RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True

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Real0ne -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 5:57:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Naw, that's okay. If you want to look for it, go ahead, I'll be glad to explain it. Still, the man wasn't even alive to refute the theories you're claiming he did. That, in and of itself, should say something. He may've done some guess work- like we might guess about warp-drives in Star Trec-esque space ships, but, it's just guess work and fanstascy until science catches up. Which it has, in this case. well thats the proble, science still has not caught up and its 100 years later. Teslas response to all the scientists in general at that time, einstein included, was "Their time is now, mine is for the future which is for where i have worked" They still have not scratched the surface of his work 100 years later LOL. oh and you are correct about limitless power which is one of the things t4esla talked about :) oh yeh and you shouldnt ridicule the man who has close to 800 patents and every invention he ever made was done completely in his head then produced from the drawings in his head and every invention over that 30 year period worked first time out of the box. How many inventions have you done so far? Fantasies? With that track record for success you are only fooling yourself!

Real0ne -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 6:00:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Ah, yes... The Book of Rufus: Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it. Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good? Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant. easy to have a love hate relationship with that one LOL

CuriousLord -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 6:02:33 PM)
You certainly do idolize Tesla, Real.

Real0ne -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 6:05:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord You certainly do idolize Tesla, Real. Yep wait till you see the military weapons, (if they ever get them working), bnased on teslas work, you wont be poking fun of him them, you will be to busy cleaning your panties out LOL Here just for kicks, if you want to have some fun hey... Tesla built a working model of his power transmitter. k.... He could transmit power at next to no transmission loss to power enterprise (battleship that is), while it was on a run in india. Fantasy? hardly. frankly i doubt you even have a clue, i would be surpised if you did, but be my guest.... So without looking think fast how could he do it? (i can just see the keyboard smoking and google being overloaded) LOL

CuriousLord -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 6:06:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord I'm sorry, but with me, you're going to have to cite a reason you believe something to be untrue.. just randomly saying it doesn't make it so. Therein lies the fundamental premise of this thread. Faith. He can randomly say it is so, because, for him it is so. He does not need to provide proof, he can be as snarky as he wants, whatever, but we are dealing with a mind that is closed to the negation of it's Faith. I dont recall the passage exactly, but there is a statement where somebody refers to Jesus making the statement "I am your rock and your castle." I read the bible a long time ago. It was interesting. Had some nice stories. Had some interesting lessons. Had a lot of interesting lessons that worked in the context of the times it was written in, but not so much relevance to modern day society. What I have always found curious is how many people who profess to me that the bible is Truth, upon being questioned, indicate that they have never read the book. They rely on the interpretation provided to them by others, as well as a deeply felt Faith, as evidence to substantiate their beliefs. If it works for them, I say they should go with it. What upsets me is when they try to inflict it on me. Well spoken. This is what I wonder, though. Should one believe in faith, and this one considers faith in earnest- either through will or coercion- would one be likely, or able, to find flaw in faith? Or is faith, when taken deeply, crippling to the point of being unable to think outside of it?

Sinergy -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 6:18:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Well spoken. This is what I wonder, though. Should one believe in faith, and this one considers faith in earnest- either through will or coercion- would one be likely, or able, to find flaw in faith? Or is faith, when taken deeply, crippling to the point of being unable to think outside of it? Thank you. I am not sure I understand the second paragraph, however. I am not sure "faith" is something that one believes in. Bear with me. Believing in something assumes that something exists outside of oneself. (I) <- believing in -> (That). The act of believing I tend to think is an abstraction of one and one's own ideas and universe. I tend to be fairly dubious of people's ability to make these sorts of abstractions for the most part. What level of consciousness is required for a person to be able to frame the concept of breathing or screwing or whatever? Assuming that faith as something that is intrinsic to the person's consciousness, is it fair to characterize it as a belief? Would it be possible to view the abstraction of one's intrinsic nature with a critical eye and/or find flaws in it? Is it crippling? I dont know. In a sense I am somewhat jealous of the deeply religious. Seems that it would be so much easier to not have a mind filled with abstractions of abstractions of abstractions. Perhaps I am the crippled one in this picture. Sinergy

dcnovice -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 6:23:51 PM)
quote: you think things can travel faster than light now? Gossip can.

Sinergy -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 6:34:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: you think things can travel faster than light now? Gossip can. Light also slows down when shining through a supercooled medium. Sinergy

Real0ne -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 6:36:58 PM)
can a mind even function without abstractiing one's own ideas from the universe they understand? Isnt that simply part of the thinking process? The case of the mirror is always nice when talking about these things. It seems amny people have a spoked wheel where all roads take you to the center but often times simply block out anything that does not fit into their unioverse so i am not so sure they do not have their own personal plagues..

Sinergy -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 6:43:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne can a mind even function without abstractiing one's own ideas from the universe they understand? Do you think the sitting President or Saddam or any number of other people ever stopped to think that there might be a flaw in their reasoning? That is an abstraction; they reason something, but then consider that there might be something which contradicts their ideas outside of their consciousness. Although I tend to agree with you about proven inability to function on the part of the President, et al's, mind. Sinergy

dcnovice -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 6:49:05 PM)
<fast reply> I've long argued that no one on Earth takes the Bible literally. One can't for example, believe two conflicting creation accounts at the same time, and I've yet to hear of anyone who plucked out her eye because it was leading her to sin. What happens, I think, is that there are differering degrees of honesty about the amount of interpretation that the Bible requires. Our fundamentalist friends seem to be in major denial about the need to interpret Scripture (though they actually do so), while I know from firsthand experience that Catholics and Episcopalians are far more comfortable with looking at the text in a critical way. I tend to look at the Bible as the collected journals of the faith community--written in a mindset quite different from my own but filled with rich insights that reward patient seeking and careful thought. A favorite example is Exodus 20:5b--"I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me." We came across that line in Bible study, and everyone was aghast. What kind of God, we all wondered, punishes kids for their (grand)parents' sins?! It didn't help that our commentary offered the lame argument that this was comparatively merciful, given that other cultures at the time believed in curses that afflicted families forever. I figured this was one of those verses destined for my ever-growing scrap heap. Years later, though, I learned a bit about family-system theory. I was intrigued to learn that one person's dysfunction (alcoholism, say) can indeed affect several generations. Shorn of the punitive imagery, that verse I'd carelessly discarded actually offered a spot-on insight into family process. That ancient writer was onto something! Suddenly I found myself marveling at the writer's keen insight. In the same way, I've been amazed at how the author(s) of the Psalms perfectly described clinical depression. None of this proves that the Bible is "true," I realize, nor am I sure there's a God. But I do think the Good Book has some interesting things to say, if we're willing to sift for them.

Real0ne -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 6:49:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne can a mind even function without abstractiing one's own ideas from the universe they understand? Do you think the sitting President or Saddam or any number of other people ever stopped to think that there might be a flaw in their reasoning? That is an abstraction; they reason something, but then consider that there might be something which contradicts their ideas outside of their consciousness. Although I tend to agree with you about proven inability to function on the part of the President, et al's, mind. Sinergy i read that like when ya look at an equation and go through a series of reduction to sort of speak get it to its lowest common denominator. They have an agenday, of course not.

Real0ne -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 6:54:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice A favorite example is Exodus 20:5b--"I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me." We came across that line in Bible study, and everyone was a aghast. What kind of God, we all wondered, punishes kids for their (grand)parents' sins?! It didn't help that our commentary offered the lame argument that this was comparatively merciful, given that other cultures at the time believed in curses that afflicted families without ends. I figured this was one of those verses destined for my ever-growing scrap heap. Years later, though, I learned a bit about family-system theory. I was intrigued to learn that one person's dysfunction (alcoholism, say) can indeed affect several generations. Shorn of the punitive imagery, that verse I'd carelessly discarded actually offered a spot-on insight into family process. That ancient writer was onto something! Suddenly I found myself marveling at the writer's keen insight. In the same way, I've been amazed at how the author(s) of the Psalms perfectly described clinical depression. zactly, in summary children pay for not only their own sins but that of the parents. maybe it takes 4 generations for people to wise up? Oh and its not like some kids do not beat the odds, because they do, however all to often they just exchange one sin for another little do thy know... LOL

KeirasSecret -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 7:28:11 PM)
quote: Later, when you consider the nature of reality, you find that science and religion conflict. Many, many times, religion's adapted, trying to make these conflicts go away by yielding its own nature- trying to evolve to avoid people realizing it's untrue. But, in the end, it conflicts with things that have been found scientifically, and is thus anti-scientific. You would have to point out to me where you are talking about. Are you referring to the Bible, or the dogma of a specific religion? I do not connect myself with any religious organization, but still have faith in the basis of religion, and believe that the bible is a sort of recourse manual to navigate through life. If I can take the teachings, put them to practical use (as they were intended), and have them work, why would I discount parts or all, just because, we as humans, can not prove them scientifically? There are many parts of my life and others, from what I hear, that can not be explained scientifically, yet I know it happened. It appears to me, that I am expected to believe it is all by chance. Which would imply to me, neither I, nor any other person, have purpose. I find that hard to believe.

dcnovice -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 7:30:36 PM)
quote: the percentage of Americans who believe the Bible should be taken literally is LOWER than it was decades ago. Oh, thank God.

dcnovice -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 7:32:53 PM)
quote: Later, when you consider the nature of reality, you find that science and religion conflict. But aren't some scientists religious? Francis Collins comes to mind.

curiousexplorer -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 8:06:13 PM)
"...does this mean that education is the enemy of faith? Or just the enemy of excessive faith? " Knowledge is the enemy of faith. The more you know and understand the less you have to make up and believe. God has always been the easy answer for things people don't, or never could, understand. Having that easy answer saves them saying I don't know. "Either way, I believe it is man, who is the enemy of faith; not education." People are the creators and nuturers of faith. "Since religion is anti-scientific I disagree, I believe it is misinterpretation, that makes people believe it is anti-scientific. " You can disagree all you like, but you are wrong. Religion is anti scientific. "but to most people faith is not a one-time decision. " Rubbish. To most people it's not even a one time decision. Most people simply follow the faith they were raised in, there is no thought or decision making process. "It is a continual process, with experience directly affecting the strength of that faith. " Actually faith is usually used to cover up experiences and possible lessons in favour of maintaining the illusions one was raised with. "As for myself, i am probably best described as a humanist. This means, at least to me, that i have faith in the possibilities of humanity in general and humans specifically." I wonder if this is true, or if you are just a feelgood humanist? Do you have faith in the full possibilities of humanity, the full spectrum of human nature, warts and all, or just the best end? Don't worry, I already know. One is faith in humanity and the other is observation of human nature. "Sometimes, I wonder if I would've just been happier believing it, even if I no longer find it to be true. " Ignorance truly is bliss. "A very reasonable post but the question arises why after say100 years of universal education , in developed western nations at least, religious feelings and viewpoints have not withered away ? " For starters 100 years is not many in the grand scheme of things. It took many hundreds of years to get this far. And lets not forget that religions tend to keep the masses down, dumb and docile. Christianity alone has taken us at least 500 years behind were we could be, socially and technologically. And today intelligent people go to unis, get jobs, do research and further the education of the species. They don't get burnt, stoned or banished. We've actually come a long way. The entire population hasn't reached great heights, but at least they've stopped killing off those who can. "For 400/500 years a highly educated elite has existed many of whom were devout believers. " Because religion kept a monopoly on education. Anyone who wanted an education couldn't avoid the church, and in many cases anyone who wanted to live believed, or said they did. Since you like pulling things from history, it might be a good idea to learn about those things, or history in general? "Since a good deal of it is virtually the only recorded history" Many cultures recorded their history, which is why we know the bible is fictional. The earth itself keeps records, which is another reason we know the bible is fictional. "i am not discarding the all the wall writings of various cultures and pictorial recordings but they simply are not as extensive as the bible is" The bible is much more made up than extensive. Also any factual references are heavily biased away from the facts. "this assumes science knows all there is to know past present and future." No, what he was saying is science is the best tool we have for investigating the world. That scientific knowledge today is much more reliable and effective than archaic beliefs from long dead men. "But aren't some scientists religious?" Not really. many were raised that way, some can't say they don't know when they reach their limits, but most will throw away a belief in favour of a fact with no hesitation. Their belief is lip service, if that. There are religious people who claim to be scientists, but who ignore scientific principles to boost their faith, these people are not scientists in any sense of the word. Religion = fear and ignorance.

dcnovice -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 8:09:46 PM)
quote: Christianity alone has taken us at least 500 years behind were we could be, socially and technologically. What's your evidence for this statement?

KeirasSecret -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 8:22:49 PM)
Religion = fear and ignorance. What do you purpose I am afraid of that having faith in religion would change for me?

MsPoetress -> RE: One Third of Americans Say Bible is Literally True (5/25/2007 8:24:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Christianity alone has taken us at least 500 years behind were we could be, socially and technologically. What's your evidence for this statement? I too am curious on what you base this statement on.

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