The Goal

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RiotGirl -> The Goal (5/15/2005 4:18:55 PM)
i've been told that those who are a challenge to train and reach their submision, submission is always sweeter. BUT if the goal of submission is pretty much submission and submission is pretty much the same (lets say in slaves). No matter how you go about it. So lets take Slave A and say she's a challenge.....to get her to her submission and Slave B who isnt a challenge and it all comes quite easily Why is it any sweeter with slave B? And really if its all going to the same place why would anyone want to deal with all the work that has to be done to overcome a challenge? (aside from those who enjoy a challenge) i've just heard many times that its submission is always sweeter when its a challenge. but WHY would it possibly be sweeter ? (instead of just more work) i mean really the basics are all the same.

mistoferin -> RE: The Goal (5/15/2005 4:25:36 PM)
hmmmmm....not really sure if this is what you are looking for but....if a woman is submissive in all of her actions to everyone she comes in contact with, then when she is submissive to you she is not really giving you anything that she isn't giving everyone else. But if a woman is assertive and in control of her world in all other aspects, except when she is with you she is completely submissive...and she does so out of respect for you and a great desire to please you, even when it is hard for her to do....then don't you have something special that no one else gets from her?

Padriag -> RE: The Goal (5/15/2005 5:03:05 PM)
You answered your own question. For some, it is sweeter because they enjoy the challenge. Its that simple. Its not that they are a better submissive, having been more of a challenge does not in any way imply they will be more submissive. In fact, some who are such a challenge to bring to submission may never be very good submissives and perhaps should not be at all. Personally, I'm one of those who sees it as a lot of additional work that is ultimately unnecessary if I choose wisely what submissive I will accept. My preference is for a submissive who wants to submit, is eager for it, and embraces it freely and willingly so that we can get on with the teaching, training, molding, shaping, etc. etc. etc., rather than spending quite of a lot of my energy and valuable time "breaking" them. I don't break things, I build things, improve things, and create things. I apply that philosophy applies to slaves as well.

Voltare -> RE: The Goal (5/15/2005 5:05:14 PM)
I've always believed that if life was too easy, it wouldn't be any fun. I didn't go out of my way to find a submissive that was difficult, nor would I have backed down from such a challenge. In my particular situation, I didn't get involved in Ds because I was interested in the trappings of a Dom. I don't feel more powerful wearing black leather pants or holding a whip (though I might feel less powerful wearing a skirt and bunny slippers.) Certainly there are other people who enjoy slaves & Ds for the thrill of training. Personally, I just enjoy the person I am with. If she was a 'difficult' to train slave, then it would just require more work and planning on my part - no different then if she had a physical disability or personality traits that I don't like. As time goes by, I suspect I would grow to love her 'difficulties' as being uniquely part of her. Stephan

LadyAngelika -> RE: The Goal (5/15/2005 5:43:29 PM)
quote: i've been told that those who are a challenge to train and reach their submision, submission is always sweeter. I don't see much to gain from a relationship where I will learn nothing and my partner will learn nothing from me. I don't see much to gain from a relationship where I will not be challenged and where I will not have any challenges from my partner. I don't see much to gain if it's all challenges, uphill battles and resistance. I see a wonderful opportunity somewhere in the middle of all that. - LA

SirKenin -> RE: The Goal (5/15/2005 6:02:32 PM)
The greater the challenge, the greater the sense of satisfaction upon overcoming it.

RiotGirl -> RE: The Goal (5/15/2005 7:18:17 PM)
quote: even when it is hard for her to do....then don't you have something special that no one else gets from her? AH HA thats it kind of what i was looking for thanks a bunch hon = )

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: The Goal (5/15/2005 7:18:29 PM)
The Owner wants challenge in some areas and compliance in others. I think its more finding the challenges that are compatible with your style. We do like to be challenged (unless we're insecure) to see beyond where we are now. But it is tiring, and it's certainly not always submitting to challenge. One has to know whats appropriate and what isn't. And where the line between them is totally depends on the dominant themselves.

Kiaban -> RE: The Goal (5/15/2005 7:27:20 PM)
Personally I don't need the challange to get excited..been there done that. I don't shy away from it when presented or anything but the simple dynamic of D/s never seems to get old to me. curled up at my feet, or bound to the bed, its all rather beautiful every time.

RiotGirl -> RE: The Goal (5/15/2005 7:39:30 PM)
i think Misto actually hit the nail on the head the rest of you are out in left field Its not about the "challenge" and whether a challenge is good or bad or you like it or not Its about the goal of submission and why do some ppl consider it "sweeter" if its challenging

LadyAngelika -> RE: The Goal (5/15/2005 8:03:27 PM)
quote: i think Misto actually hit the nail on the head the rest of you are out in left field Yanno, if you aren't open to hearing other people's points of view, perhaps you shouldn't start a thread asking for them. Your comment was far from impressive or appreciated. - LA

junecleaver -> RE: The Goal (5/15/2005 8:58:44 PM)
quote: And really if its all going to the same place why would anyone want to deal with all the work that has to be done to overcome a challenge? Well, I'm glad that someone might want to. I'm not naturally submissive and even though submission is something I want, I stab myself in the foot constantly. It's self-destructive. Not to mention it's frustrating when what you are sure is best for you conflicts with the way you've lived your life thus far. I think I'll meet someone who is willing to help my coax my submissive side out though. quote: i've just heard many times that its submission is always sweeter when its a challenge. Probably from people the enjoy challenges. You know some people like putting together a puzzle, others find it boring. Preferences, preferences, preferences. Diversity gives me a headache sometimes, buth it does add a certain spice to life. quote: but WHY would it possibly be sweeter ? (instead of just more work) i mean really the basics are all the same. You enjoy the fruits of your labor. More labor, more fruits. Somethings really are worth working for. I always root for the underdog though. Maybe I have a complex.

ElektraUkM -> RE: The Goal (5/16/2005 4:11:06 AM)
For us, the process seems like it's one towards which we're both working hard (err, and enjoying! ~ it's sweeter if you're actually enjoying it too, not just working). I'm not naturally submissive to just anyone i meet (far from it!), but i'd always wanted to submit to a lover/partner, though before i met Master and he showed me what this life can actually be about i wouldn't have described my needs like that. Once we found eachother, then began the work to actually achieve that submission fully. There were various issues to face... could i make a lifetime commitment?, how could we (he) deal with my lilfelong problems with trust?, and so on... things to work on together... and as we succeed, little by little, it certainly is sweet... and its just the beginning. I don't know if Master has any kind of view of how he wants me to be exactly... perhaps neither of us have a view of how it will be... all i experience is a gradual moulding of us together as a couple who interact in the way we both want, with no 'lumpy bits'. Not sure if this is any kind of answer to the OP, but i just felt like expressing the thoughts and feelings that came up for me in reading this thread, since i've often felt like saying these things when i read about whipping subs into shape heh heh. ~ Elektra

Kiaban -> RE: The Goal (5/16/2005 7:17:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl i've been told that those who are a challenge to train and reach their submision, submission is always sweeter. BUT if the goal of submission is pretty much submission and submission is pretty much the same (lets say in slaves). No matter how you go about it. So lets take Slave A and say she's a challenge.....to get her to her submission and Slave B who isnt a challenge and it all comes quite easily Why is it any sweeter with slave B? And really if its all going to the same place why would anyone want to deal with all the work that has to be done to overcome a challenge? (aside from those who enjoy a challenge) i've just heard many times that its submission is always sweeter when its a challenge. but WHY would it possibly be sweeter ? (instead of just more work) i mean really the basics are all the same. Just tossing in from left field here, but you did mention challange 5 times by my count, so it would seem to have something to do with it.

BobcatsLilMinx -> RE: The Goal (5/16/2005 10:07:46 AM)
Is the goal ever reached...? I know I'll be disappointed on the day that my Master turns to me and says "Wow, you're a perfect slave, I guess that's the end of your training!" I always viewed submission as happening in different levels (maybe I'm completely at odds with everyone here, but I am a newbie, so hear it out, maybe it's an idea). Your sub/ slave starts off by submitting, ok, but that's not the end of it. There's another level below that, where s/he becomes yet more submissive. And another, and another... she starts off submitting because she wants to, and ends up submitting because she's unable to disobey. And then even there, there are deeper, further levels to push her too. Anyways, that aside, I think a girl who reaches a deep submission with her Master after several months of really hard work is going to mean a lot to a man, as he invested a lot of time and energy into her, and to see his labours produce a stunningly submissive creature must be greatly rewarding. A girl who was already practically perfect - what time has he invested, what part of that submission is specifically owed to him? If any man could have brought it out so easily, does that cheapen it, perhaps? I'm not a Dom, so I don't really know... But I think, when my Owner manages in mastering yet another part of me, if it was hard work, he feels a great sense of pride at his work, and pleasure seeing what he achieved. If I just folded instantly to his will... I don't think that sense of triumph would be there. I hope my opinions are accurate anyway... because I know I am a challenge... and I like to think that afterwards, when he "wins the fight", he feels as fulfilled as I do. Just a couple of thoughts... Minx

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: The Goal (5/16/2005 10:11:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BobcatsLilMinx Anyways, that aside, I think a girl who reaches a deep submission with her Master after several months of really hard work is going to mean a lot to a man, as he invested a lot of time and energy into her, and to see his labours produce a stunningly submissive creature must be greatly rewarding. Months? You're barely getting into the training and focusing process at that point, once the initial lust and fervor has worn off. I agree, a "stunningly submissive creature" such as you or I or anyone here would be great to have, and it certainly doesn't end just because you've had a few months or years of good training.

BobcatsLilMinx -> RE: The Goal (5/16/2005 10:19:12 AM)
quote: Months? You're barely getting into the training and focusing process at that point, once the initial lust and fervor has worn off. laughs ah crap, I was hoping it would all be over soon [;)] Years, then. I did think about putting that, but wasn't sure... quote: a "stunningly submissive creature" such as you or I or anyone here grins I don't count myself there. I wish I could... these last few days have been hard for me, and Master, but here's hoping I come out of this all a little more stunning... and a little more submissive.

mistoferin -> RE: The Goal (5/16/2005 10:27:38 AM)
quote: laughs ah crap, I was hoping it would all be over soon Years, then. I did think about putting that, but wasn't sure... Too funny! Well I have been at it over 25 years now and I am still FAR from perfect. Guess if I would have attained perfection in just a few short months I'd be pretty bored with it all by now.

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: The Goal (5/16/2005 10:39:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BobcatsLilMinx grins I don't count myself there. I wish I could... these last few days have been hard for me, and Master, but here's hoping I come out of this all a little more stunning... and a little more submissive. I know, we all have those days. But how arrogant would I have looked and how much catfighting would have ensued if I had only said "A stunning submissive creature such as myself"? I noticed he posted how you spent ten full days together. You can squish a LOT into that time, but unfortunately what can also happen is that you get a myopic view of the person- a view of the person on vacation, in love, with no other pressures but to BE with eachother and wallow in that experience. That's not "real life" thats "vacation." It's a great feeling, and certainly one to enjoy, but it doesn't tell you everything and it doesn't help you get to know how you will work through the day to day hardships. That only comes with time and exposure. Trust the stunning one ;)

BobcatsLilMinx -> RE: The Goal (5/16/2005 11:32:48 AM)
quote: That's not "real life" thats "vacation." Well aware of this... We're just getting past that "initial lust" you mentioned earlier, and starting to put some serious thought and hard work into what we want from this. My main concern was that in the time he was here, he would see the extreme polarities of my personality disorder... and ten days turned out to be plenty of time... And... he's still interested..! So the most nerve-wracking part for me is over...

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