/TV etc.  In the general population, it is even more rare to find anyone who knows much above "trannie" and accompanying jokes.

Given that, it becomes even more rare to find someone who truly has no problem with TS people in a social setting - at the pub, in the workplace, in one's home etc.

And from there, to find someone who truly has no problem with the idea of a TS person being their sexual / romantic partner is akin to finding hens' teeth.

This is why I draw my conclusion.

On top of that, my experience (and I repeat myself here) is that I can attract dozens of messages on the other side from guys, not one of whom, in nearly a year and after hundreds of such messages, fits into the criteria of having no problem with it from a relationship point of view. In fact, they run for the hills.

For me to see here then, of how many guys "dont have a problem" with a TS but do have a problem with "her deceit", reads to me as total rubbish, and as a means of discarding her without admitting to the real reason.

I would love to be proven wrong, but by any measure of statistical significance, I feel that all the approaches I have had tell a tale that supports my view. Thank goodness for plain ole masochistic fetish types who dont particularly care who's thrashing them.....

E



Icarius -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 5:26:25 AM)

As others have said, it does bring up major trust issues. I, as well, expect utter and complete honesty. However, I do also plan on having children one day, and that, as well, would likely lead to me not being interested in such a submissive.



AquaticSub -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 5:31:25 AM)

~Fast Reply~

I don't tell people I've got clinical depression on a first date. I don't tell people I used to cut myself on a first date. What, you want all the juicy stuff upfront? No way... you've at least got to give me oral first. In fact, I don't spill that stuff until we are at the cuddly, been dating for a few months, you bought my favorite kind of candy cause you saw it and thought of me time and I'm falling all over myself to give you back rubs period.

Why? Because if I don't think you are going to be around for a reasonable length of time you don't need to know.

Seriously, this isn't a "truth" to uncover or some big lie. It's a part of their past that doesn't need to be printed on an index card and handed out to every single person they meet so that nobody feels "deceived". Long as they have lady parts they are a woman in all senses of the word. So they didn't tell you right away, sucks for you, oh well, blah blah.

I still don't think it's a lie.



Wildfleurs -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 5:56:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

I guess it is pointless to continue... but I have to say one final time.... if any of you have an aversion to being involved with a TS then why not simply make this a known fact about yourself? Why does it have to be they tell you & because they don't within a period of time you feel they should then they are deceitful liers.

People have no issue with telling others that they have no desire to be involved in a same sex relationship or they prefer to only be in a same sex relationship.... people really don't have an issue with telling folk they do not wish to be involved in an interracial relationship.... why is it so difficult to be upfront with people & say... I prefer to not involve myself with a TS?



Because to some people, saying that they are heterosexual and want a woman means precisely that they don't want a TS (yes I know its a harsh statement to make, but you did ask).

C~

Edited to add: in fact, specifically on collarme there is a different and distinct category for Trans, both in the "seeking" category as well as the "gender" category.  So if someone were interested in Trans, they would have the option to be absolutely clear on being interested in that versus a particular gender.



MissOchistic -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 6:05:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

~Fast Reply~

I don't tell people I've got clinical depression on a first date. I don't tell people I used to cut myself on a first date. What, you want all the juicy stuff upfront? No way... you've at least got to give me oral first. In fact, I don't spill that stuff until we are at the cuddly, been dating for a few months, you bought my favorite kind of candy cause you saw it and thought of me time and I'm falling all over myself to give you back rubs period.

Why? Because if I don't think you are going to be around for a reasonable length of time you don't need to know.

Seriously, this isn't a "truth" to uncover or some big lie. It's a part of their past that doesn't need to be printed on an index card and handed out to every single person they meet so that nobody feels "deceived". Long as they have lady parts they are a woman in all senses of the word. So they didn't tell you right away, sucks for you, oh well, blah blah.

I still don't think it's a lie.


That point put it in a better perspective for me. Right up front with my logic, I can see it as a lie and hiding it, because I'm so detached for this girl in particular, and because I really wouldn't care either way and have never had the experience of meeting someone who hid it or was uncomfortable with themselves.

But thinking about it, while it may still be a lie, it's rather understandable. I have never told someone about my cutting until I was very intimate with them, usually after many, many months (unless they found out themselves). While gender and sexuality issues may be easy to disclose for me, being so comfortable, if I put her feelings on par with mine about cutting....I can understand totally. And I would also think it absurd for them to think I lied to them or was decietful, even though my depression and emotions are every bit as much a part of me as my sexuality.

That said, I would understand if they ran for the hills and not make them out to be at fault.





Wildfleurs -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 6:09:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I don't tell people I've got clinical depression on a first date. I don't tell people I used to cut myself on a first date. What, you want all the juicy stuff upfront? No way... you've at least got to give me oral first. In fact, I don't spill that stuff until we are at the cuddly, been dating for a few months, you bought my favorite kind of candy cause you saw it and thought of me time and I'm falling all over myself to give you back rubs period.



Ummmm...I hate to point this out but I haven't gotten oral or a backrub but now I (and everyone on the internet) knows....



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 6:11:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
The problem though, is that whenever one reveals the background, the other takes it as deception.
Bullshit! I'd rather be told as the relationship progresses to something tangible that the other person was once of the opposite sex then to "find out" by accident later on when it actually would be hurtful. 

quote:

If one reveals at the start, at the chatting up stage, then the guy feels deceived.
Bullshit!

quote:

If one reveals during initial dating, the guy feels deceived.
Bullshit!

quote:

If one reveals when its become a LTR, the guy feels deceived.
Bullshit!

quote:

This isnt theory. This is my experience. Well, the first part anyway as I'm far too bleedin' honest to get any further.
This may have been your experience, and for that it is regretful, but to try and apply it to all men is the biggest load of steaming shit I've seen so far. Especially since you, by your own admission, haven't experienced the the second and third generalization you stated.



RavenMuse -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 6:18:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

All I can say RavenMuse, is that my experience to date tells me that the whole deceit thing provides a convenient excuse whereby one does not have to say what one truly feels.

It is rare enough to find someone even here who truly knows what a TS is, especially by comparison to CD/TV etc.  In the general population, it is even more rare to find anyone who knows much above "trannie" and accompanying jokes.

Given that, it becomes even more rare to find someone who truly has no problem with TS people in a social setting - at the pub, in the workplace, in one's home etc.

And from there, to find someone who truly has no problem with the idea of a TS person being their sexual / romantic partner is akin to finding hens' teeth.

This is why I draw my conclusion.


Other people have diffrent experiences and when it is a question about how THEY would react then it is THEIR experiences that are applicable, not yours. Unless you WANT to try calling them a liar?

I socialise quite regularly with both TS/TG and TV's here on the London scene, so am well aware of the diffrences and don't have a problem with it. And whilst I haven't found a TS so far with whom that spark has developed, I've certainly no problem with the idea.

I DO however have big problems with ANYONE being decieteful with Me and in the way the OP was worded. "Close meaningful relationship"... the only way that could happen without the matter being raised DOES involve lies on her part. If I was interested in her as a person it isn't the TS part that would be a problem, it is the fact that she'd chosen to lie to Me that would make her incompatable!





MstrssPassion -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 7:09:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

Edited to add: in fact, specifically on collarme there is a different and distinct category for Trans, both in the "seeking" category as well as the "gender" category.  So if someone were interested in Trans, they would have the option to be absolutely clear on being interested in that versus a particular gender.



But again you are placing the transsexual in the place of being an outsider to what is a perceived acceptable status... you aren't a he & you aren't a she... you are one of them... & because you are one of them you owe us an explaination of your entire history so that we know beforehand that you are not one of us because everyone knows that if we didn't peg you to be one of those then you have deceived us



Wildfleurs -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 7:29:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

Edited to add: in fact, specifically on collarme there is a different and distinct category for Trans, both in the "seeking" category as well as the "gender" category.  So if someone were interested in Trans, they would have the option to be absolutely clear on being interested in that versus a particular gender.



But again you are placing the transsexual in the place of being an outsider to what is a perceived acceptable status... you aren't a he & you aren't a she... you are one of them... & because you are one of them you owe us an explaination of your entire history so that we know beforehand that you are not one of us because everyone knows that if we didn't peg you to be one of those then you have deceived us



I left what was quoted because I literally think that you didn't read what I said.  COLLARME places those categories.  I don't work for collarme, volunteer for collarme, nor am I affiliated with collarme.  If you have a problem with their categories contact collarme.

The fact remains, that if someone is interested in a Trans individual then they can check off that category.

If they check off woman, then they are interested in women.  If they check off women and trans then they are interested in both.  Its very clear cut and thus they are being, in your words, "upfront and honest" about precisely what they want.

C~



AquaticSub -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 7:39:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I don't tell people I've got clinical depression on a first date. I don't tell people I used to cut myself on a first date. What, you want all the juicy stuff upfront? No way... you've at least got to give me oral first. In fact, I don't spill that stuff until we are at the cuddly, been dating for a few months, you bought my favorite kind of candy cause you saw it and thought of me time and I'm falling all over myself to give you back rubs period.



Ummmm...I hate to point this out but I haven't gotten oral or a backrub but now I (and everyone on the internet) knows....



Well... duh...

In fact everyone on the internet knows you, me and everyone here is into BDSM, D/s, etc. Doesn't mean we advertise the fact to everyone we encounter in the real world.



Masque66 -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/22/2007 11:09:51 PM)

I've considered this, and if I cared about her before, I would still care again.  But I couldn't pretend that nothing had changed.  At the very least any plans for family would have to be drastically altered.  I would hope that she would reveal the truth before things got to serious so I could make a serious decision about it.  Some people can have a relationship with a trans but some simply can't.  It hurts, I know, but it's reality.



CuriousLord -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/23/2007 1:40:54 AM)

So you carry a personal interest in the topic, or just curious?

I'd dump him/her/it/himerit/whatever.  The past wouldn't be a problem I'd even consider at first.  It'd be over the having-been-deceived-and-lied-to thing.



Evlgryn -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/24/2007 12:14:21 AM)

My slave wildfleurs has run a local BDSM munch for nearly a decade, and one of the incidents that occured there hardened our opinions on the issue of being upfront on gender issues.  She has had a gender-identified-female, make a date online to meet at the munch. It happened more than once. I can't for the life of me figure how this person thought it was going to work out well for their excited date to arrive expecting to meet a hot chick and discover they had been corresponding with a middle aged man.  No cross dressing, no hormones, no gender reassignment, just a guy. If it walks likes a duck quacks like a duck and pees like a duck, it is a fukkin duck.

Fortunately we have a mellow crowd so nobody ever took out their frustration with their knuckles. But not all doms are that secure, and finding you have been discussing doing intimate things to someone who turns out to be your own gender,  is going to be distressing for most of us.


It is part of the human condition to ache to be accepted for things your heart tells you in no uncertain terms to be true. On a  human level I feel for the people who have to wrestle with this issue daily. I wish I could draw on some untapped well of wisdom and advise them the perfect moment to communicate this intimately personal informatioin. Unfortunately  I am still trying to figure out why the guy I see in the mirror has silver hair and is so much portlier than me.  But if I have to hazard a  guess, the moment for candor comes hours or better days before the moment when panties get pulled down, for the sake of all concerned.

Evlgryn




LadyEllen -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/24/2007 3:17:37 AM)

Aquatic - good analogy. Naturally though, given the logic here, not revealing a full psychological history comprises deceit and must lead to you being dumped immediately I assume?

Wildfleurs - you are quite correct to point out that there is a "trans" category. I however, refuse to use it, though I do mention my status in my profile for anyone interested (and interesting) enough to read it, rather than just look at the pics (and there are plenty in the latter category). Why do I not use that category? Several reasons - I believe that category is totally unsuitable for me, it adds to the general confusion in the minds of the majority that there is no difference between the likes of me and a guy whose fetish happens to be dressing in female attire, and perhaps above all, use of that category tends to invite the worst kind of attention from the creepiest kind of people. I dont go round in real life advertising my genetic characteristics, as that would have the exact same effect (as well as likely get me killed), so I dont here either. One also has to bear in mind all the threads we have here about how important getting to know someone is, how much more relevant character and personality is than what one looks like - surely on that same basis then, it shouldnt matter one jot what my background is?

Except of course, that my background clearly matters a great deal. And I understand that, which is why I point it out to those who mail me, and in so doing prove my point by their reaction.

Mr D and RavenMuse - OK, I will take you at your word that you truly have no problem with a TS partner for a proper relationship - I put it in those terms as there are plenty of guys around who would fuck me just to see what its like, but would never take it any further than that, regardless of feelings for me. Why? Because of what they perceive others would think of them if they did - that being, that a guy who is with a TS must be with her because he cant do any better, and/or he is probably gay. Such societal pressure would require a very strong character indeed for such a relationship to survive. Such strong characters are very rare, and perhaps by your statements you demonstrate such character.

E




Areflectionofyou -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/24/2007 4:33:18 AM)

i think a lie is a lie. Its like the same as saying you are single and  in fact you are married. If you are honest from the beginning its better. If you feel you need to lie to have a relationship with that person , they probably aren't a good fit anyways.



RavenMuse -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/24/2007 5:18:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Mr D and RavenMuse - OK, I will take you at your word that you truly have no problem with a TS partner for a proper relationship - I put it in those terms as there are plenty of guys around who would fuck me just to see what its like, but would never take it any further than that, regardless of feelings for me. Why? Because of what they perceive others would think of them if they did - that being, that a guy who is with a TS must be with her because he cant do any better, and/or he is probably gay. Such societal pressure would require a very strong character indeed for such a relationship to survive. Such strong characters are very rare, and perhaps by your statements you demonstrate such character.


I really don't give a monkeys what society thinks of Me or Mine. All I require of society is to keep out of My way. Friends accept Me for who I am, anyone else can kiss My hairy backside!

A person is a person. Full stop. If I am attracted to who she is NOW then what she used to be wouldn't effect that... the problem being, the LIE would change who I was dealing with from an honest person, to a dishonest one and THAT is a big issue, total dealbreaker.

As for the probably gay bit LOL would they think that about someone with a butch natural born female as a partner? I have two friends on the scene here, she used to be trapped in a male body.... he is most certainly straight.... and they are wonderfully happy together.



Donnalee -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/24/2007 7:29:30 AM)

I think this is one of those issues where all the theories in the world change when its happening to you in the "here and now".   Could you really look the person you love in the eye and say "To the curb!"?  Probably just as many people  could do that as couldn't.  Would you instantly embrace them 'no matter what'?  Probably unreal also.  In real life, real people adapt and adjust and accept as many things as they don't.  It's a great question to explore.

The hook for me would be in that the relationship is already established...my feelings are there...now what?  Would the person who revealed the truth be able to handle my process of adjustment?  Surely there would be one, and it wouldn't be over in a day. That kind of situation or anything close to it would set a person thinking and exploring for a long time.  I think that for me, the relationship would have to be strong enough and the sex good enough to get me over the shock of dealing with something I haven't had first-person experience with.  And I'd have to be in a good time of life to be willing to take it on.

I've enjoyed the discourse on the topic.



Suleiman -> RE: Discovering the truth about your female sub. (5/26/2007 1:11:39 PM)

So *That's* why she only cums when I massage her prostate!



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