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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 6:25:42 PM   
CuriousLord


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

quote:

In my view, a slave fit to wear a collar does not disobey willfully.  One that does likely deserves to have the collar stripped from her.  I would not take back, or maintain, such a slave.


I willfully disobey Master sometimes..I don't think it can be helped ...I try to be but I'm far from perfect...I guess my point is just that, the relationship is established , the dynamic is established..the submissive/slave should be able to trsut the relationship enough to accept the repercussion of their actions decided by the dominant (whatever that is).


That's a shame.  Still, if your Master sees fit to keep you, I won't question his judgement on such an issue.

If I may ask, though, why do you willfully disobey at times?


quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

I dunno, maybe my situation is just really different...but fuck.....what if Master and I lost all our money and the only thing left to hock was my collar? Our relationship isnt gonna end cuz its gone. It woulda been taken from me for a purpose..just as the same as if he took it from me cuz I wasn't living up to it.

You know one thing Master has done to me when I've fucked up as a slave, he has withdrawn his dominance....wouldnt that be more terrifying for people than the removal of a piece of leather?


Ah, that's basically what we mean by taking away a collar- taking away that aspect of the relationship.

Hell, my slave and I still go to school and family homes a lot.  She doesn't wear any collar.  She's "collared" because I'm referring to her status- not a piece of jewelry or clothing she wears.  She just doesn't have that piece of leather.  (I'm not really big into following social trends.  A collar's basically that, like a ring is for vanilla folks.)

On a side note, I am intending to get her something.. but I'm still thinking about what it is to be.  I want it to be something deep and meaningful- even in my considerations- so it's going to take me time to come up with.  Maybe even some event in our lives that such a "collar" might refer back to, or back to a lesson or revealed trait from such.




Edit:  Major typo.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 5/23/2007 6:26:58 PM >

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 6:26:14 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

So I come back to the purpose of this topic: I was reading in another thread how people viewed a removal of a collar as the ending of a relationship. I just don't get it. Why can't it be possible for people to have D/s M/s relationships that are solid enough to withstand the decision of the dominant, no matter how harsh the lesson is? Why do we bring vanilla based ethics into D/s relationships? I guess I know the answer..but I would be interested in comments.



Because the collar is a symbol of both individual's committment to maintain the Ds dynamic. Once that committment is over the relationship is over.

I'm using the term"collar" here not simply as a physical object but as a symbol. It can be an object but it can also just be the committment itself.

I could claim to still have my Ds relationship if Fox removed his collar. I'd look like a complete fool because he will have left right after that.

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 6:28:07 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

quote:

In my view, a slave fit to wear a collar does not disobey willfully. One that does likely deserves to have the collar stripped from her. I would not take back, or maintain, such a slave.


I willfully disobey Master sometimes..I don't think it can be helped ...I try to be but I'm far from perfect...I guess my point is just that, the relationship is established , the dynamic is established..the submissive/slave should be able to trsut the relationship enough to accept the repercussion of their actions decided by the dominant (whatever that is).

I dunno, maybe my situation is just really different...but fuck.....what if Master and I lost all our money and the only thing left to hock was my collar? Our relationship isnt gonna end cuz its gone. It woulda been taken from me for a purpose..just as the same as if he took it from me cuz I wasn't living up to it.

You know one thing Master has done to me when I've fucked up as a slave, he has withdrawn his dominance....wouldnt that be more terrifying for people than the removal of a piece of leather?


I don't think you are grasping the collar symbol and not simply a physical object.

If you had to sell your collar to survive you could still have a "collar" around your heart, mind or soul that signified your committment to your master and his to you.

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 7:12:27 PM   
slavejali


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quote:

That's a shame.  Still, if your Master sees fit to keep you, I won't question his judgement on such an issue.
If I may ask, though, why do you willfully disobey at times?


Because I'm human and situations come up, but I (and Master most likely), see it as a learning process...and just to vindicate myself a bit, its not like a willfully disobey a lot..but it does happen.

quote:

Because the collar is a symbol of both individual's committment to maintain the Ds dynamic. Once that committment is over the relationship is over.


yes I can understand that...but you couldnt say Fox is absolutely obedient all the time could you? (please say he isnt or Im gonna get a slave complex lol)...so if he isnt....that means he is breaking the Ds dynamic through his actions, the collar means nothing in those times..so I dont see it a great big deal if the dominant took the collar off to remind a slave/submissiv eof their position...(not threatening the relationship itself ).

Like everyone knows I think, how much collars mean to a slave/submissive, an example of that for me could be it took me over a year to throw my ex-masters collar out, I just couldnt do it and it was me that ended the relationship. So I do understand what a collar means to people and its symbolism and the attachments we form with them....but like you said a bit later....

quote:

.....you could still have a "collar" around your heart, mind or soul that signified your committment to your master and his to you.


I think our real collars arent made of anything you can touch and that real collaring inside of us is what we should cling to, not the physical representations..and if a Master/Mistress wishes to take a slaves collar for whatever reason it shouldnt mean the end of the relationship unless like LA mentioned it was the deal to begin with....

But god...I'd hate that.... I can just imagine Master standing in front of me and taking my collar off..and then me just walking out the door knowing the relationship was over..that would be so fucked up...

In our relationships we talk to each other, more is gonna be going on than just the physical motions, like its not like a dominant taking a collar of a slave isnt gonna be talking to them telling them whats happening....there are gonna be other dynamics going on....I guess.......ugh...I thnk im confusing myself and getting the focus of this topic all screwed up lol.

Acutally no  Im not...

These would be different scenarios with different meanings:

1. Master takes collar off and says 'im done with you"

2. Master takes collar off and says' you will get it back when you've earned it"

And thats what Im meaning about how vanilla ideals (or ethics) get criss crossed over into D/s relationships.

The same situations cant apply with a wedding ring within a vanilla marriage, its jsut not the same and in my mind can't be likened to each other.

Once a wedding ring is off, the marriage is ended.

When your owned, your owned..however the dominant sees fit to modify behaviour...so the removal of a collar isnt like a wedding ring removal...or shouldnt be..well I shouldnt say "shouldn't' ..but I dont see why it needs to be that way necessarily.

< Message edited by slavejali -- 5/23/2007 7:29:37 PM >

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 7:46:47 PM   
slaveish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

Why can't it be possible for people to have D/s M/s relationships that are solid enough to withstand the decision of the dominant, no matter how harsh the lesson is? Why do we bring vanilla based ethics into D/s relationships? I guess I know the answer..but I would be interested in comments.


Because we live in the real world, everyone has needs and feelings, and most have some hard limits. There are some people who live as you have expressed it but I daresay, for the majority, that's just now how life works.

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 8:29:35 PM   
slavejali


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quote:



quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

Why can't it be possible for people to have D/s M/s relationships that are solid enough to withstand the decision of the dominant, no matter how harsh the lesson is? Why do we bring vanilla based ethics into D/s relationships? I guess I know the answer..but I would be interested in comments.

quote:

Because we live in the real world, everyone has needs and feelings, and most have some hard limits. There are some people who live as you have expressed it but I daresay, for the majority, that's just now how life works.


I guess my basic question comes from the basic thought of " Shouldnt we be with people we trust in the first place?' I don't think thats an unrealistic expectation of any relationship. And yes, I guess in the 'real world" there arent that many people we can trust, but given the types of relationships we are entering into, 'ability to trust ' is essential.


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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 8:43:01 PM   
WhiplashSmile


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Status: offline 		slavejali,
I found your post to be deeply moving in thought. 

Meaning to a slave
Out of all the causes to serve in humanity, the choice to serve and devote your life to another human being is a path that gives many slaves purpose and meaning in life.  Very well spoken and expressed. 

This is a point that every Master/Dom should be aware of in terms of the mindset of submissives.  I believe a slave in a TPE relationship is the deepest embodiment of service and devotion to another human being.  Even more so because it's consensual and not forced slavery. 

Forced vs. consentual slavery
There are people out there that simply don't understand the differences between forced and consentual slavery.  To be blunt there are people on this website who are listed as being Dom/mes that are trolling profiles and sending out emails, with this very misconception in their mindset. 

Negative vs. positive reinforcement
In a sense they are focused upon negative reinforcement techniques used in forced slavery, and don't have a grasp regarding the power of positive reinforcement in consentual slavery.  I'm not advocating not using negative reinforcement, just that positive reinforcement gets tossed aside or overlooked by some people.  I'm not proclaiming everybody is guilty of this.

Symbolisms
Human beings are simply symbolic creatures, we embrace and find meaning in events and objects.  Be it wedding rings, collars, pictures of jesus, a celtic cross, deck of tarot cards, clothing and other jewlery worn.  We tend to place value of the gifts we recieve from people at times.  Even family Heirlooms, pictures our children draw.  In short people tend to place emotional/ spiritual meaning and value on objects.   Ethics have very little to do with this process.  When we are stripped of these meaningful objects it causes distress and we feel a loss.  It's an emotional experience of loss. Something we highly valued was taken away, distroyed or lost.   Along with it we can feel sad or even can be prone to anger. 

The collar
I think just about anybody reading this thread is aware of the deeper meanings a collar has in a D/s or M/s relationship.  Many people equate it to being like a wedding ring.  It's a symbol of the D/s relationship itself.  Human nature itself craves for symbolism and meaning in life.  We tend to surround ourselves with things that have meaning.  They are touchstone reminders of our past, our present and even the future.    A collar is the most obvious of objects that people identify with as the symbol of  a Master/slave relationship.  Kind of like a 9 out 10 people naturally pick this object and this is why it's a norm. 

Besides the collar
Vanilla world Ethics have very little to do with this, it's more along the lines of good old fashioned human behavior.  The nuts and bolts that most people are programmed with.  If it was not a collar then some other object would be the establish norm to symbolize the commitment and value of M/s or D/s relationship.   Some people place high value on Branding and Tatoos.  Some people don't use collars to represent a M/s or D/s commitment.   It's a lot easier to remove a collar than it is to remove a tatoo.. Branding is not something that can be removed unless by means of cosmetic surgery.   Some people view branding and tatoos to carry the deeper meaning over the collar.

Removing a Collar
Anybody removing a collar from a sub/slave should really put some thought into it first.  It can carry the same effects upon a relationship as a taking back an engagement ring, a wedding ring or taking back anniversary gifts.

There could be a couple of reasons why a Master would uncollar a slave.
  • To end the relationship altogether.
  • Probationary Punishment for repeated or severe offenses where without question she was not being faithful in her submission and commitment to the M/s relationship itself.  She can either regain the collar or face the relationship ending. The terms of probation should be made very clear and concise.
  • To end the M/s relationship structure and continue onward as a vanilla relationship.  This could be a temporary break or a permanent end to the M/s dynamics.  The reasoning should be made very clear along with any additional terms.  The slave/submissive might be faced with making a decision to pack it in or not. 

Just because the collar has been removed does not automatically mean the relationship itself has to end.  It all depends upon the reasons and the terms behind the removal.  Just because the collar has removed does not automatically mean one is being released. 

If the collar carries great meaning it will be an emotional experience to process mentally regardless of the reason.  After all the M/s relationship itself gives a slave a sense of purpose in life.  The collar is a symbol of this meaning and reason for being. 

< Message edited by WhiplashSmile -- 5/23/2007 8:45:07 PM >

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 8:54:17 PM   
WhiplashSmile


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

The same situations cant apply with a wedding ring within a vanilla marriage, its jsut not the same and in my mind can't be likened to each other.

Once a wedding ring is off, the marriage is ended.

When your owned, your owned..however the dominant sees fit to modify behaviour...so the removal of a collar isnt like a wedding ring removal...or shouldnt be..well I shouldnt say "shouldn't' ..but I dont see why it needs to be that way necessarily.


You'd be amazed by how many people do this with Engagement Rings though! <grin>
Some people treat collars a bit like engagement rings, and use Branding/Tatoos as the symbols for long term commitment.
Just some food for thought about this.

< Message edited by WhiplashSmile -- 5/23/2007 8:55:26 PM >

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 9:10:34 PM   
ennaozzie


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Status: offline 		I have read all you wrote and some very interesting thoughts there certainly food for thought,
 
But what do you mean vanilla ethics?  I have always been of the impression that someone’s ethics are personal and individual no two persons ethics are the same.
 
My ethics once they where formed in the early years growing up.  Ethics being - your own belief system on how you conduct your life and in a way where you can sleep at night as the saying goes.
 
Living by your rules, ethics can even be hard limits – things you won’t even entertain let alone try or do.
 
Like someone asking you to do something which you would never do like murder or stealing.  Or the standards you have always had.
 
Although I have always been subbie I did not relate the way I was till I was in my 20’s, I did not relate it to D/s or BDSM, as my ignorant knowledge and or impressions of anything with the life style was very bad.
 
But once I had got to know people from the lifestyle I soon realised that I had known nothing of the lifestyle at all, that what I had heard was what you hear in the news of some that are into extremes and was not what I call a real sub or Master.  Those that claim to be of the lifestyle but only said so as an excuse to abuse, without truly believing in any variances of what the lifestyle is about.
 
But before and after I came to the realisation that I was subbie and that D/s was my life the ethics I had then have not changed and maybe a few more have been added, but the ethics I had back then are still with me and still very important ethics to me now as they where then.
 
So what is vanilla ethics?
 
Beanie

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 9:21:50 PM   
slavejali


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quote:

Just some food for thought about this.


hi Whiplashsmile, I dont really have anything to respond from your post, just wanted to thankyou for your reply, I enjoyed reading your response.


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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 9:24:52 PM   
slavejali


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quote:

But what do you mean vanilla ethics?
 
I probably used the wrong word for this forum, try replacing it with "ideals".

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/23/2007 9:26:33 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		Personally I'm trying to imagine a scenario with my partner which doesn't work pretty much as you expect things to work in your relationship Jali.  The only difference so far for me is that we don't have an expectation for one of us to have authority over the other.

Otherwise, there really isn't any difference.

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/24/2007 6:42:13 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

quote:

Because the collar is a symbol of both individual's committment to maintain the Ds dynamic. Once that committment is over the relationship is over.


yes I can understand that...but you couldnt say Fox is absolutely obedient all the time could you? (please say he isnt or Im gonna get a slave complex lol)...so if he isnt....that means he is breaking the Ds dynamic through his actions, the collar means nothing in those times..so I dont see it a great big deal if the dominant took the collar off to remind a slave/submissiv eof their position...(not threatening the relationship itself ).


Wow.

See you ask this and I had to stop and think. Then I had to ask my husband who would certainly be aware of this because it would probably shock me.

So I'm going to break this down because I would never want this to read like I'm passing any type of judgement on you, slavejali.

In the time I have trained and owned Fox he has never once willfully or purposely disobedied me. He has never refused to do something I have ordered nor has he simply not done it.

In terms of accidental disobedience, meaning that he tries but fails, that happened a few times in the first six months of training. He learned to ask questions and express concerns from this and I've learned to listen and plan for success in what I order and expect.

There are times when he responds to a command with requests for more time or more information. He has also learned to express his fears of failure earlier so we can address them.

The best and most recent example is the folding napkins issue. Years ago I showed him how I want things folded and one of his chores is to fold and put away all the linens. One day because I was stressed about something else I noticed that a couple of our hundred napkins were folded wrong and I got angry. That upset Fox who tries to be a perfectionist and he told me (after a few days, the boy can be slow) that he was afraid of making a mistake now when it came to that chore. So we talked it through. Guess who is more at fault here? Me. Why? They are napkins and it was a small error out of a hundred. So we refolded napkins together for a few weeks and then I let it go. I wonder if it's a gender thing because of the men who eat in our house notice this (misfolded napkin) but another woman did -- we had a Easter party at our place about this time.

Now I know a lot of people have very firm guidelines about obedience = immediate action without question or thought. I would rather have questions and information myself because I try to set up and maintain my household with a view to succeeding as a unit and as individuals. I try to make my expectations realistic and feasible.

I don't know if my rambling helped or not.

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/24/2007 6:49:21 AM   
Celeste43


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord



quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

However there are certain things that need to be present in any healthy relationship; trust, respect, acceptance, enjoyment of the other's company, compatibility, matching morals. As well as things that are specific to individual relationships.


How would you define a "healthy relationship"?


One in which both people's needs are being met, one in which resentment does not occur. One in which both people's self esteem is affirmed. Normal vanilla stuff. Being called a stupid, fucking whore might float your boat in scenes but having it screamed at you in a restaurant when you forgot to ask for the ketchup is wrong.

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/24/2007 7:10:07 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:



2. Master takes collar off and says' you will get it back when you've earned it"
 
Now see - to me that is like a threat every single time.  It is like treating someone as a complete child IMO - making threats and removing something just because you want things done a certain way - when reality is,  the thing you want done a certain way should be done not out of fear of losing anything, but because its what your slave/submissive wants to do for their Master/Mistress because you want to obey and you want to do such out of love and/or respect.
quote:

 
Once a wedding ring is off, the marriage is ended.
No - it isn't.
 
As for the collar, you are looking at it purely as an object - instead of seeing the symbol.  Until you see that - you will never comprehend what it means to some people.
 
Peace


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 5/24/2007 7:11:23 AM >

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/24/2007 7:41:52 AM   
slavejali


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quote:

I don't know if my rambling helped or not.


Sometimes I think I'm a really bad slave, I'm a perfectionist too and it kills me when I do the tinsiest thing wrong....I dn't think ive ever actually refused to ever do anything..well actually...maybe I have, when Master was getting my nipples pierced i thought he was joking at first..i couldnt even comprehend him having that done to me and i probably acted like I was refusing at first ...and I have a very bad habit of getting distracted and coming up with my own ideas when master has told me exactly how he wants something done....but anyways...and soemtimes i go on ebay when Im not supposed to....thats not bad in 3 years hey? but I really don't want to be like that or act that way..which if I told that same thing to Master, he would tell me, if i didnt really want to act that way I wouldnt, plain and simple. Anyways, Im totally distracted now and off-topic lol

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/24/2007 8:10:14 AM   
slavejali


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quote:

  the thing you want done a certain way should be done not out of fear of losing anything, but because its what your slave/submissive wants to do for their Master/Mistress because you want to obey and you want to do such out of love and/or respect.
 
Yes thats true...but within many D/s and M/s relationship there is a punishment and reward system set in place to one degree or another, its part of what makes our relationships different than vanilla. 
 
quote:

As for the collar, you are looking at it purely as an object - instead of seeing the symbol.  Until you see that - you will never comprehend what it means to some people.
 
Maybe its that I see symbolism in everything. Like the taking of the collar for a time is 'symbolic gesture' that the slave isnt living up to it, so it becomes a reminder of what they really want. I guess I just don't think any decision of the dominant should threaten the relationship once established, the groundwork is done, the trust established, you feel your with the right person for you, its all good...all there is left to do is submit to their decisions...and unless they say "leave", you're their slave, collar or not.


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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/24/2007 8:51:45 AM   
slaveish


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Status: offline 		I am owned but not collared. I will not be collared until I move to Master. I cannot comprehend his removal of my collar for punishment since it is symbolic of his pride, ownership, and acceptance of me. If he removed my collar, I would feel I'd lost his overall acceptance which, I believe, would feel like utter devastation. It would be a detriment to my self-worth as a slave and might (although I'm not certain) carry over into my vanilla self-esteem.

If I could compartmentalize the collar as merely an ornament (and I guess I could if I tried to) then it would mean nothing; but if a collar is supposed to mean nothing then I see no point in having one to begin with. In the discussions I've had with Master and my sister, however, I see a collar as something much more than a chunk of metal. Removing it would be akin to telling a UM "I don't love you but if you're good then maybe you can earn my love again someday."

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RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/24/2007 10:37:58 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Yes thats true...but within many D/s and M/s relationship there is a punishment and reward system set in place to one degree or another, its part of what makes our relationships different than vanilla. 
I think that you seem (to me) to be seeing things in absolutes.
 
In some Ds relationships there is punishment and reward but that doesnt define a Ds relationship from 'vanilla' - not in the slightest.  A Ds relationship does not have to contain BDSM at all.  One dominates, one submits - there need to be punishments, no fetish, no rewards, other than love(occasionally) and commitment.
Domination and submission is not punishment and reward.
Master slave is not punishment and reward it is Mastery and slavery - but some people choose to have BDSM within their relationship.
And as for SM - well that is as defined again by sadism and masochism.
 
You cannot define a Ds relationship simply by punishment and reward, nor can you say there are not vanilla relationships that do not contain punishment and discipline, because they do - but that doesn't make them a BDSM relationship.
 
A Ds relationship is Dominance and submission.  Everything else within it is determined by the individuals.
 
quote:

 guess I just don't think any decision of the dominant should threaten the relationship once established
It shouldnt threaten, because it shouldnt be used as a threat, but an action.  Therein lies the difference.
 
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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Vanilla ethics in D/s M/s - 5/24/2007 12:55:35 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		The only difference I find in the relationships is who has the authority and how much.

I've had the pleasure of meeting and befriending several M/S couples. The components that made up their relationship werent different then a vanilla or D/S relationship...just one person made decisions and gave orders regarding everything in the relationship, one person in the D/S relationships made decisions and gave order regarding things decided by the limits of the other, and in a vanilla, there is no line drawn in the sand as to has authority over what.

The D/S and M/S couples I have met act and function the same as the average vanilla couple. If you pay attention though, you can see who has the authority and who doesnt.

I dont understand what you mean by "vanilla based ethics". Ethics are ethics. Ethics play a part of any relationship. They represent the shared values that bring any two people together. Some people claim that shared values and ethics arent part of a M/S relationship. I find that to be false, because ultimately the shared values and ethics are what caused a slave to serve their loving and caring Master and not a Master who is an abusive, negolient asshole.

Bring me a slave who serves someone they feal is an abusive, negolient asshole and then I will say that clearly shared values and ethics arent a component of their relationship.

As far as why M/S relationships arent strong enough to survive past a Master's decision, the answer is because generally, a Master equates his power in the relationship to being able to end the relationship the instance a slave disobeys.

However, generally, this is a kind of one sided view. The slave can end the relationship as well if he or she wants so he or she has just as much power as the Master does. This is why I view a M/S relationship as simple who has the authority and not who has the power.

When someone ends a relationship because of disobedience, its because they value their authority more than they do the relationship.

Its much like cheating in the average vanilla relationship. People say "If you cheat on me, then I will leave you." They value someone being loyal to them over the relationship, just like many Master's value their authority over the relationship.

Can a relationship survive past willful disobedience? Sure. In the same way vanilla relationships survive past cheating. They realize it was a mistake, they sit down and communicate, forgive each other, and work towards making sure it never happens again.

Some Masters beleive that a relationship cant survive past willful disobedience, because if they dont end the relationship, then they have lost their power over the slave.

I find this to be false because, as I said before, both people have this power to leave the relationship and therefore the authority in the relationship is created by both people. If a slave trully regrets the disobedience and wants to obey, then the relationship can survive with the authority dynamic intact if the Master is big enough to get over someone disobeying him. Much in the same way a vanilla relationship can survive if one person trully regrets cheating and the other person can get over being cheated on.

However, if you disobey without any regret (much like cheating without any regret) then most likely, the relationship will grind to a halt (At least any relationship I am in). But if a Master is big enough to get past the disobedience being an assault to his authority and look at the circumstance and reasons behind it, then a relationship can be solid enough to survive a Master's decision just like a vanilla relationship can be strong enough to survive cheating =).

I'm sure some Masters will call me not a real Master for not releasing her...but thats really no different then certain vanilla guys telling someone they arent a real man because they didnt kick the bitch to the curve the instant she cheated on him.

For example, a slave is in a bad mood from PMS and tells me to piss off when I ask for coffee. This is willful disobedience and being the big ole super Master that I am, I should instantly and totally end the relationship. Personally, I dont think this is necessarily the case if we sit down and talk about why she did what she just did, she apologizes and make reprimands (threw punishment if I feal its necessary), and eventually makes up for her disobedience by getting me my coffee. The authority dynamic is still intact and I still am just as much in charge as before. The only difference is I got past my own ego over being disobeyed. People have this misconception that a M/S relationship is automatically totally different then a vanilla relationship. Its still, in the end, two people working together to make something work out right.

But..of course...if someone keeps cheating over and over again, its eventually going to bring the relationship to a halt =)





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(in reply to slavejali)
Profile   Post #: 40
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