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Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 5:18:36 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Reading about both on several recent threads i have a question. What is the difference between a Brat and being cheeky ?  Dominants who dont like Doormats, how much bratiness sits well with You ?
i consider myself to  be a little of each, yet a stare or an " excuse me " will stop me dead in my tracks. As does the threat of being punished on the spot if im in public.
I am wondering at what poing cheekiness or bratishness becomes unacceptable, not just on a specific occassion, but just gets generally tiresome ?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 5:31:04 AM   
getonallfours


Posts: 20
Joined: 4/30/2007
Status: offline 		Well I like a little cheekiness, but there are certain subjects which are non negotiable. If it is something I have established as a hard fast rule then that's when the excuse me will happen.

_____________________________

Woman is the dominant sex. Men have to do all sorts of stuff to prove that they are worthy of woman's attention.
-Camille Paglia

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 6:49:38 AM   
LadyHeart


Posts: 561
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I don't consider brattiness to be the opposite of being a doormat. To me, a brat is one who deliberately challenges in order to seek attention/punishment. A doormat to me is one who fails to use their intelligence and who therefore fails to interest me because I like intelligence in submissives. An intelligent submissive will find better ways to hold my attention than by being bratty. I find brattiness very tiresome. I do not reward bad behaviour.
:))
LadyHeart

_____________________________

"BDSM is not an excuse for bad manners."

(in reply to getonallfours)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 7:48:11 AM   
chiaThePet


Posts: 2694
Joined: 2/4/2007
Status: offline 		Dear politesub53,

i think it would all depend on one's definition of what a "brat" is.

One Woman's brat, is another Woman's badboy,

is another Woman's catalyst for correction,

is another Woman's simple smile

is another Woman's cause for celebrity,

is another Woman's reason for reaction,

is another Woman's test of tempest,

is another Woman's keeping it real,

is as many applications as there are Women.

Doormats on the other hand are inanimate objects, how boring is that?

ch ch ch chia* (the pet)

_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 9:14:24 AM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		Think of teens with their sarcastic and sometimes everpresent bad attitudes. For the most part this is aphase and someone moves on from it, or at least knows how and when to not cross the line, but if it earns the look or worse the "excuse me", then it better get in check fast. Obvious disrespect, especially in public is just a plain no no. Insults both of us

(in reply to chiaThePet)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 9:25:16 AM   
chiaThePet


Posts: 2694
Joined: 2/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hereyesruponyou

Think of teens with their sarcastic and sometimes everpresent bad attitudes. For the most part this is aphase and someone moves on from it, or at least knows how and when to not cross the line, but if it earns the look or worse the "excuse me", then it better get in check fast. Obvious disrespect, especially in public is just a plain no no. Insults both of us


Dearest hereyesruponyou,

i agree with You that when it reaches that fever pitch, it insults both of us,
especially when both are flinging insults and disprespect for one another.

ch ch ch chia* (the pet)

_____________________________

Love is a many splendid sting.

You can stick me in the corner, but I'll probably just end up coloring on the walls.

(in reply to hereyesruponyou)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 9:31:50 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHeart

I don't consider brattiness to be the opposite of being a doormat. To me, a brat is one who deliberately challenges in order to seek attention/punishment. A doormat to me is one who fails to use their intelligence and who therefore fails to interest me because I like intelligence in submissives. An intelligent submissive will find better ways to hold my attention than by being bratty. I find brattiness very tiresome. I do not reward bad behaviour.
:))
LadyHeart


I agree.

Being a brat and being a doormat are not opposites. I think they are both unattractive stereotypes that some people partly fulfill.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to LadyHeart)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 9:54:37 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for the viewpoints and maybe i didnt phrase the question right. i was looking for a view on the point when brattiness and cheekiness cross. i know that as with everything on here, there will be dozens of different degrees that are acceptable.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 10:22:47 AM   
DeviantDiva


Posts: 16
Joined: 11/25/2006
Status: offline 		I guess for me, the way I see that line of cheekiness crossing over into brattiness also has something to do with their intent.  When a submissive (or pretty much any otherwise normal functioning, cognizant adult) resorts to bratty behavior for a persistent period of time, it often comes across as a kind of passive-aggressive attempt at getting attention or maniuplating the situation.  Which then leads me to question their motivation, as well as maturity and intelligence level. 

Now, cheekiness works for me in a few ways and can even be a bit of a turn on...but again, that's just me.  I love a little sauciness from my sub...there's nothing maniuplative about it...I see it as a fun, creative way of expressing himself, his thoughts or feelings at that particular moment.   Banter can be sexy too.

< Message edited by DeviantDiva -- 6/3/2007 10:23:28 AM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 10:26:28 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		DeviantDiva great answer Maam, i never actually considered the intent, but if the intent is just playfulness and in the correct circumstances. Then the degree may be not so important.
Thanks for that thought.

(in reply to DeviantDiva)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 11:36:13 AM   
MsKatHouston


Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		For me I think there is a vast difference between cheekiness and being a brat.  I like a little cheekiness.  I want a sub who is intelligent and playful and has a sense of humor.  When I think of a brat, I think of someone who is willful and unmannered.  A child.  If I am continually challeneged or feel the submissive is being disrespectful or seeking attention, I consider that bratty.  Brattiness is something I find very unappealing

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 11:40:01 AM   
Calandra


Posts: 725
Joined: 11/22/2004
Status: offline 		I also think that "intent" is the defining point. A brat seeks to challenge authority, invalidate someone, or diminish them as a person.
 
I love a submissive who can balance a sense of humor with compassion, empathy, and fairness. Someone who can find humor in everyday situations without resorting to personal attacks is a gem in My opinion.
 
I must say that the high point of My day is laughing with My boys, and when I do or say something to inspire that laughter, I humbly accept it and "vow revenge" playfully. Their humor never crosses the line into disrespect, and they don't ever challenge My authority over the household. They appreciate My authority - it's what drew them to Me in the first place and to diminish that would diminish the entire dynamic between us.
 
I also respect a submissive who can debate and discuss issues without resorting to insults and disrespect. If a person can own their opinions, and can speak their truth without forcing it upon others, My respect grows. If a person can observe anothers' opinions and beliefs and judge their merit in his/her life WITHOUT imposing that judgement upon anyone else's decisions, I am impressed.
 
I often feel pity for those who cannot show respect for others, because it shows that they have no respect for themselves. Pity or not, I still have the right to avoid contact with such persons.

_____________________________

Lady Kathryn
Athens, Ga.
House of Phoenix

"Nothing is ever final until you're dead - and even then I'm sure God negotiates" Anjelica Huston in Everafter

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 2:20:31 PM   
SDFemDom4cuck


Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Reading about both on several recent threads i have a question. What is the difference between a Brat and being cheeky ?  Dominants who dont like Doormats, how much bratiness sits well with You ?
i consider myself to  be a little of each, yet a stare or an " excuse me " will stop me dead in my tracks. As does the threat of being punished on the spot if im in public.
I am wondering at what poing cheekiness or bratishness becomes unacceptable, not just on a specific occassion, but just gets generally tiresome ?


Since you've clarified on a further post regarding the doormat part I won't comment on that.

Brattiness is undesirable. I see it as manipulative. Continuous brattiness isn't something that I'll put up with for long. Cheekiness is that playful humor and wit that I adore in a sub. Nothing intrigues me more than intelligence, wit and humor. Unfortunately, for me, that line can be as sinuous as a snakes path.

I tend to be a bit mercurical, so what may be cheeky comment on one day, may be seen as being bratty on another day. The perception of which, and what crosses the line, is as individual as the two people involved, the comment itself, the intereaction between the two and the mood of the moment when the comment is being made. Usually a raised eyebrow, or a tilt of the head and a quietly spoken, "I'm sorry, would you care to repeat that?" from me is a very good indicator of what is teetering on that edge of going over the line from cheeky to brat. While a sharp swift smack across the face usually signifies that line has irrevokably been crossed.

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 2:28:11 PM   
littledove00


Posts: 50
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline 		i don't find the 2 to be opposites.  brattiness can be playfulness it's not always a negative...

(in reply to SDFemDom4cuck)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 3:32:09 PM   
Laura


Posts: 573
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		If I'm still laughing on the inside it's just cheeky and still fun. If he says something that hits a nerve it stops being fun. But I do like some cheeky/ brattiness. I don't know how someone could want to avoid humour in D/s.


_____________________________

Bait & Switch - Adult column

(in reply to littledove00)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 3:48:44 PM   
Copulo


Posts: 268
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline 		Im with MsKatHoustonon this one
I know one very popular free slave on the London scene that all the Mistresses love because although he never forgets his place he has that cheeky little twinkle in his eye and you cant help but love him! Give me a cheeky grin any day.

I have had a brat that was a doormat. She was a brat in the sense that she did stupid things like sitting her coffee balancing precariously on my leather sofa, hoping it would get her into trouble. In those instances she was not punished the way she wanted to be but just told to get the f**k out of my house if she wanted to behave that way. When it came to play she was so much in her own little bubble and refused to communicate, making her very much a doormat. She didn’t last long!

(in reply to Laura)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 3:50:10 PM   
octavia


Posts: 377
Joined: 5/20/2007
Status: offline 		I guess I would say that there is a difference between childish and childlike.  Brattiness is often used to describe me when im being childish and inmature.  I do try to not fall into that, but sometimes my feelings get the better of me and I say stupid stuff to the wrong people and come acrosss bratty. 

I also test.  I have to.  I am smart enouph to out think some people and I have to have a Dom who will be able to handle me.  Testing is a natural part of the process for me.  That being said, I don't test all the time.  If I test and I get the result I need ( doesn't fall for it, put up with my crap.. whatever)  I am pleased as punch and we have walked up another step on the trust ladder. 

childlikeness is a whole other thing.  Being playful and cheeky is fun!  I cannot even imagine life without being able to embrace it with the glee of a child.  While I will try and temper my childish behavior for a Dom, I would never let go of my childlikeness. 
Weeeeeeeee! *spins*
octavia

(in reply to Laura)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 4:49:47 PM   
Copulo


Posts: 268
Joined: 5/3/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks Stella, Your incredibly interesting.
Im sorry to hear about all this recent shit you had to go through in this hostel. It shows us just how screwed the system is. Nobody deserves to have to live in such vulnerable circumstances.

I was actually well away from IC by the time this bullying started with you. It was Angelica that told me about that. I know she was very concerned for you at the time. Maria is a lovely woman who is incredibly kind and thoughtful but btw she does not know much about what my past was about.
The reason I told you was 1. because I could relate to you and you seem very intelligent and 2. because I had to tell someone. I honestly felt like I was boiling up and needed to vent. Writing to you helped a lot so thanks just for reading that! Im really no longer a victim.... well most of the time!!

The little girl that was abused will if anything grow up hugely unconfident of herself. She may try to take on other personalities, its very common with children that have been abused, sort of like an alter ego. The absolute best thing that you and her mum can do for her is lots and lots of praise and compliments. Make her feel like she is really special, make her believe in herself. Tell hers she’s beautiful because abused children see a very ugly side to themselves.
The other problem but hopefully she may be too young to remember this is she could believe that the way to get a daddy is to do things to him that she perceives as normal. As a child I used to offer myself sexually to any man who showed me any affection because I believed that was what he wanted. Very embarrassing for my mum!

I think its often very difficult to write something onto a forum without it getting misconstrued and made into a dogs dinner. The written word is a powerful thing that can have so many meanings depending on who reads it.
An awful lot of people stayed off that thread because they related to what I was saying (lets face it, you only have to be a parent) but worried about responding because of the possible back lash. I have had so many pms from people saying they think its something that concerns them. I just really wish that they had, had the courage to come on the thread and say that. I am not against ageplay at all. I help out as a teacher at St Virginias for adult kids!! And I understand many of the dynamics of ageplay but  its those that lurk in the shadows that concern me and I know it concerns many, many people that I have spoken to over the years. All these recent threads on ageplay just gave me the opportunity to voice that concern.

I read with great interest about ‘The Hammer’. I am originally from Leeds and was actually out on the streets at the time of the Yorkshire Ripper and I lived just round the corner from Jayne Macdonald. My elder sister was a friend of the twin Helen Rytka.
Your theory is an interesting one and one that I would like to see come into shape in a drama so please let me know when it goes into production.

Anyway I could write all night but I have to get up in the morning and its now 12.45 so I guess I should get to bed.

Thanks again and do keep in touch. Btw I do enjoy your posts

Maria xxx

(in reply to MsKatHouston)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/3/2007 5:30:13 PM   
LadyHeart


Posts: 561
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Several people have pointed out that brattiness is manipulative and passive/aggressive. It is topping from the bottom. The brat is not submissive. The brat is trying to control the Dominant. A submissive can be cheeky without ceasing to be submissive. That is why I have no patience with brats. I want a submissive, not a thinly disguised Dom who doesn't know themselves well enough to understand that they are a bottom, not a submissive.
:))
LH

_____________________________

"BDSM is not an excuse for bad manners."

(in reply to Copulo)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Brat V Doormat - 6/4/2007 4:31:51 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I have no time for brats, in My opinion.  They remind Me too much of spoiled children looking for the wrong kind of attention.  Try that negative approach with Me in public, and one quickly finds themselves on the way out. 
 
Cheekienss, on the other hand, is something much different.  It;s about being playful and fun.  I don't want to be serious and stern all of the time.  Why should anyone else? 

(in reply to LadyHeart)
Profile   Post #: 20
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