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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/22/2005 6:43:10 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
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From: Davis, Ca
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

If you believe that a Dom needs to be a submissive first in order to be a better Dom, then shouldn't you believe a sub should be a Dom first in order to be a better sub? I don't think anyone feels that way that I know of.

I do :) But then, I'm a little bit odd.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/22/2005 6:57:52 PM

wavier

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hi just to share my opinion on this discussion,
i believe the best doms are those who really knows what the sub wants thru
communication & observation
a dom who takes time to understand the sub and lead him/her along the way

i guess how to be a best dom can't really be answered 'correctly'
ultimately there isn't a guide/dummy book on this =D
and i guess the best dom are those with happy & fulfilled subs

this shld be in the ask a sub section rite :P

(in reply to Estring)

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/23/2005 1:17:01 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Actually Focus, I was attempting to engage you in a thought provoking discussion.

If you cannot understand me, then I'd be glad to explain it again. However, I will not do so if you choose to belittle me. I will not allow you to do so.

We obviously disagree on a variety of points but you don't see me finding the need to insult you.

- LA

It's all very well to claim such a moral and commendable philosophy in *theory* but I find it a bit rich when you do so after serving this patronising little gem up to me: "No matter how much you want to be pregnant, it is never going to happen. I mean unless there are major medical breakthroughs in our lifetime."

I'm all for "thought provoking discussion" but if it's just gonna be "provoking", I can do that, too! We do disagree on several points (which is healthy on a public Forum) but the biggest difference is that I did see you finding the need to insult me and I returned serve in kind....

Focus50.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

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Post #: 63

RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/23/2005 8:24:59 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
It's all very well to claim such a moral and commendable philosophy in *theory* but I find it a bit rich when you do so after serving this patronising little gem up to me: "No matter how much you want to be pregnant, it is never going to happen. I mean unless there are major medical breakthroughs in our lifetime."

I really don't see how this statement is insulting. It is the simple truth. I was not suggesting that you wanted to be pregnant. I was talking in general terms. You really should not read into things so much. Not everything is directed as an insult to you. I will guarantee you that my post had no ill-intent but only to draw a parallel in the spirit of an interesting debate. If you don't believe me, well that is your prerogative.

quote:

I'm all for "thought provoking discussion" but if it's just gonna be "provoking", I can do that, too! We do disagree on several points (which is healthy on a public Forum) but the biggest difference is that I did see you finding the need to insult me and I returned serve in kind....

No. I was not trying to provoke. As I said, I was drawing a line between what was impossible biologically and what was just impossible mentally. I don’t understand how you found that insulting. Perhaps because you took it as a personal attack? I was using the hypothetical “you” (which most people can distinguish) and not you precisely. You read insult where there was none. I truly come to collarme forums to engage in thought provoking discussions. I have no need to have negative energy discussions.

Let me share a little trick with you. I learned to assume that people had no ill-intent and asked for clarification before jumping to conclusions. I don't do it always, it is a work in progress, but it has saved me many an argument.

Now are you willing to put this misunderstanding behind us and realise that there was no ill-intent? The ball is in your court.

- LA

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/24/2005 1:56:23 AM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
It's all very well to claim such a moral and commendable philosophy in *theory* but I find it a bit rich when you do so after serving this patronising little gem up to me: "No matter how much you want to be pregnant, it is never going to happen. I mean unless there are major medical breakthroughs in our lifetime."

I really don't see how this statement is insulting. It is the simple truth. I was not suggesting that you wanted to be pregnant. I was talking in general terms. You really should not read into things so much. Not everything is directed as an insult to you. I will guarantee you that my post had no ill-intent but only to draw a parallel in the spirit of an interesting debate. If you don't believe me, well that is your prerogative.

quote:

I'm all for "thought provoking discussion" but if it's just gonna be "provoking", I can do that, too! We do disagree on several points (which is healthy on a public Forum) but the biggest difference is that I did see you finding the need to insult me and I returned serve in kind....

No. I was not trying to provoke. As I said, I was drawing a line between what was impossible biologically and what was just impossible mentally. I don’t understand how you found that insulting. Perhaps because you took it as a personal attack? I was using the hypothetical “you” (which most people can distinguish) and not you precisely. You read insult where there was none. I truly come to collarme forums to engage in thought provoking discussions. I have no need to have negative energy discussions.

Let me share a little trick with you. I learned to assume that people had no ill-intent and asked for clarification before jumping to conclusions. I don't do it always, it is a work in progress, but it has saved me many an argument.

Now are you willing to put this misunderstanding behind us and realise that there was no ill-intent? The ball is in your court.

- LA

I'm not totally convinced with your reasoning here as it's not nearly so black & white as you're claiming.... Your hypothetical "you" was not used in a general sense but in a direct quote and response to my post - hence I (or any reasonable person) is perfectly entitled to interpret it as aimed directly at myself. So, yes, I took it as a personal attack and you do seem intelligent enough to understand how it could be seen as intended as an insult - even if your motive may have been otherwise.

And receiving it in a different context to that which you may have intended doesn't qualify me as "jumping to conclusions" either, though I suspect you enjoy flirting in the "grey areas" of interpretation, nonetheless.... This isn't meant to be an insult (honest injun) but you're not a lawyer, are you?

Ok, I'll take you at your word and call it all a misunderstanding; a clean slate - deal?

Focus50.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/24/2005 2:13:08 AM

Focus50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wavier

and i guess the best dom are those with happy & fulfilled subs

Bullseye - direct hit!

quote:

this shld be in the ask a sub section rite :P

This topic would fit well in either Forum; it comes up regularly in the lifestyle....

Focus50.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/24/2005 4:20:50 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
I'm not totally convinced with your reasoning here as it's not nearly so black & white as you're claiming.... Your hypothetical "you" was not used in a general sense but in a direct quote and response to my post - hence I (or any reasonable person) is perfectly entitled to interpret it as aimed directly at myself. So, yes, I took it as a personal attack and you do seem intelligent enough to understand how it could be seen as intended as an insult - even if your motive may have been otherwise.

And receiving it in a different context to that which you may have intended doesn't qualify me as "jumping to conclusions" either, though I suspect you enjoy flirting in the "grey areas" of interpretation, nonetheless.... This isn't meant to be an insult (honest injun) but you're not a lawyer, are you?

Ok, I'll take you at your word and call it all a misunderstanding; a clean slate - deal?

Focus50.

Fair enough. I see your point of view. I'm glad you could realize that my intentions were not to flame you. And for the record, I am rarely a black/white kind of thinker but in this case, I was attempting to do just that! Perhaps I'm not that successful at it. I’ll stick to the shades of grey.

As for the lawyer bit, nope. And I don't take it as one since of my boys is a lawyer ;)

And I appreciate the diplomatic offer to clean the slate. Accepted. Bygones!

- LA

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/24/2005 5:52:27 AM

darkinshadows

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In my opinion - from an artists point of view

Domination is a form of artistry.
And in performing and exercising that art - there are two ways.

One is a natural and can lay a pencil down to the paper and create.

One has the desire, but must learn the art before they can lay the pencil down to the paper and create.

Peace and Love

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/24/2005 5:20:34 PM

LadyAngelika

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Interesting model angel, but it excludes those who have latent talent that simply needs to be harnessed.

They cannot just start. The talent is latent.

They understand the art deep down inside, they simply need to turn on the switch to be the first example in your model.

I sincerely believe that is where I fit in the equation. I've always been naturally dominant. I was afraid of my dominance. I never had to learn how to be dominant. I had to learn how to let myself be dominant.

- LA

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/25/2005 3:03:23 AM

darkinshadows

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Thank You M'Lady A for pointing out an extremly interesting point.

Just as an example - when I became more serious in art - it was a really similar experience. I loved art - I adored it - (some people say that I am a natural artist - but thats something I still have difficulty grasping the concept of - my own worst critic I guess) I was - and in some respects - still am - afraid of my artistry. I don't 'learn' it however - I learn how to paint for myself. However, I do experimente, say - with the best tecnique for mixing oils for example - as a dominant such as yourself may learn a 'trick of the trade' - say - how to use a whip correctly or how to tie a quick release knot for safety. Thats the learning part I meant - I completely understand your thought on -

quote:

I had to learn how to let myself be dominant.

Not sure if I am making myself sound clear?

Peace and Love

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/25/2005 11:49:51 AM

MasterMissouri

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Hello...

Having read thru the thread, there is only this that I would like to add, from My decade plus time in the Lifestyle.

I have always been dominant, but I have always also had great empathy for others. I *must* have a reasonable expectation for what My influence on another (this case, read 'submissive') will be. If My actions will not be to the sub's advantage, why would I act as I contemplate? While I don't believe one needs to *be* a submissive first, to become a Dom, I DO believe one needs to know WHY one wants to *have* a submissive. In whose interest is it?

The sub (to be obvious here... sorry) has the power in the relationship. The power to offer his/her submission to another person. The trust, the willingness to give such, must certainly be honored by the Dom, and the sub must have the Dom's respect for such a gift. That includes the Dom's ability to empathize with the sub's situation. From that, I feel, the successful dom/sub relationship flows.

If I have confused the issue, please feel free to alert Me. If I have strayed from the issue, accept My apologies.

MasterMissouri

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/25/2005 11:57:26 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMissouri
The sub (to be obvious here... sorry) has the power in the relationship.

*spitting keys out of mouth after banging head on keyboard*
No, the sub doesn't have "the power" in the relationship.

quote:

The power to offer his/her submission to another person.

The sub has THAT power.

quote:

The trust, the willingness to give such, must certainly be honored by the Dom, and the sub must have the Dom's respect for such a gift.

What about the trust and the willingness to give dominance by the dom?

And many here don't consider it a "gift."

And what do you mean by "honor?" For some people simply being given the opportunity to serve is a great honor.

quote:

That includes the Dom's ability to empathize with the sub's situation. From that, I feel, the successful dom/sub relationship flows.

Depends on which type of relationship you want. I certainly do agree that empathy is a great skill for people to have. I don't consider myself very empathetic, but I am very intuitive.

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/25/2005 1:06:43 PM

darkinshadows

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There is a thread(or two) on 'Gift'

Like Emerald said - not everyone holds to the gift analagy - I know Demon and I do not.

quote:

The trust, the willingness to give such, must certainly be honored by the Dom, and the sub must have the Dom's respect for such a gift

I do - painfully - take exception to the belief that a sub must expect a Doms respects? How about visa versa? It isn't about what I will 'get' in return - its obeying the natural order of things through my 'calling' as it were. I don't expect anything in return for my submission or my service. I just exist within what I am.

As myself - I have empathy for everyone - whatever and whoever they are. Of course - some people share a deeper empathy with me and from me - but doesn't mean I always agree with them - or share a view.

Submissive don't hold control and they don't hold the power within the relationship - they have a power that exists - but that doesn't control the situation - it might be a fine line and distinction - but it is the cause ... ino the effect.

Peace and Love

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/25/2005 4:13:50 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Not sure if I am making myself sound clear?

Yes you are. I agree with your analogy 100%.

- LA

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RE: The best Dominants are submissives first? - 5/26/2005 3:45:59 AM

Focus50

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From: Newcastle, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMissouri

The sub (to be obvious here... sorry) has the power in the relationship.

This statement is probably better suited to EmeraldSlave's excellent TPE thread.... As I said in that thread, I believe Dom/me and sub have *equal* power - it defies all logic that the sub holds the balance of power. If my girl leaves the relationship, it ends - agreed. If I leave the relationship; *same* result!

This "gift of submission" is nothing more than a romantic D/s notion - ie it's not truly a gift as it's only offered with a reasonable expectation of getting something equally desirable in return; so it's more like currency. Which again makes us equal; of possessing equal power. This is also why I don't view submissives as inferior; she is merely out-ranked within the dynamic of our relationship. So I don't honour her gift of submission so much as appreciate it's unique quality and it's 50% contribution in enabling our D/s relationship to exist and evolve....

So it's a bit off-topic but this thread seems to have run it's course anyway. But I've gotta think that if you believe your sub holds the power in your relationship; then she truly does....

Focus50.

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