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RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 2:20:35 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

<snip>

God can't be immortal. This is because immortality is impossible. I spent most of the proof going on about it. A being defined as immortal, such as God, can't exist.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

— Hamlet I.5.187

Quoting a romantic notion- one that's made by a fictional character in a play made for entertainment- and one that's not even applicable to the situation- is basically as bad as having faith.

What you see as a romantic notion, my friend, I see as a glimmer of wisdom very much applicable to our discussion. If we know one thing about our universe, it is how little we know about our universe. You're assuming that all beings must conform to what we know now; I'm less sure about that.

X-rays come to mind. For millennia, they would have seemed an utterly fantastic notion: Invisible rays that can peer noninvasively beneath the skin and reveal the bones. Today, x-rays and MRIs and CT scans are prosaic facts of life. Our inability to imagine something today, that suggests to me, is a far cry from proving its nonexistence.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 221

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 2:23:20 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

So the topic of the OP was why are genius' crazy.

Now we have indeed my friends, found the answer. They think they are smart enough to successfuly debate the existence of God.

I rest my case.

I'm.. trying to figure out.. was this a joke or an actual statement in favor of intellectual surrender..?

As evidenced by my response above, I'm guessing it was a joke.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 222

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 2:43:17 PM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

What you see as a romantic notion, my friend, I see as a glimmer of wisdom very much applicable to our discussion. If we know one thing about our universe, it is how little we know about our universe. You're assuming that all beings must conform to what we know now; I'm less sure about that.

X-rays come to mind. For millennia, they would have seemed an utterly fantastic notion: Invisible rays that can peer noninvasively beneath the skin and reveal the bones. Today, x-rays and MRIs and CT scans are prosaic facts of life. Our inability to imagine something today, that suggests to me, is a far cry from proving its nonexistence.

There's a vast difference in assuming things about beings and knowing the basis of reality.

Immortality is impossible. It's a proof without any assumptions one can't back up. I'd challenge you to give me just one counter example- one, no matter how fantastic.

You know what? I see no way in which a divine being could control something far away instanteously. I don't contest such an ability to be possible- as there may be physics I don't yet understand allowing such. But such a divine being can't be immortal.

So, yes, the quote is correct- there may be more things out there than one can imagine. But you're taking it to mean that all things imaginable are possible- which is a false notion.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 223

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 3:30:05 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Immortality is impossible. It's a proof without any assumptions one can't back up. I'd challenge you to give me just one counter example- one, no matter how fantastic.

I'm not sure if these count, but I remember learning back in school that energy and matter were never destroyed; they simply change from one form to another. That sounds akin to being eternal to my admittedly unscientific mind.

Whatever energy/force gave rise to the Big Bang might also be eternal.

quote:

So, yes, the quote is correct- there may be more things out there than one can imagine. But you're taking it to mean that all things imaginable are possible- which is a false notion.

No, I'm not. I can imagine being an Olympic swimmer, for instance, but I'm keenly aware that it's not possible. What I am saying that there may be possible things that we can't even begin to imagine.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 224

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 3:53:50 PM

RythymMan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Ah, it's alright, my grammar's great.

No, it is not. Here you go,

...though I would believe that, at some point, somone was probably smarter than me was....

Learn the diff twixt objective and subjective pronouns, or
your grammar will still appear slightly below average.

just a thought,
2% is easy.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 225

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 4:03:45 PM

RythymMan

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“Now my own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.”

Is Haldane suggesting our universe buggers other universes in
unimagined orifices, or that the human mind is much too small
to even imagine the 'Real Truth'?

(in reply to RythymMan)

Post #: 226

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 4:07:13 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RythymMan

“Now my own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.”

Is Haldane suggesting our universe buggers other universes in
unimagined orifices, or that the human mind is much too small
to even imagine the 'Real Truth'?

I love that quote, and I assume he means the latter.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 5/28/2007 4:09:03 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to RythymMan)

Post #: 227

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 4:09:34 PM

luckydog1

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Look buddy.
-I cited a site saying God was immortal. No your souce said he was eternal, use a dictionary if you are confused on the 2 terms.
-"Immortal" means you don't die. Check a dictionary. thats one of the dictionaries' definitions, but since the christians use the different word eternal so what. that is simply evidence of you misdefining christianity....a strawman argument not worthy of a moderatly bright person.
-I disproved immortality. Only for the earth based organisms that have been examined by science, but agian Christians define god as Eternal not immortal
-Statistics is valid. Go ask a casino how they're so damn rich if you want proof. Statistics is a valid system if you have good data to use. But in this case you have none, a data set of zero. Any statistician will tell you that using a data set of zero is worthless.
-Hell, the computer you're on is relying on statistics to function. Yes it is, so what you are not using statistics in your argument (with a data set of zero), just pretending to....

Its kind of funny, there are many on these boards who agree with your conclusion 100%, but none of them are attempting to defend your weak argument.

And IMMORTAL and ETERNAL are not the same thing, despite you saying they are....

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 5/28/2007 4:10:44 PM >

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 228

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 4:13:35 PM

lovewithoutfear

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"Our inability to imagine something today, that suggests to me, is a far cry from proving its nonexistence."

My understanding of the basis for the argument against God, ghosts, etc. is that nonbelievers don't say they can prove such things don't exist -- what they say is that it CAN'T be proven that they DO exist, and that without such proof belief is foolish. Not a point of view I share, but I do respect it.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 229

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 4:31:42 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovewithoutfear

"Our inability to imagine something today, that suggests to me, is a far cry from proving its nonexistence."

My understanding of the basis for the argument against God, ghosts, etc. is that nonbelievers don't say they can prove such things don't exist -- what they say is that it CAN'T be proven that they DO exist, and that without such proof belief is foolish. Not a point of view I share, but I do respect it.

Love ---

I understand and respect that viewpoint too; some days, I come close to sharing it.

CL, though, offered earlier in the thread what he considers a proof for the nonexistence of God (or any immortal being). I've been trying to explain, poorly, why the proof doesn't sway me.

Cheers,

DC

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to lovewithoutfear)

Post #: 230

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 5:40:07 PM

CuriousLord

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Sorry, I'm not up for an emotional argument.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

And IMMORTAL and ETERNAL are not the same thing, despite you saying they are....

Ah wells. Anyhow, I'll ask about one thing, if you'd answer me straight. What's the difference between "immortal" and "eternal" when regarding a living being? (Typically, "immortal" is "eternal" confined to a living being". When both are already used in such a regard, they become, for the purpose of context, the same. Still, if I'm in error, or you have another idea, let's hear it.)

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 231

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 5:42:42 PM

CuriousLord

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2662278

quote:

ORIGINAL: RythymMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Ah, it's alright, my grammar's great.

No, it is not. Here you go,

...though I would believe that, at some point, somone was probably smarter than me was....

Learn the diff twixt objective and subjective pronouns, or
your grammar will still appear slightly below average.

Can't say I always try to speak properly, often for the sake of ease of comprehension, though in this case? Insert "I" in place of "me" and see it if it would sound less arrogant.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 5/28/2007 6:03:07 PM >

(in reply to RythymMan)

Post #: 232

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 5:42:59 PM

MissPlease

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Can anyone here tell me the undisputed age of the earth?

< Message edited by MissPlease -- 5/28/2007 5:45:07 PM >

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 233

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 5:44:53 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissPlease

Can anyone here tell me indisputably the age of the earth?

42

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Post #: 234

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 6:27:55 PM

MissPlease

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Great, now I know Who God is...
Sinergy,hmmm? ....clever disguise.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 235

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 7:16:46 PM

Termyn8or

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"What's the difference between "immortal" and "eternal" "

I think I can field that. It is similar to the subtle differences e.g. between'motor' and 'engine'. There is a difference, we know that, and they are subtle and difficult to describe, but they can be described.

From context (I have been reading since I was about 3, and was at college level before HS) I believe I can answer that question.

If one is IMMORTAL, once born, will not die until the end of time unless killed. It is not specific whether it is possible to kill them, and I do not believe the word precisely defines that.

If one is ETERNAL they existed since the beginning of time, and will not die, possibly even at the end of time, which is a vague concept in the first place, as is the beginning of time.

To really understand, one's concept of time must change, it must expand. Most people have great difficulty thinking outside of their own life cycle, nobody said it was easy.

You see there are also alot of people, despite high intelligence who think that the bunch of galaxies and whatever are part of the universe, they are not. Otherwise the big bang would have had no place to expand into. The universe was already there.

Now we're really headed for the deep end. Before the big bang what was there ? Nothing ? If nothing is there, does the space cease to exist ? I don't think so. This is similar to the "if a tree falls in the forest" thing, when there is noone there to hear it.

If God actually exists, and is truly God, it must exist without our support system, ecology whatever, and that includes the universe. Anyone who thinks our environment is stricly here on Earth better think again. Try living without the sun, or the asteroid belt which is luckily positioned correctly.

We don't know, there could be beings out there who have achieved immortality, and can bend space and time with their mind, and indeed it would take some 'time' to develop these skills. But you speak of what is supposed to be the and only true God, that is outside of the big bang. In other words, if God exists he existed before the beginning of OUR time.And that would mean that he is God for all aliens, creatures, whatever is out there as well, if they have found him.

But then they haven't found him and neither did we, reason is because you can't. To be eternal one must exist outside of the known universe, and if not, it ain't God.

Therefore my assertion is that the universe IS God.

Granted, all the needed points of logic are not there to prove it, but I think it fits. If you want extreme detail, I need a few more beers.

T

(in reply to MissPlease)

Post #: 236

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 5/28/2007 8:01:43 PM

luckydog1

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Well put termi8tor. I consider the idea that the universe is God to be plausible.

Cl you are still ascribing earth based biologic behavior to God. You have no data on of the Metronoms( or whatever big irrelvant word you used) of God. There is no reason to apply earth physical biology to that which existed before our universe was created, except you saying so. Which is not a logical argument, but a statement of Faith.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 237

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 3:17:03 AM

MissPlease

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Hrm... to prove or disprove 'God' existed so 'God' could create anything ......

We have tried to establish the age of the earth, much less the universe by many different measurements, (candle light theory, hubble telescope, etc,) We tried to judge how old the age of surrounding planets and such by studying current "Big Bangs." What a difficult thing to measure, much less grasp - infinity in all of it's expressed values. In any case, the age of the earth has not been able to be concretely established.

If we can do this, perhaps we can prove a finite point in time and space from which to trace our origins, and if we do find that, perhaps we call these origins 'God'. I have faith that there is an infinite that has connection with everything. As for immortal and eternal, well....there's a time and a place for everything, I suppose. *wink*

Take good care.

< Message edited by MissPlease -- 6/3/2007 3:20:43 AM >

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 238

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 3:36:15 AM

CuriousLord

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I'm growing so weary of trying to beat this through the heads.

Okay.

First.
"Eternal" vs. "Immortal". You both just agreed that neither would end. (Except, Termyn8or, you have "immortal" and "clinically immortal" confused.) Thus, the proof hods for either.

Second.
To define God as "the universe" is contrary to the Christian notion of an intelligent being being God. My theory does not contest this.

Third.

quote:

ORGINAL: luckydog1

Metronoms( or whatever big irrelvant word you used) of God.

1. The word was "micromer".
2. A forming part of an argument is relevant to the argument.
3. The word has eight letters.
4. In denouncing it, you used the word "whatever"- which is just as long.
5. You also used the word "irrelvant" is nine-letters long. Ten, if you spelt it correctly.
6. What the hell does its length have to do with anything, anyhow?
6.i. Excuse my use of "anything", for it was also eight-letters long.

Fourth.
I really hope you don't drink as much beer as I'm assuming you jest about, Termyn8or.

Fifth.
Measuring the age of our universe is done with Physics, as we believe it to be. While we hope it's accurate, it is not an absolute proof- just circumstantial evidence of a grand variety.

Sixth.
I'm busy lately, so excuse the slow responses.

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 239

RE: So Why Are All The Genius's Insane? - 6/3/2007 4:19:23 AM

darkinshadows

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Just because immortality and the eternal do not end, does not make them the same thing.

To be immortal - one must be eternal.

To be eternal - one does not need to be immortal.

Immortality is living forever. Immortality is a theory, and can never be proved.

God can never be immortal, since technically he did die.

However he can still be eternal - since one must have no beginning and no end.

One also has to decide whether the universe is finite or not.

And if it is infinate then that is the same as god.

And if the universe is god - that would reason that I am god also.

Peace and Rapture

From someone who knows her place

< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 6/3/2007 4:28:08 AM >

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