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Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 2:36:29 AM

Copulo

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/3/2007
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If I had a tear for every female sub I have heard utter the words ‘my submission is not a weakness’ I would have me a river.
If I had a tear for every sub guy I heard say these words I would a half filled test tube.

I read these words from females on web boards and obviously not just on this site. I hear these words said in discussion groups and at munches.

What I am interested to know is why it seems to come far more from female subs than it does from male subs?
I am not a fem sub and as such I don’t get messages from people wanting to dominate me. Because I don’t get the messages I don’t know what is being said that makes so many female subs want to stand up and say ‘I am not weak’
Sometimes it feels as though many female subs are getting over defensive about why they are submissive.

I may start a flame war here so I apologize in advance to those I have already offended!
I do not think submission is a weakness btw!!

Post #: 1

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 2:55:43 AM

HeavansKeeper

Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline

For as every claim of "My submission is not a weakness" you probably see one post from a confused and lost submissive girl asking what people think about a scuzzbucket who wanted some cheap and easy fun. Dominant figures that align submissive with easy are partially to blame. I would imagine weakminded subs suffer from learned helplessness. They get told over and over that they should do the will of their Dom and begin to get confused in the frenzy of servitude. They have a moment of clarity when some douchebag has them dancing for his friends while he watches television. With the BDSM community supporting an underlying theory of "subs please Doms" with less focus on who is worthy to please, the female sub is taught to learn. Men will take advantage of that insanely deep desire to please.

The vanilla world is currently a place of women's lib. An ever growing movement of feminism (the equality of women and men, not the superiority, and NOT the feminist extremists) teaches girls and women to think "I'm strong and independent!" It's a grand theory, but when a young lady's heart pumps only to please, it contradicts the teachings. Chanting "My submission is not a weakness!" becomes a litany to seperate 'submissive' and 'weak'.

In short: Asshole men who confuse submission and weakness, and the sub's own insecurity in her inability to seperate the issues cause female subs to be more defensive about their nature.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to Copulo)

Post #: 2

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 2:56:51 AM

NakedGirlScout

Posts: 370
Joined: 1/10/2006
From: Toronto
Status: offline

I'm not sure Copulo but I think it's just one of those tired old cliches, same as "no players" and "I am not a doormat." People without imagination tend to write in cliches as they've seen others have written. Other than that I can't think of any reason.

(in reply to Copulo)

Post #: 3

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 3:14:07 AM

lateralist1

Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

Good post. Unfortunately it seems that women still think that they will land their man by allowing them to do pretty much anything to them. They invariably don't. Unless he is too lazy to go find someone who really does it for him. Some men will use anyone who is stupid enough to let them. And it's too damn easy for them. What they want is a challenge. However what happens in the end is if you are not right for one another then very little will keep you together anymore. Kids, money or inertia might.
Moving on from one partner to another before you have taken the time to find out if you could be right for one another is the name of the game. There is nothing wrong with sexual freedom but it has to be balanced with knowledge of basic human needs. All human beings need someone who gives a damn.

(in reply to NakedGirlScout)

Post #: 4

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 3:26:02 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

I believe a lot of it comes from some of the inane dominant profiles one sees here. Ones that say...You WILL drop to your knees now and serve me. Not to mention those idiotic emails that one gets that say the dom is going to be in town on such and such date...would you be available to serve? WTF? I think it's more a desire NOT to get those types of introductory emails. Of course, you get them anyway, so it doesn't do a bit of good.

(in reply to lateralist1)

Post #: 5

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 3:54:33 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

Maybe it has something to do with the whole womens' lib thing, that we're all meant to be strong and independent, and that those who are submissive perceive therefore that they might be letting the side down with their desires?

Guys meanwhile perhaps, know throughout their beings that they are regarded as strong and independent by others, even if they have just licked your shoes clean?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to bandit25)

Post #: 6

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 4:30:06 AM

earthycouple

Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Copulo

If I had a tear for every female sub I have heard utter the words ‘my submission is not a weakness’ I would have me a river.
If I had a tear for every sub guy I heard say these words I would a half filled test tube.

I read these words from females on web boards and obviously not just on this site. I hear these words said in discussion groups and at munches.

What I am interested to know is why it seems to come far more from female subs than it does from male subs?
I am not a fem sub and as such I don’t get messages from people wanting to dominate me. Because I don’t get the messages I don’t know what is being said that makes so many female subs want to stand up and say ‘I am not weak’
Sometimes it feels as though many female subs are getting over defensive about why they are submissive.

I may start a flame war here so I apologize in advance to those I have already offended!
I do not think submission is a weakness btw!!

I don't believe submission is a weakness either...and I disclaim this entire thing by saying nothing is absolute. None of my opinions here are meant to blanket and entire gender or group.

Hmmm......I have met sub men who feel they want to be weak. They want to be beaten into submission for atonement, for whatever things they think they did wrong in life, whether real or percieved. I turn these men away as quickly as they find me. I have no desire to do this.

I personally feel that it is "typical born in feelings" and of course life's stereotypes that men feel they should be strong and that women are perceived as weak and have something to prove. This started with caveman mentality yes? big burly caveman drags woman around by hair *grrr ugg Me Man you woman grrr*

Of course over years and decades and millenia times changes and our society accepts better than ever before that we can be anything in life we want to be. (Please don't turn this into a debate about acceptance because we all know this isn't universal yet....how I wish).

There are women (and I do feel more than men) who want to show their strength and take it as a personal attack when those cave men come back out to assert their universal power and try to take a woman by the hair and drag her off to his dungeon. In some instances I don't blame her. There are some dominants who are just so damn full of themselves and have that "Me Man you woman" mentality. (and this isn't just in this life either...it's in vanilla dating too....just watch any daytime tv talk show to see examples)

When a FemDom exerts this type of "full of herself" power over some males it seems to me that the males find this more inline with their "wants" to submit. vs. feeling as if the dominant is trying to break him down he's begging she does.

I believe that men who want to show their strength day to day don't fall into the submissive category to often. That is not to say a day to day dominant personality is not submissive....but they know they are submissive inside and want to free themselves of some of that strength. So the men who are submissive feel that giving away their day to day dominance is natural and don't feel an inherent need to be "strong".

Having said this....of course we all know naturally strong willed women (um hello, me) and we all know naturally weak willed men.

Now I'm really going to piss a bunch of people off when I say this: as a GENERAL rule men don't piss, bitch and whine as much as women do as a general rule (Again this is as much lifestyle as vanilla). So I can fill more rivers with whining women about ANY topic than I can men in same said topic. Yes yes yes....some men have their moments and some women don't fit this generalization at all...but come on....we can do a case study on these boards alone, can we not?

I personally applaud those men and women that find their way past stereotypes, feelings of guilt about going against the grain of their family, peers, church, whatever to become who they know they really are inside.

For examples: being born into a home where the opposite sex strongly and with an iron hand rules the roost and one breaks free to be a strong independant individual against all percieved odds. Or one who breaks free from their born gender to become the gender they feel inside to be true.

That's my take.

< Message edited by earthycouple -- 5/25/2007 4:33:14 AM >

_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to Copulo)

Post #: 7

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 4:31:40 AM

LadyIce

Posts: 406
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline

Can anyone tell me what submissive males mean when they tell you, they are not a doormat?
I have never cared for that expression either.
It seems very defensive and is usually uncalled for.

(in reply to Copulo)

Post #: 8

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 4:37:07 AM

HeavansKeeper

Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyIce

Can anyone tell me what submissive males mean when they tell you, they are not a doormat?
I have never cared for that expression either.
It seems very defensive and is usually uncalled for.

It means they expect the mutual respect of a D/s relationship. They exist to serve, but in turn they expect you, as Domme, to know what's best for them.

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

(in reply to LadyIce)

Post #: 9

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 4:37:59 AM

earthycouple

Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyIce

Can anyone tell me what submissive males mean when they tell you, they are not a doormat?
I have never cared for that expression either.
It seems very defensive and is usually uncalled for.

I believe this stems from *ahem*....dominants who try to assert power by taking everything from someone who doesn't want everything taken away. Either the person making the "I am not a doormat" statement is a bottom and is calling himself a sub or is a sub and is calling himself a slave. OR that dominant try to change who the person is....*inside his head he says...she claims she's a sub but damn it I'm man enough to change her to slave*

When I read someone is a sub but then I learn he doesn't want me to control anything he only wants to get tied up once in a while...if I start trying to control him...he's going to think I'm trying to walk all over him (doormat).

When I read someone is a slave but then I learn he has no desire for TPE and he only wants to submit for occassional times.....if I start trying to dictate his every move day in and day out.....he's going to think I'm trying to walk all over him (doormat).

Edited to include....again....no blankets or truisms here...just a potential reason why people say this

< Message edited by earthycouple -- 5/25/2007 4:39:52 AM >

_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to LadyIce)

Post #: 10

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 6:28:07 AM

Rose4Mistress

Posts: 162
Joined: 3/12/2007
Status: offline

To me, submission and weakness are two separate things. I submit because I want to, out of love and respect. It often takes a great force of will (not to mention physical effort) to thoroughly please a Dominant in anything. To give up your will and simply serve...that is the mark of true submission.
As for weakness...I am not weak. I'm a softball player, a runner and I lift weights. Pound for pound, I am very strong, stronger than most women, and stronger than some men.
I am not weak, but I am a sub. The two have no correllation for me. It seems that those women who go around shouting that their "submission is not a mark of weakness" are, as has been said, simply not strong enough in who they are to know the difference.

(in reply to Copulo)

Post #: 11

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 6:40:33 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

I think women say this a lot because there is a segment of the lifestyle who enjoys perpetuating the myth that subs are weak and can't protect themselves from the big bad domly types. It makes me sort of nuts, but we see it all of the time. The collars of protection keep this myth alive. Only when subs start acting like grownups will we be free of this sub = weak nonsense.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Copulo)

Post #: 12

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 7:25:28 AM

Copulo

Posts: 268
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline

Thanks, there’s some really good points here.
Earthycouple are you a psychologist by any chance? If so can I have some lessons please?!?!

What I find really odd and this is more so on the boards than at munches and parties, is that some fem subs are so highly competitive. Its as though they have to get this message out that they are a ‘twue submissive’ and they are the best thing since sliced bread even when they have a dominant and sometimes they will go to great lengths and even show aggression to try and prove this point.
Its very seldom you get that with male submissives.

It’s already been said that this is probably the same in many life situations. A woman often has to prove herself more so than a man and we have learnt to do that with such precision skill that we have become experts !!

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 13

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 8:49:38 PM

pixelslave

Posts: 1444
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyIce
Can anyone tell me what submissive males mean when they tell you, they are not a doormat?
I have never cared for that expression either.
It seems very defensive and is usually uncalled for.

I have a different view on what a submissive male means when he says he's not a doormat than what some of the others have posted and would like to share it for consideration.

To me, a doormat, represents an object that has no thoughts of it's own; is walked on and used until is is no longer needed, and then is discarded. As a submissive male, I have thoughts of value to contribute to the relationship that I'd hope my Mistress would appreciate and give proper consideration to. I have no desire to be sucked dry of what I have to offer in service to never have my "tank" refilled, then discarded when used up and empty. I do not wished to be "walked on" or taken advantage of simply because I'm labeled as a submissive. I do not wished to be abused by a dominant and will not tolerate such abuse again. A power exchange is one thing, abuse is another.

I wish to be valued as a person who has thoughts, feelings and ideas of my own and to have it recognized that I can use them to contribute to the relationship for the benefit of us both. I also want to be treated with respect for having the strength to give up the areas of control of my life that I have agreed to with my Mistress. Thus, I am far more than a doormat. That is my reason for using the analogy on the few times when I've felt the need to use it.

- pixel

_____________________________

Chivalry isn't dead! It's for those who have it in their hearts & are willing to be taught. It's a way of life, a code of honor; this one's armor still needs some polishing!

(in reply to LadyIce)

Post #: 14

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/25/2007 9:15:30 PM

undergroundsea

Posts: 2400
Joined: 6/27/2004
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyIce
Can anyone tell me what submissive males mean when they tell you, they are not a doormat?
I have never cared for that expression either.
It seems very defensive and is usually uncalled for.

I think it means that trampling is not an area of interest!

Seriously, I have not used the term but it is not unimaginable that it might be heard from submissive men. One reason is that submission is often mistaken for weakness or timidness--I have had to make this dinstinction countless times in BDSM forums! Also, I see a greater tendency amongst submissive men to say that while they enjoy submission, in the vanilla world they are dominant. I wonder if this statement is driven by unease they feel for taking a role that goes against what they feel society defines for them. If so, I think a statement about not being a doormat could be driven by similar thoughts.

I think whether the statement about not being a doormat is directed at the other person depends on the context. If it is said in response to words or action of the other person, then it is likely directed at the other person. If it is simply said, it may be not so much a defensive statement as one driven by a want to not be perceived to hold a quality thought to be unattractive.

Cheers,

Sea

(in reply to LadyIce)

Post #: 15

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/26/2007 8:57:17 AM

TexasMaam

Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline

Copulo,

Since I know of too many Doms who are nothing more than abusive jerks, and way too many Dommes who are just psychotics, I'm quite certain that the banner 'my submission is NOT a weakness' is meant to deter those kind of BDSM predators from communicating with the sub. But then, what do I know?

TM

_____________________________

~ My opinions are not necessarily those of the management... ~

(in reply to Copulo)

Post #: 16

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/26/2007 10:08:38 AM

earthycouple

Posts: 4462
Joined: 2/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Copulo

Thanks, there’s some really good points here.
Earthycouple are you a psychologist by any chance? If so can I have some lessons please?!?!

lol. Nope...I simply try to understand things from as many vantage points as I can before I start injecting knee jerk thoughts. I don't always accomplish that...as noted in any post where I may be a bit inflammatory...but I try.

*S* thanks.

_____________________________

D~

Seeking, searching, hoping, living, loving, jumping. So what's new with you?

(in reply to Copulo)

Post #: 17

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/26/2007 10:30:39 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Wonderful points made. Earthy, very good look at possibilities!

Mostly, I tend to agree with LadyEllen. I think it stems from the whole issue of women being equal and chosing this lifestyle, rather than following the tide. We've all heard the generalizations. Women are the weaker sex, etc. The classic rise above the 'traditional' household where the man has the final say in matters. (Please understand that this is a concept from a different era.)

Let's face it. Women fought hard and long for equality. Now, some chose not to have it. This might put some on the automatic defensive, because some don't understand the choice they have made. After hearing it over and over again, and having to respond to it repeatedly, might change their tone a bit from explanatory to defensive.

Those of Us who have been around a bit know that submission is anything but weak. It has nothing to do with gender of the submissive at all. There's a great strength in it. I know I couldn't do it.

(in reply to earthycouple)

Post #: 18

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/26/2007 2:23:18 PM

Unrepentant1

Posts: 283
Joined: 8/25/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Wonderful points made. Earthy, very good look at possibilities!

Mostly, I tend to agree with LadyEllen. I think it stems from the whole issue of women being equal and chosing this lifestyle, rather than following the tide. We've all heard the generalizations. Women are the weaker sex, etc. The classic rise above the 'traditional' household where the man has the final say in matters. (Please understand that this is a concept from a different era.)

Let's face it. Women fought hard and long for equality. Now, some chose not to have it. This might put some on the automatic defensive, because some don't understand the choice they have made. After hearing it over and over again, and having to respond to it repeatedly, might change their tone a bit from explanatory to defensive.

Those of Us who have been around a bit know that submission is anything but weak. It has nothing to do with gender of the submissive at all. There's a great strength in it. I know I couldn't do it.

Well said!

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 19

RE: Overly defensive submission - 5/28/2007 4:40:56 PM

planomaid

Posts: 77
Joined: 10/4/2004
Status: offline

I can't speak for the women, but I will add my $.02 here. I see nothing wrong with the statement "I'm not a doormat". To me it is implying that the male making that statement is saying he has a lot to offer, he has a brain, opinions, desires, needs, etc. The fact that he wants to submit (or needs to, depending on the person) is not coupled with the concept of a doormat. There are those submissives out there who want nothing more than to be an obedient vessel, doing nothing without a command from their dominant. And there are, of course, dominants out there who want doormats who desperately desire to function in such a way.

Personally its not for me. I think I fall somewhere between the want to/need to submit - but I don't do it to just anyone. I like to think that a good domme would have no issue with earning my trust and respect as I would expect to do with her. Regardelss of where you are going in your lifestyle, I think 99.9% of the people here are realistic enough to realize that the "real world" out there doesn't recognize slavery or collars or any of this ilk. Very few of us can earn a living, let alone pay our bills and mortgages with the lifestyle (with the obvious exception of pro-dommes).

I think it says a lot to the character of the person who is brave enough to say this, knowing that its possible some will take it as a sign of "oh, you aren't really submissive - you have an opinion!".

(in reply to Unrepentant1)

Post #: 20

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