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Level -> Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 4:58:27 AM)

Obama offers universal health care plan
By MIKE GLOVER, Associated Press Writer 17 minutes ago


 
Seeking to add heft to his presidential bid, Democrat Barack Obama (news, bio, voting record) is offering a sweeping plan that would provide every citizen a means to have health coverage and calls on government, businesses and consumers to share the costs of the program.

Obama said putting in place universal health coverage has been debated for decades, but the time has finally come to act. He said his plan could save the average consumer $2,500 a year and bring health care to all.

"The time has come for universal, affordable health care in America," Obama said in remarks prepared for delivery at the unveiling of his plan Tuesday in Iowa City.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070529/ap_on_el_pr/obama_health



MellowSir -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 5:11:51 AM)

Don't be fooled into thinking that Obama will meet his campaign promises, I can't even remember the last president that did. Politicians will promise everything yet deliver little, and why should they, once they're in high office the common man can't reach them nor affect them....promises promises 



lockedaway -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 5:19:12 AM)

Great...just great.  So Obama wants there to be some mediocre, universal health care program that causes a HUGE increase in taxes for people and crippling contributions for employers.  We get nothing from the government that we don't have to pay through the nose for.  I was in London and I asked about how good their universal health care program was and my hosts all had private insurance.  Now why would they have private insurance in addition to what the government provided?  Obviously because the health care they were able to obtain under their private insurance was worth the increased expense.



LadyEllen -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 5:24:50 AM)

To many of us it always seems strange that a country like the US does not have some form of national health service, or at least that many states would have introduced a state health service.

How ours in the UK is funded is by way of taxation, with all services thereafter meant to be free at point of delivery. At least meant to be - because in reality, the cost of providing universal health care is enormous, and outstrips the funding from taxation which is available for the purpose. In practice we have had to introduce charges at delivery for dentistry, for the fulfilment of prescriptions, for spectacles and in many other areas.

Everyone pays in to the NHS (national health service), but it is not everyone who benefits and not everyone chooses to use it. The way in which the service is organised means that there is often what is known as a postcode lottery regarding what services are available, where and when. Live in the wrong place and you can wait months for treatment. A series of Conservative governments from 1979 to 1997 seriously starved the service of funding - including the training of new doctors and nurses, which despite huge increases since Labour took power, have never been overcome. As a result of this, the wealthier here now use private medical services, which are far more efficient but of course are only dealing with patients and conditions which they select - leaving the NHS to deal with more complex and more difficult and expensive to treat cases.

There are several main issues though that affect the performance of the NHS; the first is a large number of people who do not contribute in the form of taxation to its costs. Second is that we have an aging population which is living longer and therefore requires more treatment than ever was anticipated. Third is that we have greater ability to diagnose and treat a far wider range of conditions year by year. Fourth is that the equipment and medicines required for treatment is becoming ever more expensive as new developments take place.

The great advantage of a national health service is that it takes care of those too poor to afford treatment - and takes into account thereby that ill health often prefigures poverty, and that the poorer tend because of their less ample lifestyle to be less well.

The message I would give then, is that yes its necessary for the US to be able to provide universal health care, but that it should be well aware of the pitfalls and problems which others have experienced already in getting to that aim, and avoid them as far as possible.

E




Lordandmaster -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 7:02:18 AM)

I always have to scratch my head when I read reactions like this one, because, dollar for dollar, we have the crappiest health-care system in the world.  Every other advanced nation has better life-expectancy and infant-mortality statistics than we do.  You can look it up.  We're comparable to something like Peru.

All these other countries all have some form of nationalized health care, too.  The only people here who wouldn't benefit are corporations like Blue Cross.  "Increased expense"?  Any economist will tell you that nationalized health care would be much cheaper overall.  Health-insurance premiums in the U.S. are outrageous.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Great...just great.  So Obama wants there to be some mediocre, universal health care program that causes a HUGE increase in taxes for people and crippling contributions for employers.  We get nothing from the government that we don't have to pay through the nose for.  I was in London and I asked about how good their universal health care program was and my hosts all had private insurance.  Now why would they have private insurance in addition to what the government provided?  Obviously because the health care they were able to obtain under their private insurance was worth the increased expense.



KatyLied -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 7:03:44 AM)

How does universal health care affect workers who already have access to good health insurance?  Is there a chance this would cause employers to downgrade health care converage?  I would hate to see that happen.



DommeChains -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 8:15:38 AM)

At least it is being discussed.  The health care system in this country is dying a messy painful death and needs a radical overhaul.  The reality of it is we are already paying pretty steep taxes nationwide and still almost 40% of working adults lack even basic health care coverage.

Personally I would rather pay taxes than be nickeled and dimed to death with ever rising co pays and deductibles for which I receive less and less preventive care each year and more restrictions on access to specialists and effective medications and treatments to include alternative health care.



philosophy -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 8:25:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

How does universal health care affect workers who already have access to good health insurance?  Is there a chance this would cause employers to downgrade health care converage?  I would hate to see that happen.


...no offence Katy, but isn't this attitude the equivilant of saying 'I'm alright Jack'?..........



KatyLied -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 8:29:22 AM)

No, not at all.  I work full-time, health coverage is part of the benefits I receive, along with wages and retirement.  I think everyone should have coverage, but I'm not so stupid not to question how it may affect me.  I hate to think that some people will end up with worse coverage as a result of it.  I'd like to be informed, so I ask.



philosophy -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 8:34:17 AM)

Fair enough Katy.......but should good health care be a matter of having the right employment or just a right? If universal health care in the US is scuppered because those with health coverage don't want their plans devalued then that would be a tragedy.



Archer -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 8:37:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I always have to scratch my head when I read reactions like this one, because, dollar for dollar, we have the crappiest health-care system in the world.  Every other advanced nation has better life-expectancy and infant-mortality statistics than we do.  You can look it up.  We're comparable to something like Peru.

[


In relpy to the Infant Mortality rates lets take a second look.

The primary reason Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than the United States is that the United States is a world leader in an odd category -- the percentage of infants who die on their birthday. In any given year in the United States anywhere from 30-40 percent of infants die before they are even a day old.
Why? Because the United States also easily has the most intensive system of emergency intervention to keep low birth weight and premature infants alive in the world. The United States is, for example, one of only a handful countries that keeps detailed statistics on early fetal mortality -- the survival rate of infants who are born as early as the 20th week of gestation.
How does this skew the statistics? Because in the United States if an infant is born weighing only 400 grams and not breathing, a doctor will likely spend lot of time and money trying to revive that infant. If the infant does not survive -- and the mortality rate for such infants is in excess of 50 percent -- that sequence of events will be recorded as a live birth and then a death.
In many countries, however, (including many European countries) such severe medical intervention would not be attempted and, moreover, regardless of whether or not it was, this would be recorded as a fetal death rather than a live birth. That unfortunate infant would never show up in infant mortality statistics.

http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/000019.html




caitlyn -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 8:41:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DommeChains
At least it is being discussed.  The health care system in this country is dying a messy painful death and needs a radical overhaul.


This really hits the mark in my view. It isn't going to hurt anyone to have a candid discussion about a system that many think isn't working very well. No matter who is elected, they aren't going to be able to ram something through on their own ... so we really don't need to knee-jerk about any specific plan.
 
When you see responses that already trash the idea, before we have even discussed it fully ... you have to wonder if these people are against "it", before they even know what the final "it" will be.



KatyLied -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 8:44:28 AM)

I would like to think that as a county it is possible to take of the needs of the citizenry.  I know that is a lofty ideal.  I know that I would be upset if I had to take what would amount to a pay cut at a job I've worked in for 10 years.  That is my reality, I work hard to take care of my needs.  I don't feel bad for feeling that way.  I don't know what the answer is.



philosophy -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 8:51:02 AM)

....i don't think you should feel guilty Katy....but perhaps, alongside a switch to universal health care in the US, there ought to be a parallel plan to convert health benefits from the workplace into pay rises.



Archer -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 8:53:53 AM)

The false conclussion is that if someone is against Government provided healthcare for all, they are against affordable healthcare.

Most of the people I now who are anti "Universal Healthcare" are against it based on the fact that they do not believe the government will do the promised job for the promised cost, with anywhere near reasonable quality.

Consistantly proposed entitlement programs tripple their projected costs within less than the first 10 years of their existance.
Medicare.
Or they deliver product far less than most people feel is acceptable
VA Hospitals

With those two precedents it is not hard to see where they lost their trust in the government providing anything.




KatyLied -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 8:54:45 AM)

I would be happy if a move to universal health care would not diminish existing coverage for workers.  Honestly I hate the thought, especially of children and elderly and those with serious medical conditions not having access to health care.  It is a bad situation.  No one should be without, because regardless of how healthy you are, you never know what can happen, I learned this last year when I had to have surgery.  But to fail in taking care of the needest segment in our society, well it doesn't speak well of us.



selfbnd411 -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 8:56:20 AM)

Lemme guess...nobody else clicked on the article and read the whole thing before posting? [;)]

"Obama's plan retains the private insurance system but injects additional money into the system to pay for expanding coverage. It would also create a National Health Insurance Exchange to monitor insurance companies in offering the coverage.

Those who can't afford coverage would get a subsidy on a sliding scale depending on their income, and virtually all businesses would have to share in the cost of coverage for their workers. The plan that would be offered would be similar to the one covering members of Congress."



Archer -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 9:12:36 AM)

I'll wait for the actual plan to be reveiled as promised Today in Iowa City.
Then rather than the spin I'll read the plan itself.

But at least Obama is putting the plan out there gotta give him points for that.

BTW a quick chec of his campaign website, and I didn't find his plan there, only his statements of what is wrong and what he sees as big issues in Healthcare.

The Plan has not made it to the site yet it seems.
Does not bode well for him in my estimation.
If I were unveiling a plan for the nation on healthcare then it would have been coded and ready to be linked and the hour it was announced it would be on the website.



LadyEllen -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 9:12:43 AM)

This is how I look at what it costs each worker to provide the welfare state in the UK - health service, unemployment benefits etc

In the UK, employees pay 9% of income as what is called National Insurance - this is meant to pay for the welfare state (though it doesnt get anywhere near doing that, I'm sure). This is topped up with an employer's contribution of 11% of income. The average salary here being c. USD 50,000-00 per annum, this amount to USD 4.5k (employee NI) and USD 5.5k (employer NI) per worker on average.

After that, most people pay around 20% income tax on the remainder. Taking our USD 50k per annum, it becomes 45.5k after national insurance contributions, then after 20% income tax USD 36,400-00, or 72.8% of where we started at gross. 27.2% has been lost to tax at source.

From the 36.4k we are going to pay 17.5% value added tax (a form of sales tax) on most items we buy. On fuel, cigarettes, alcohol and many other items, we are going to pay additional tax in one form or another. Overall as a guesstimate, one could say that another 25% of the 36.4k goes in taxes on purchases or USD 9.1k.

Our total tax burden per worker on average then is USD 22.7k per annum out of a gross USD 50k; 45.4% of income. In addition to this is an additional cost of USD 5.5k paid by the employer. Of course, not all of this tax goes towards paying for the health service, but hopefully it will give a cost comparison of the difference in taxation, of having such a system.

What the US must decide, is whether it is prepared to pay the levels of personal taxation which we in Europe do, in order to provide the health service under discussion?

E



farglebargle -> RE: Obama offers universal health care plan (5/29/2007 9:15:06 AM)

How far did HillaryCare get? Since the Insurance companies don't want it, it'll never happen.




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