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CalliopePurple -> Gender (5/24/2005 3:48:59 PM)
The issue of gender has been rolling around in my head lately and I decided to start a thread here for people's thoughts on it. But, since I don't feel like thinking of another way to explain my own thoughts, I'm just ripping this out of my LJ because I'm lazy like that. "There is a distinct difference between biological sex - what a person's body says it is - and perceived sex - the way someone sees him/herself. When they don't match, you get a transgendered individual who may or may not ever be able to make the two images match up. "I, personally, get mistaken for a guy on occasion. Do I care - no. But this doesn't mean I want to be a guy. It doesn't mean I see myself as inherently female, either. "I like the term "genderqueer". It's less stuffy than "androgynous", and I think the connotations are a little different. Someone may be androgynous in appearance, but have a very firm self definition as male or female. I don't know of other people that, like me, see themselves as really neither male or female, but somewhere in between where things are very blurred and hazy grey. Hell, I'm not even sure where I'd start looking." As I posted on another thread, I'd like to have both breasts and a penis. And I smiled when I found a silly online quiz thing that offered "neither" as an option for "sex", though sex is more technically used for the physical parts and not the mental definition of self. It's fun to fuck with people's perceptions of gender, especially when I'm really looking like a guy and then they hear me speak....my voice is a bit more on the feminine side. All thoughts/comments welcome, though I may reply slow. I don't come to the forums more than once or twice a day.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Gender (5/24/2005 5:04:17 PM)
quote: "I like the term "genderqueer". It's less stuffy than "androgynous", and I think the connotations are a little different. Someone may be androgynous in appearance, but have a very firm self definition as male or female. I don't know of other people that, like me, see themselves as really neither male or female, but somewhere in between where things are very blurred and hazy grey. Hell, I'm not even sure where I'd start looking." CalliopePurple, It is interesting that you bring up this point about androgynous being solely about external appearances. I think many people assume that because I am a total girlie girl on the outside, that I do not subvert gender. And yet, I have so many traits associated with the male gender, much more then most others that primarily associate with the female gender. So “genderqueer” it is! I love it. Like you, I’m going to cut & paste some of my anterior writings. It’s not being lazy, but rather being efficient! There was a time when I wrote quite passionately about the subject and I have gathered some of my reflections which are supported with some of my favorite theorists on the subject. "Sex is fucking, everything else is gender" Kate Bornstein The majority of members of our society believe that they want everything explained in neat little packages, and therefore impose laws and regulations for everyone to abide to. In doing so, they are denying that there are other possibilities to the "norm". This normalizing process stigmatizes, ridicules and alienates the "other". Often synonymous with the word sex, gender is often defined as the behavioural, cultural, and physical traits that are associated with one's biological or chromosomal sex. Eve Sedgwick, a poet and literary critic who has done pioneering and influential work in Queer theory, offers a more elaborate and accurate definition of gender: "Gender, then, is the far more elaborated, more fully and rigidly dichotomized social production and reproduction of male and female identities and behaviors--of male and female persons--in a cultural system for which 'male/female' functions as a primary and perhaps model binarism affecting the structure and meaning of many, many other binarisms whose apparent connection to chromosomal sex will often be exiguous or nonexistent. Compared to chromosomal sex which is seen (by these definitions) as tending to be immutable, immanent in the individual, and biologically based, the meaning of gender is seen as culturally mutable and variable, highly relational (in the sense that each of the binarized genders is defined primarily by its relation to the other), and inextricable from a history of power differentials between genders." Medically, religiously, legally, there are only two recognized genders: male and female. Sociologically, they have regularly been treated as opposites. On this topic, Sedgwick brings up a very pertinent point: “Genders--insofar as there are two and they are defined in contradistinction to one another--may be said to be opposite; but in what sense is XX the opposite of XY?". After all, during the period of incubation, an embryo always develops first as a chromosomal female. How then can the sexes be logically polarized? A more accurate way of defining their difference would be to see them as variables. Furthermore, variables are not limited to binarism, but rather are open to many possibilities. Kate Bornstein, a radical transsexual or gender outlaw echoes this notion in an interview with Shannon Bell for Ctheory online magazine: "The first thing to do is to ask the question: What is gender? This is a question that does not get asked; people mostly ask 'what is the difference between men and women?' They begin by presupposing a specific bi-polar gender system. The first step in taking gender apart is to ask the question; the second step is to get other people to ask the question. As Maggie says in The Opposite Sex ... Is Neither!, 'a civilization is more well-known by the questions it asks than by the answers it comes up with.' I don't think 'what is gender' is an answerable question. I think the answer is that there is no such thing as gender, other than what we say it is." Along the same lines, Judith Butler, a theorist of power, gender, sexuality and identity, also discusses gender as something that is culturally created. Butler suggests that moulds have been set for gender identity via hegemony, and that through suggestive power (laws, religion and other institutions), what is "normal" is defined. Modern Western society's structure, laws and institutions, perpetrate this notion of bi-polarized gender, contributing to the hegemonous reality. Every time an individual fills out an official form, gender is invariably required, even if this information seems completely irrelevant and often prejudicial, such as it in the case of credit card applications. This point could be taken further in saying that every time one ticks the F or the M, they are fuelling the hegemonous hold and confirming their own enslavement into gender binarism. Butler, unlike many who only analyze society's woes, brings forth a suggestion for change in the form of gender subversion. In her book Gender Trouble, she calls for the mobilization, subversive confusion, and proliferation of genders and therefore identity. She states that "[t]here is no gender identity behind the expressions of gender; ... identity is performatively constituted by the very 'expressions' that are said to be its results." And there is my food for thought. - LA

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Gender (5/25/2005 10:59:01 AM)
I agree that gender fucking is much fun!

perverseangelic -> RE: Gender (5/25/2005 12:48:46 PM)
LadyAngelika I think you are my new best friend. In your post you touched on almost all of the theorists that I -adore-. I'm a gender studies minor in school, but my passion is feminist lit theory and theory of gender on the 'net. You brought up the theorists I most often use when I'm working on my own stuff related to gender presentation on the web. swoon

CalliopePurple -> RE: Gender (5/25/2005 5:40:18 PM)
I can't say that I'm familiar with any of the people LadyAngelika mentioned, but that's because I haven't really thought much about gender issues for very long. But the points mentioned are good and I'm gonna have a little fun by dragging out dictionary.com and seeing how it defines "sex", "gender", and "androgyny." Then I'll see if Wikipedia has anything to say about "genderqueer." sex 1. a. The property or quality by which organisms are classified as female or male on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions. b. Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, of this classification. 2. Females or males considered as a group. 3. The condition or character of being female or male; the physiological, functional, and psychological differences that distinguish the female and the male. See Usage Note at gender. 4. The sexual urge or instinct as it manifests itself in behavior. 5. Sexual intercourse. 6. The genitals. The one in bold is the one that I was mainly refering to in my first post. All of those except 4 are physical states. gen·der 1. Grammar. a. A grammatical category used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms. b. One category of such a set. c. The classification of a word or grammatical form in such a category. d. The distinguishing form or forms used. 2. Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture. 3. a. The condition of being female or male; sex. b. Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender. Again, I bolded the usage of the word that I tend to use. Being known as the "walking dictionary" has its perks, it seems. We can totally disregard 1 since it's purely the grammatical definition of the word. I don't like 3a since it's synonymous with my definition of "sex" and there needs to be a way to separate the physical and the mental. But here's the usage note "sex" refered to: Usage Note: Traditionally, gender has been used primarily to refer to the grammatical categories of “masculine,” “feminine,” and “neuter,” but in recent years the word has become well established in its use to refer to sex-based categories, as in phrases such as gender gap and the politics of gender. This usage is supported by the practice of many anthropologists, who reserve sex for reference to biological categories, while using gender to refer to social or cultural categories. According to this rule, one would say The effectiveness of the medication appears to depend on the sex (not gender) of the patient, but In peasant societies, gender (not sex) roles are likely to be more clearly defined. This distinction is useful in principle, but it is by no means widely observed, and considerable variation in usage occurs at all levels. I didn't know the anthropology bit, but it seems that's where the need to separate the two comes from. Useful thing, that is. an·drog·y·nous 1. Biology. Having both female and male characteristics; hermaphroditic. 2. Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior Here's where me and the dictionary disagree. If you wanted to consider someone androgynous based on behavior, all you'd be doing is saying that s/he doesn't fit the perfect stereotypical male or female way of acting. And that's a lot more people than it used to be, I think. As I'm typing this, the anime standard of "bishonen", or pretty boys, is coming to mind. They are male, make no mistake of that, but some of them are virtually indistinguishable from females. And there are few things more amusing than a guy who swears he's totally straight to look at one and say "she's pretty." I think that it's slowly becoming more acceptable to be androgynous, but people like myself, and Angelika to some degree, who don't identify or easily fit into the male and female labels, will probably remain viewed as odd by mainstream society for quite some time. Wikipedia has quite an excellent article on the word "genderqueer", so click here to read it if you're curious. @_@ I think this is my longest post ever, even though a great bit of it is copy and paste definitions. Edited to fix slight formatting issue

RiotGirl -> RE: Gender (5/25/2005 6:54:56 PM)
i'm a girl who is a tomboy that loves to dress up and go out and party or have a nice evening. i love to get dirty, i love to climb trees, i like to look pretty. i enjoy make up, i enjoy having my nails done, but i enjoy playing with "boy toys" And i'd love to have a penis so one day when i find that willing man i could rape him and make him scream. (oxymoron alert) i am submissive with dominant traits. Give me a girl and i will lead, give me a man and i will follow. i am a masochist, but i love watching other girls in pain. We are NOT one thing, but ALL things and if you're like me : you're capable of everything Getting into the Gender discussion. Embroy's all start out as female. It is not until the testastrone kicks in to the female embroys turn to male embroys. As well we all have both sets of hormones in us

gothicdraconica -> RE: Gender (5/26/2005 2:47:12 AM)
My Mistress thinks I have the bone structure of a boy. [:o]

sissymaidlola -> RE: Gender (5/26/2005 7:08:29 AM)
Hi CalliopePurple, You might want to check out these posts on the topic of gender. sissy Also has a number of blogs on the topic if you care to delve through his journal on the other side. Gender terminology and the need for a third sex A person's gender is NOT only in their mind Gender Reassignment Surgery Castration does NOT change one's gender Hope this helps and stimulates your interest in this fascinating topic. sissy maid lola [image]local://upfiles/21203/7E0D104EFB3740879640CDA0FA6DE5CE.gif[/image]

XXXLilithXXX -> RE: Gender (5/26/2005 7:20:45 AM)
That isn't a bad thing, my pretty boy. [;)]

sissymaidlola -> RE: Gender (5/26/2005 8:08:21 AM)
quote: I agree that gender fucking is much fun! sissy Is not sure that "gender fucking" was either mentioned or even hinted at in the two posts prior to yours. So how can you agree with that concept, Emerald? You are the one that introduced that term here. What is"gender fucking" anyway? As someone that likes to play with his gender and also likes to fuck, sissy still has no idea what you are talking about. sissy maid lola [image]local://upfiles/21203/7550AAD373274EA8911F0BC3852D002C.jpg[/image]

sissymaidlola -> RE: Gender (5/26/2005 8:20:40 AM)
Ohhh, your views on gender seem to have grown quite sophisticated over the last couple of months since you made this post on sissy's thread, LA. In fact, your views on gender have become almost as radically different as your writing style has recently become. [:D] sissy maid lola [image]local://upfiles/21203/7550AAD373274EA8911F0BC3852D002C.jpg[/image]

perverseangelic -> RE: Gender (5/26/2005 8:25:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sissymaidlola "gender fucking" Gender fucking-- fucking with gender. AKA gender queering. Generally used in my classes to get the attention of college students who think that teachers can't use the "f-word" And it really -is- fun, isn't it, Emerald? I got my hair buzzed at the begining of this year, which opened my eyes to the fun world of challenging visual gender norms. I knew it was there, but had never been a part of it before, just envied people who were :) Now? Pur.

CalliopePurple -> RE: Gender (5/26/2005 5:16:20 PM)
Lola, I was sitting here wondering if/when you would see this thread and post. I've been kinda lurking for a while on the forums before really getting into things and your posts have always struck me as either amusing or well-written and honest, depending on the needed mood. So I'll go digging through old threads tonight because I have entirely too much time on my hands and the urge to see lots of other people's opinions on things. I'll look through your journal as well if I haven't started to feel like my brains are oozing out my ears by that point. And "genderfucking" is messing with people's perceptions of what "male" and "female" are, deliberately or not. Like perverse shaving her head (which I've also done) and dressing in a way that makes it hard to tell, either at a distance or up close. Tries thinking of how many times grandfatherly types have called her "sonny" and loses count.

sub4hire -> RE: Gender (5/26/2005 6:04:40 PM)
Found this, thought some of you may be interested. http://www.statenews.com/article.phtml?pk=30212 New research suggests sexual orientation decided by biology By MAGGIE LILLIS The State News JEANA-DEE ALLEN · The State News Sean Kosofsky, the director of policy at the Triangle Foundation, 19641 W. Seven Mile Road in Detroit, gives guidance to a client Monday morning. Kosofsky is responsible for lobbying, fundraising, diversity training and mentoring those who are victims of hate crimes. A friend once told Sean Kosofsky that lobbying is years of boredom with moments of intense insanity. Now is one of those times of insanity. Two weeks ago, a study was released suggesting that sexual orientation is biological, refuting those who say it is a chosen lifestyle. For Kosofsky, the director of policy and lobbyist for Triangle Foundation, the research is a significant advance for his ongoing efforts to advocate lesbian, bisexual, gay and transgender rights in Michigan. For the rest click on the link.

sissymaidlola -> RE: Genderfucking (5/27/2005 10:29:36 PM)
quote: And "genderfucking" is messing with people's perceptions of what "male" and "female" are, deliberately or not. You and Emerald can call it "genderfucking" but sissy thinks that it's an inappropriate term. sissy Prefers to "challenge sexual shibboleths" ... and yes, it is one of the most fun parts of crossdressing. The good old Anglo-Saxon term "fuck" has roughly six meanings when used as a verb (it can also be used as a noun), three as a transitive verb and three as an intransitive verb. One of the intransitive verb meanings is: "to interfere or meddle". In this form it is normally used with the preposition "with". Thus, you can "fuck with someone's mind" - or "mindfuck" them - which has the desired meaning of "messing with someone's head or their perceptions." When one "challenges sexual shibboleths" one is "mindfucking" with someone's perceptions of, and reactions to, gender ... IsHO it is a "gender mindfuck" NOT a "genderfuck"! That person's gender is NOT being "fucked with" in this instance, but rather that person's perception and preconceived notions about gender is being "fucked with" and perceptions and notions are all mental and in the mind. If sissy "genderfucked" you, YOUR own gender would be "interfered or meddled with" and NOT your perception and preconceived notions about sissy's gender ... that latter case is a "gender mindfuck" where it is sissy's gender that is in question and your perception of it that is being "mindfucked"! Given that there are also transitive verb meanings for the word "fuck" the term "genderfucking" imples a lot more things in preference to the desired meaning, IsHO. For instance, the term implies taking advantage of, or victimizing, someone's gender (as in: "by instigating a national draft system targeted only at males, the average American boy aged 25 or under has effectively been genderfucked by the current administration") or even interfering or meddling with someone else's gender (as in: "by completely shaving Sharon's head while she napped just prior to her going out on her hot date, Kevin effectively genderfucked Sharon's normally very alluring feminine mystique") rather than the intended meaning. By crossdressing in public sissy is also doing a lot more than just fucking with other peoples' trite and clichéd perceptions and notions about his own gender ... he's also fucking with other peoples' perceptions and notions about his own sexual orientation (many still assume that a man wearing a dress must be gay) and social dominance (many are also going to assume that sissy is meek and docile) as well. Therefore crossdressing for sissy involves a lot more than just gender mindfucking ... there's a whole lot of other mindfucking going on, too! [:D] Thus sissy would argue that "genderfucking" is a very sloppy and limited term ... it's certainly a term that is a lot more flawed than "TPE" is! So CalliopePurple, sissy did actually understand what the term meant ... but it is a kind of pet peave with him that the term is sloppy and inappropiate, which is why he was so surprised to see it used by someone that espouses being precise in her language. So how do you like the alternative of "challenging sexual shibboleths", CalliopePurple ? Note - shibboleth, noun. Just some of its meanings: 1. banality, bromide, cliché, hackneyed saying, high camp, hokum, inanity, insipidity, old chestnut, old saw, platitude, prosaicism, prosaism, shallowness, standing joke, stereotype, triteness, triviality, vapidity. 2. superstition, false belief, fear, irrationality, notion, unfounded fear. 3. a custom or practice that betrays one as an outsider. 4. analysis, approval, assessment, catechism, check, confirmation, corroboration, criterion, evaluation, examination, experiment, inquest, inquiry, inspection, investigation, ordeal, probing, proof, questionnaire, quiz, scrutiny, search, standard, substantiation, touchstone, trial, tryout, verification, yardstick. sissy maid lola [image]local://upfiles/21203/7E0D104EFB3740879640CDA0FA6DE5CE.gif[/image]

CalliopePurple -> RE: Genderfucking (5/28/2005 7:16:46 PM)
I actually like that term, now that you've explained precisely what it is you don't like about "genderfuck". Just came across it on Wikipedia and decided that it was useful. Words with multiple and misunderstood meanings get on my nerves, like someone saying a certain person is "aggravating" them, when "aggravate" means to make an existing problem even worse. And I've read most of the thread discussing TPE, so I know your thoughts on that wonderfully screwed up term. Just as people think a man in a dress is most likely gay, they assume that a woman in men's clothing is a lesbian. Mostly true in my case (I'm bi, prefer women), but I know a lot of people that it's false for - they just like the loose, comfortable styles. I wouldn't have known what the word "shibboleth" meant if it weren't for that note at the end of your post, though. Considers shaving head again, fiddles around with new piercing

perverseangelic -> RE: Genderfucking (5/28/2005 7:54:46 PM)
Well, I understand what you're saying, but "genderfuck" reads much differently to me. It reads as "fucking with gender" which is, in fact, what I am doing when I genderfuck. To me, it is about the claiming the word "fuck" as well as using something that is mildly shocking. For me, it isn't so much about messing with someone else's perceptions of gender. It's about fucking it--interfearing with-- my OWN perceptions of gender, especially of my own gender. Genderfucking, for me, is about playing with my own experience of and within myself as a gendered being. Sure, other's preceptions are nice, too, but it's all about how I feel and not what it is thought that I feel. I think sometimes precition of language isn't required. In this case, the term encompases the variety of definitions of fuck. Yes, even the violent and victimizing ones. I think it is a term that is more general than yours and covers a wider variety of actions, and I don't think that's a bad thing.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Gender (5/29/2005 9:31:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic LadyAngelika I think you are my new best friend. In your post you touched on almost all of the theorists that I -adore-. I'm a gender studies minor in school, but my passion is feminist lit theory and theory of gender on the 'net. You brought up the theorists I most often use when I'm working on my own stuff related to gender presentation on the web. swoon Aw thanks perverseangelic. I miss being in that literature mindset. Those years were very formative in helping me understand gender issues and how they relate to my life. I have had fun subverting even those views into exploring gender polarities, reinforcing these polarities themselves as a type of subversion. An example of this is taking a man and making him explore his masculinity even further. - LA

LadyAngelika -> RE: Gender (5/29/2005 9:40:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sissymaidlola Ohhh, your views on gender seem to have grown quite sophisticated over the last couple of months since you made this post on sissy's thread, LA. In fact, your views on gender have become almost as radically different as your writing style has recently become. [:D] sissy maid lola My views on gender have not changed. I have always been extremely gender inclusive. That was an excerpt from an academic paper written in April of 2000 for a class on Sexuality, Identity and Politics. Which also explains my academic writing style in the post. I did mention I was cutting and pasting from an anterior writings. But you probably didn't read that in your hasty attempts to discredit me. As to why I don't write like that here, I tend to adapt my style to the venue and this is not an academic paper, this is a discussion forum. I have posted many of these views on threads over the last year: What defines homosexuality? - 7/11/2004 The skills of a female submissive/slave - 7/14/2004 A post on who is really dominant - 7/30/2004 subs Craving Strap ons and "forced" bi sc... - 9/3/2004 Removing gender - 9/3/2004 guys who pretend to be girls - 10/26/2004 Continuing on Bi Question - 2/25/2005 So nice try lola - I have actually been quite consistent since my arrival here on collarme.com in July of 2004 and way before that. I'm not sure what post you are referring to as you have offered up a dead link. But I believe it has something to do with my thread on enforced masculinity. You still have your knickers in a knot about that one huh? Well if someone takes the time to read my posts on that thread, they will realize that I was making a statement on a particular kink and not excluding any other. Because I expressed a desire to force masculinity on men (which I consider to be a type of gender subversion itself), you got offended and you have made up your mind that I am not trans-friendly. One day perhaps you will decide to stop trying to make me out to be trans-hating person despite all the evidence pointing to the fact that I am extremely inclusive. Yes I did attack you in that thread. Yes I did come back a few posts later stating that I had lost my cool. But understand that I was not stating that genderfucking was unappealing to me, but rather it was you and your attitude. For the record, 4 days before you made this post, you claimed you could ignore me a lot longer then I could ignore you. Guess you were wrong. - LA edited for clarity

LadyAngelika -> RE: Genderfucking (5/29/2005 9:48:01 AM)
quote: Well, I understand what you're saying, but "genderfuck" reads much differently to me. It reads as "fucking with gender" which is, in fact, what I am doing when I genderfuck. To me, it is about the claiming the word "fuck" as well as using something that is mildly shocking. ¸ This is how I view genderfucking as well. And I agree with you and Em that genderfucking is way much fun. - LA

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