"Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/13/2005 9:40:41 AM)

Here you go, this is the type of publicity that our lifestyle usually gets. After four years a couple of woman decided to "safe-word" to the police. Doubt the true story will ever come out.

From the story...
quote:

Glenn Marcus, 52, is facing life in prison if convicted of the heinous acts he allegedly inflicted upon a woman when she tried to escape his sick world.

His lawyer Millie Whalen argued there is nothing illegal about a "voluntary sadomasochistic relationship," and questioned why it took four years for the woman, who has not been identified, to step forward.

The alleged crimes occurred between 1997 and 2001 when at least two women agreed to enter into a "dominance and submission relationship" with Marcus in which he played the role of "master" and the women his "slaves," according to the affidavit.


Entire Article: http://nydailynews.com/front/story/309203p-264454c.html



onceburned -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/13/2005 9:59:16 AM)

The Newsday article is a bit more informative and less sensationalistic. I guess she did have job outside the house.



mistoferin -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/13/2005 4:49:04 PM)

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/43937.htm

And this one is even more sensational.



MsSilvie -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/14/2005 7:25:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Here you go, this is the type of publicity that our lifestyle usually gets. After four years a couple of woman decided to "safe-word" to the police. Doubt the true story will ever come out.


Probably all of the story never will come out. But the amount of time it took to report isn't probably THAT unusual. Traumatic situations. abusive relationships... they effect people in ways that you may not expect. It's simple to say, "If that was me, I wouldn't have let that happen!" And, if it were you, the situation probably never would have gotten to that point. But this wasn't you in that situation.

It doesn't surprise me a bit that abusive people are drawn toward bdsm. What better way to excuse your bad behavior than by claiming that the other person wanted it? It's unfortunate that the media reports this in such a way that it reflects badly on everyone in the lifestyle. But it's understandable. The majority of people who practice some form of bdsm are responsible and ethical. The ones that really stand out and get the attention are the ones who aren't ethical.

Sad, really.



Mercnbeth -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/15/2005 6:39:49 AM)

And for your Sunday reading pleasure...

Guess this is the story du jour.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/309636p-264910c.html



mistoferin -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/15/2005 8:28:58 AM)

I have a post written on another board from a woman who is in a national organization that helps submissives who might be in trouble. This woman had interacted personally with the slave in question. It is a very interesting read and states that the slave in this case had been on the website in question for years and also in a specific aol chat room proclaiming her love and devotion to her Master. Even when others tried to step in because they felt her Master was a bit too extreme and offered her help and protection, apparently she her answer was that everything was entirely consentual and she had complete trust and was "supremely happy as his slave". Problems did not arise until slave number 2 came on board, a woman who was more extreme and didn't have to work as hard at her submission. Apparently all of this was played out very publicly and I would think that all of those records, postings and conversations could be subpeonaed.



Padriag -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/15/2005 5:21:41 PM)

If that's true Erin, then it sounds as if its a case of a "woman scorned" and venting in a very unethical way. I think its wrong his identity has been released while hers is protected, what happened to innocent until proven guilty?



Raphael -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/15/2005 6:02:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I have a post written on another board from a woman who is in a national organization that helps submissives who might be in trouble. This woman had interacted personally with the slave in question. It is a very interesting read and states that the slave in this case had been on the website in question for years and also in a specific aol chat room proclaiming her love and devotion to her Master. Even when others tried to step in because they felt her Master was a bit too extreme and offered her help and protection, apparently she her answer was that everything was entirely consentual and she had complete trust and was "supremely happy as his slave". Problems did not arise until slave number 2 came on board, a woman who was more extreme and didn't have to work as hard at her submission. Apparently all of this was played out very publicly and I would think that all of those records, postings and conversations could be subpeonaed.


Which board?




ManOwner -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/15/2005 6:46:31 PM)

This is why I won't do anything illegal. We've been through this before, consent is not a defense to inflicting severe injury. I've had guys ask me what I have against beating them, and I tell them that I don't want to be arrested one day when they decide they don't like me anymore.

Check out this quote:

"She was completely demeaned and dehumanized," the source told The News of one victim. "I don't think people would do to a dog what had happened to her."

Why do people say that? Since when are dogs supposed to be abused?



mistoferin -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/15/2005 9:39:43 PM)

quote:

Which board?


Well it is a private board for my local group. I would be more than happy to provide you with information if you would like to contact me on the other side.



AnnaB -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/15/2005 10:50:31 PM)

If a man or a woman has been committed to be a slave without limit, he/she shouldn't do such a thing like going to legal. Too bad that real legal slavery doesn't exsist anymore. [:'(]



Guest -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/16/2005 3:30:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaB

If a man or a woman has been committed to be a slave without limit, he/she shouldn't do such a thing like going to legal. Too bad that real legal slavery doesn't exsist anymore. [:'(]


And I'm sure you would think exactly the same if you were the one that was owned with no rights and forced into the sex trade.



cellogrrlMK -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/16/2005 7:07:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOwner

Why do people say that? Since when are dogs supposed to be abused?


AMEN ManOwner!!!!



MsSilvie -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/16/2005 7:54:48 AM)

Without knowing any of the people involved in the situation, that still doesn't say to me that it is a case of the slave trying to retaliate against her former owner. People in extreme situations do not respond in the way that you would expect. It's well documented that people will bond very strongly to an abusive partner, in part due to the trauma in their lives brought on by this partner.

Two examples:

Cameron Hooker kidnapped one woman (and had killed another victim prior to that) and held her as a slave for 7 years. In his defense, he claimed it was a voluntary relationship, and was able to produce love letters that this woman wrote to him. She had bonded to him in the course of her captivity. Hooker perhaps would have had more of a chance of acquittal had his wife not collaborated the slave's story.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/psychology/sex_slave/12.html?sect=19


Elizabeth Smart, who was abducted in Utah by a pair of religious fanatics, initially denied her identity to the police when she was recovered, in order to "protect" the couple took her away from her family. She showed a great deal of concern for them, when logically, she should not have.

http://www.cultnews.com/2003_03_09_archive.html

Again, I don't think anyone is aware of ALL the facts in this case in NY. But I really would not be so sure that it was all consensual and the slave is suffering from sour grapes. People do not always have the ability to escape from a situation like this, or even to identify it to others. You and I probably would act differently in those circumstances, but believe me, predators are very adept at picking out victims who are vulnerable and less likely to be able to break away from an abusive situation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I have a post written on another board from a woman who is in a national organization that helps submissives who might be in trouble. This woman had interacted personally with the slave in question. It is a very interesting read and states that the slave in this case had been on the website in question for years and also in a specific aol chat room proclaiming her love and devotion to her Master. Even when others tried to step in because they felt her Master was a bit too extreme and offered her help and protection, apparently she her answer was that everything was entirely consentual and she had complete trust and was "supremely happy as his slave".




mistoferin -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/16/2005 10:35:36 AM)

quote:

Again, I don't think anyone is aware of ALL the facts in this case in NY. But I really would not be so sure that it was all consensual and the slave is suffering from sour grapes. People do not always have the ability to escape from a situation like this, or even to identify it to others. You and I probably would act differently in those circumstances, but believe me, predators are very adept at picking out victims who are vulnerable and less likely to be able to break away from an abusive situation.


I completely agree. I am sorry if it seemed that I was passing judgement, as that was certainly not my intent. The intent of what I posted was merely to say that if indeed the communications stated in the post I received actually took place, I would certainly think that those communications would be able to be traced and would be admissable and have an impact upon the case.



MsLisa -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/16/2005 7:56:58 PM)

I have known GM on AOL for literally years and have spoken to him and several of his ladies over that time. I don't agree with his version of BDSM but maybe that's why I've never been approached by him in a dominant way. He is extreme. He is a very straight forward person with his wants/desire/expectations so I say "buyer beware" to any of the numerous ladies who approach him. As far as this particular situation goes, there are many factors we don't know and will never know.

It does opens a topic for me of self responsibility. Did he do very extreme things to the ladies in his service? Yep. Did he lie to get them there? I seriously doubt it. He doesn't hide his expectations and what he does is proudly displayed on his website. Why would anyone walk into that knowingly and then blame the person?

The lady pressing charges left his service years ago according to the newsreports. I look back over my life (hell, just last week) and think to myself, I can't believe I DID "that". What was I thinking? But it was a choice I made at the time to do that activity. Its no one else's fault that I did it. I am responsible for my actions or inactions. There has to be a point where a person has to be responsible for themselves.

GM makes no bones about the fact that he doesn't use safe words. He also doesn't sugar coat what he wants nor does he romanticize the relationships he fosters. To me, someone knowingly walking into something like that does make me believe it was consensual. The newsreports also bring up the abused spouse mentality. But at some point the person made the choice to leave his service anyway. Others left it. Now if the allegations of blackmail are proven, hell yes, fry his ass for that cause that ain't right.

What worries me most about this case is how it is going to be blown out of proportion. There are many activities he's being accused of that are pretty mellow for many BDMS'ers. If this story hits the national press its going to truly set back the "well being" and tolerance we try to encourage between the nilla world and our own.



MsLisa -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/17/2005 10:15:14 AM)

From an email group I belong to.....

This is a link to one of GM's former "slaves" profiles... check out the link to her home page. Also, keep in mind that I saw this same girl REPEATEDLY accuse him of abuse. I'm talking daily for a year at least... all while she had a competitive pay website called amateurslave.com. She is the one he kept in a cage to make her lose weight. the articles talk about him calling his slaves pooch and doggie. This is doggie... who used to just go on and on playing "puppy girl" in the room... talking about crawling... fetching... licking her Master's hand and being fed *treats*... eating from a dog dish, etc. She would also go on and on about being a *no limits* slave.



(posting what the webpage says below for those few not on aol)

For the record, I'd like everyone to know that I have never been a victim of anything. My relationship with my former Master was, for the most part, an amazing and wonderful experience. He opened me up to myself, and I wouldn't be who I am today without having been with him, *loved* him, and experienced the things that I did.

Lots of people said then, and say now, that much of what he did was abuse. My definition of the boundary between BDSM and abuse is, and always has been, fully informed consent. Once I stopped consenting, he needed to let me go... he did not, unfortunately. But I did wind up leaving, because I'm a strong person and also a majorly stubborn chick.

However I am not now, nor ever was, a VICTIM of anything except what I considered to be a major flaw in his judgement in our final days. What happened after I left, I cannot vouch for one way or the other... I can only speak for myself and say that while I was with him, everything we did was consensual.

I am now engaged to a wonderful man (mr. wonderful, the man of my dreams, the love of my life!), and a small business owner with a home in the country, two fabulous dogs, and an incredible sex life which is still very very alternative, and still 100% consensual.

sincerely,
tamara, aka: doggy

I deleted the link to her profile since I couldn't make it work on here.....Interesting...



BobcatsLilMinx -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (5/17/2005 2:52:42 PM)

I don't know how it is the US, but in the UK I know that any submissive/masochist can go to court, and the arguement "it was voluntary" means nothing if it is deemed that the dominant/sadist's actions were in violation of the European Human Right's Act. Unfortunately, this IS necessary, to prevent those cases where women really are kept in non-consensual slaveries and abuse being theown out of court because the defendant claims it was voluntary.

A lot of people talk about the safety of the female submissive - what a vulnerable place she puts herself in. It's also important to recognise how vulnerable a dom is these days too. The very second he lifts a hand to a woman, he is placing a huge amount of faith and trust in her, because "consensual" doesn't even enter the situation in the UK at the moment, if she later goes to the police and claims he assaulted her - especially if she bruises/ marks to "prove" it.

Like anything else, the protection that our governement offers to women can be abused. And when that happens, it makes the entire system less effective. It just comes back to that thing, of not accepting a submission from anyone but a woman you really rtust, and then, writing a slave contract between you, in which it states clearly that the slavery was consensual. Admittedly, even that document may not hold any sway in court at all, but it's better than your word against theirs.

Minx



sf-Sub -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (6/10/2005 2:13:15 AM)

Well reality, the law and fantasy all need to be kept in check. Perhaps this is why some people write down exactly what they want and for how long with a safe-word exit.

What the best solutions are for keeping all sides in balance is a whole other discussion.

I can see it now soon you will have to visit the courthouse for a permit to play.



MsSilvie -> RE: "Voluntary Sadomasochistic Relationship," (6/11/2005 1:10:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BobcatsLilMinx

I don't know how it is the US, but in the UK I know that any submissive/masochist can go to court, and the arguement "it was voluntary" means nothing if it is deemed that the dominant/sadist's actions were in violation of the European Human Right's Act. Unfortunately, this IS necessary, to prevent those cases where women really are kept in non-consensual slaveries and abuse being theown out of court because the defendant claims it was voluntary.


If you are refering to the Spanner case, that is a really strange situation (at least for me, looking at it from the US). My understanding is that one person was convicted solely for something like conspiring to commit assult, ON HIMSELF!

I can understand perfectly the need to sometimes be able to prosecute even if the victim can't/won't testify. But consent and intent play a huge part in BDSM activity. If a perrson takes up karate or boxing, it's probably a given that you are going to come home roughed up if you are doing some sparring. A person might come home equally roughed up from getting mugged. But the legal system deals with muggers differently than with sparring partners. And it should! You've consented to one, and not to the other.

quote:

A lot of people talk about the safety of the female submissive - what a vulnerable place she puts herself in. It's also important to recognise how vulnerable a dom is these days too. The very second he lifts a hand to a woman, he is placing a huge amount of faith and trust in her, because "consensual" doesn't even enter the situation in the UK at the moment, if she later goes to the police and claims he assaulted her - especially if she bruises/ marks to "prove" it.


It's not an equal playing field, that's for sure. I probably face less potential problems as a female top, but even I'm very cautious about my playing partners. The very first things I look for is stability and character. I would be even more cautious if I were male. Because if someone claims afterward that they didn't consent, that can be a life impacting accusation, even if it's false.

quote:


Like anything else, the protection that our governement offers to women can be abused. And when that happens, it makes the entire system less effective. It just comes back to that thing, of not accepting a submission from anyone but a woman you really rtust, and then, writing a slave contract between you, in which it states clearly that the slavery was consensual. Admittedly, even that document may not hold any sway in court at all, but it's better than your word against theirs.


A contract isn't legal. Showing one may actually backfire, because it could be inturpreted as the dominant intended to abuse the submissive. The best thing you could have is a long running relationship where there is communication back and forth. But obviously, even then, problems can come up.



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