What exactly IS old guard???

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

What exactly IS old guard???

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> What exactly IS old guard???

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 9:33:54 AM

Arastella

Posts: 262
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline

I have read brief descriptions that don't give me a good idea, and long descriptions that make no sense to me. Could someone explain to me what a BDSM relationship involved in "Old Guard" entails?

Profile

Post #: 1

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 9:47:22 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_109/mpage_2/key_old%252Cguard/tm.htm#1172

post #36

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Arastella)

Profile

Post #: 2

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 9:56:16 AM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

http://www.vanilla-not.com/reallife/oldguard.html

_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Arastella)

Profile

Post #: 3

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 10:10:44 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Every time this subject comes up it makes me chuckle, because many claim to be "An Old Guard Master", obviously unaware of what it means to have truly been one.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to KatyLied)

Profile

Post #: 4

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 10:33:04 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

(in reply to Arastella)

Profile

Post #: 5

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 10:48:46 AM

MistressNoName

Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

This is the most comprehensive attempt, that I've seen, at putting "Old Guard" in some sort of historical perspective: http://www.evilmonk.org/A/oldguard.cfm - this is part of Ambrosio's collections, one of Guy Baldwin's articles. Unfortunately, many of the links at vanilla-not.com are no longer functioning. This is the link to Ambrosio's home page: http://www.evilmonk.org/A/menu.cfm - This site contains numerous articles and resources about the world of BDSM, with several articles about "Old Guard."

Hope that's helpful.

MNN

< Message edited by MistressNoName -- 6/1/2007 10:50:10 AM >

(in reply to KatyLied)

Profile

Post #: 6

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 10:58:51 AM

SerenityBlue

Posts: 3
Joined: 11/6/2005
Status: offline

Did she actually claim to be old guard??? Don't think she did.

(in reply to MistressNoName)

Profile

Post #: 7

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 11:12:18 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SerenityBlue
Did she actually claim to be old guard??? Don't think she did.

I'm guessing you meant this to be in response to Katy and not MistressNoName.

Katy clearly stated that she was merely making a comment on the topic of Old Guard itself, she didn't direct it towards Arastella at all.

If you brought up a topic about asparagus and Katy had said "I think it's funny how everyone steams asparagus when the best way is to grill it" would you have then responded by saying "Did I say I was asparagus?"

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SerenityBlue)

Profile

Post #: 8

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 11:24:34 AM

TPEOwner

Posts: 73
Joined: 9/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arastella

I have read brief descriptions that don't give me a good idea, and long descriptions that make no sense to me. Could someone explain to me what a BDSM relationship involved in "Old Guard" entails?

It means absolutely nothing. It's mostly used by misinformed or insecure dominants to try to impress naive submissives that their way is better than everyone elses way. At least 99% of what you hear about old guard is pure fiction.

(in reply to Arastella)

Profile

Post #: 9

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 11:29:00 AM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arastella

I have read brief descriptions that don't give me a good idea, and long descriptions that make no sense to me. Could someone explain to me what a BDSM relationship involved in "Old Guard" entails?

A whole lotta bullshit.

The "Old Guard" is a specific time period (post WW2 - early 50s) where the SM/Leather scene was emerging specifically in the gay/lesbian communities. Thats all.

People nowadays sloppily ascribe the 70s to being the Old Guard period, or all sorts of protocols that may have been followed by an informal or formal group as being an "Old Guard protocol."

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to Arastella)

Profile

Post #: 10

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 11:43:12 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

Katy clearly stated that she was merely making a comment on the topic of Old Guard itself, she didn't direct it towards Arastella at all.

Thank you LA. That was indeed a general comment, about many who make the claim and have no flipping clue what they are talking about.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Profile

Post #: 11

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 11:45:28 AM

MistressNoName

Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TPEOwner

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arastella

I have read brief descriptions that don't give me a good idea, and long descriptions that make no sense to me. Could someone explain to me what a BDSM relationship involved in "Old Guard" entails?

It means absolutely nothing. It's mostly used by misinformed or insecure dominants to try to impress naive submissives that their way is better than everyone elses way. At least 99% of what you hear about old guard is pure fiction.

Wow. Incredible that in 3 sentences you can discount some 50+ years of history. Wow.

MNN

(in reply to TPEOwner)

Profile

Post #: 12

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 11:51:15 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

If doms would just learn to say things like "I enjoy some Old Guard type protocols". That's what they should be saying. Don't say you are an "Old Guard Master." There is a history and to assume that you are something you aren't is disrespectful.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to MistressNoName)

Profile

Post #: 13

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 11:59:30 AM

MistressNoName

Posts: 664
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arastella

I have read brief descriptions that don't give me a good idea, and long descriptions that make no sense to me. Could someone explain to me what a BDSM relationship involved in "Old Guard" entails?

A whole lotta bullshit.

The "Old Guard" is a specific time period (post WW2 - early 50s) where the SM/Leather scene was emerging specifically in the gay/lesbian communities. Thats all.

People nowadays sloppily ascribe the 70s to being the Old Guard period, or all sorts of protocols that may have been followed by an informal or formal group as being an "Old Guard protocol."

C~

"Old Guard" refers to a period of time. "Old Guard" refers to specific protocols. "Old Guard" refers to a culture, a way of thinking and a way of life. Hardly what I would call "a whole lotta bullshit." "Old Guard" is a designation that some modern day kinksters have coined and which has become generally accepted throughout the BDSM community to refer to that period of time, that culture, that way of thinking, those protocols, that way of life. Seriously, start off with Guy Baldwin's article and go from there, if you are curious at all to learn about this branch of our history.

MNN

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

Profile

Post #: 14

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 12:22:55 PM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

Old Guard has been used and miss used as a term for the entire time I have been involved in BDSM and the Leather Community. The original WWII vets who started what became the Leather sub culture, would not have been Old Guard when they started, there was nothing old to guard.

The idea is that there are some folks who can trace their traditions directly or indirectly back to the early days of the Leather sub culture. I'm always sceptical of those claiming to be Old Guard and claiming they can trace the traditions back, I enjoy having fun with them by simply making them do just that.
Occassionally I run into someone who actually can do that.
Members of some of the old patch clubs who have been members for decades and got their training at the hands of the members of that club who had been there for while befor they arrived. (ie a current member of the Satyrs MC, who has been in the club for 20 years and started out learning their leather traditions from somone who was well established in the club when they were a probationary member (pledged) to the club. I've met a few folks like that, and they have some of the very best stories you have ever heard.

More often though I hear a claim of "Old Guard" and I push for a history and they simply try to push some super secret crap, and then I know they are just trying to steal a history to bolster their respect on the backs of folks who they never even talked with.

If they have an actual tradition set that they are guarding against change, that can be traced to the early leather clubs (patch clubs) or leather families in the region then I do consider them "Old Guard".

On the other hand I am not "Old Guard" even by my generous definition and I get called Old Guard my many BDSM folks because I research various old leather traditions and incorporate them into my own Leather Family.

Quick edit to make the patch club name more historicly accurate.
Satyrs Established 1954

< Message edited by Archer -- 6/1/2007 12:57:22 PM >

(in reply to KatyLied)

Profile

Post #: 15

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 12:40:46 PM

cjenny

Posts: 1736
Joined: 11/27/2006
Status: offline

It's funny but some threads I don't bother answering because I know that there are specific others here with much better explanations than I could ever do.
Such as yours.

_____________________________

*Unless I cite a source it is MO.

~ ssssh. i think i've just found freedom. ~

(in reply to Archer)

Profile

Post #: 16

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 1:26:38 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

More often though I hear a claim of "Old Guard" and I push for a history and they simply try to push some super secret crap, and then I know they are just trying to steal a history to bolster their respect on the backs of folks who they never even talked with.

Yep, that's what I'm talking about.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Archer)

Profile

Post #: 17

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 4:22:41 PM

happypervert

Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline

quote:

More often though I hear a claim of "Old Guard" and I push for a history and they simply try to push some super secret crap, and then I know they are just trying to steal a history to bolster their respect on the backs of folks who they never even talked with.

Perhaps they did talk to the Old Guard masters and go through super secret initiation ceremonies . . . I think there is a yahoo chatroom where they get together for that, but you need an invite to get in.

I kid, I kid.

< Message edited by happypervert -- 6/1/2007 4:25:10 PM >

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to Archer)

Profile

Post #: 18

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 4:38:23 PM

OsideGirl

Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

I actually know a female Master that came up through the leather families in the Bay area in the 70s. They practiced what she calls "Old Guard" protocols. She started as a sub/slave and had to earn her "leathers" to be considered a Dominant and then a Master. Which from what I understand, is the way it was done. You didn't walk in as a Dominant.

She's a very interesting lady to talk to.

I believe that there was an "Old Guard". Leather families tended to be Lesbian or Gay, so I think that's why a great chunk of history is missing.

I also believe that a great many people misuse the term "Old Guard". I think if we asked every Dom, how long they fulfilled the submissive role, we'd have a lot of denials.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to happypervert)

Profile

Post #: 19

RE: What exactly IS old guard??? - 6/1/2007 7:03:59 PM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNoName

"Old Guard" refers to a period of time. "Old Guard" refers to specific protocols. "Old Guard" refers to a culture, a way of thinking and a way of life. Hardly what I would call "a whole lotta bullshit." "Old Guard" is a designation that some modern day kinksters have coined and which has become generally accepted throughout the BDSM community to refer to that period of time, that culture, that way of thinking, those protocols, that way of life. Seriously, start off with Guy Baldwin's article and go from there, if you are curious at all to learn about this branch of our history.

MNN

When I was in college about nine years ago I decided to take advantage of going to a university that literally has one of the best libraries in the country if not in North America and did quite a bit of research on the topic. Since it was a liberal arts university, I also did some community formation types of reports for sociology class on the formation of the American Leather community as a branch off from the GLBT community in post WW2. So I do actually have a research basis from which I speak (and its not based on online articles from Guy Baldwin but spending time in physical libraries and looking up old periodicals and such).

From everything I have seen/read there are no universal "Old Guard" protocols or standards practiced universally across the America between post WW2 and the 50s (there may be claims that there were, but it was really very regional based). It is a specific time period and by the seventies there were many more branch offs in the leather scene (lesbians had branched off, hets were starting to create formal organizations, and the bikers had their own thing going) and there was a whole new generation and the "Old Guard" period was over.

So yes, the concept of Old Guard meaning some codified thing (protcol or practices) that everyone in America into SM automatically practiced in the seventies is bullshit. Old Guard as the time after WW2 when gays and lesbians began forming informal and formal networks around practicing SM is, I believe, a more accurate description.

C~

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 6/1/2007 7:05:14 PM >

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to MistressNoName)

Profile

Post #: 20