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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 3:09:17 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		With all this religous debate and talk going on here - which always gets peoples dander up, one thing resonated with me that was said - Hate the sin not the sinner.  You close doors with hatred and can only change through love. That is my personal belief.  Forgiveness is one of the greatest gifts there is - especially for oneself.  It frees the soul. 



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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 3:17:30 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Why should we let people who divorce remarry?  It's fairly clear that the J-man would be against this practice.


~nod~

And Catholics can't remarry, as far as I know.

Which is one of the reasons why many Catholic churches require a premarital course before wedding a couple.


Of course they can...It is called Catholic hypocrisy, all they do is get there first marriage annulled...kids no problem...we will just pretend it never happened, that way they can get remarried stay in the church and continue to contribute all of their hard earned cash to a Vatican that has the wealth of approximately 15 billion dollars.

quote:

Or the ability to at any time talk about something unknown at the time of his life...


quote:

Aswad
Hmm? This sentence didn't parse for me. Could I ask you to repeat it in a different way?


It was worded poorly....One of the huge problems with the Bible is that Jesus knows all....He knew Peter would betray him three times...etc....So he had to know that Judas would betray him before meeting him....Only makes since...Oops different topic.

Anywhoo....I don't know if you've ever read the book "Contact" by Sagan....Not the greatest read and a rather shitty movie...Sagan suggests, speaking as the scientist, that it wouldn't have killed Jesus (no pun intended) to dramatically state some knowledge that was not available at his "time."  Dinosaurs are a great example ...Or the approximate distance of the Earth to the Sun using the measurements of the time....The circumference of the planet...It is easy to pick just one topic that would only be evident for cultures to come and say, "Wow, how did he know that?".Anything would have given some sort of credibility to what Christ purported himself to be....

quote:

These are all serious shortcomings of a book that was assembled by man as to what the message as well as the content should be.

quote:

Aswad
It wasn't assembled by a man.


I said "by man" there were many books being passed around after the death of Jesus...The oldest are estimated to have been produced within thirty to forty years after he died....None of these books were written by the disciples...Who, the majority if not all, were illiterate...But the majority of the books that make up "our" bible are thought to have been written within approx. 100 years of Jesus' death.

So many books were rejected as to being created so far after the death of Christ to have relevance...Or the writer did not have direct contact with Christ or the disciples....Other bibles have other texts....It is impossible to say what was the exact criteria for the admission into the make up of the 27 texts of The New Testament....I remember reading about a passage in which Peter asked Christ,(paraphrasing) "That if God was forgiving why people were sent to Hell for all eternity"....Jesus responded, "That their time in Hell was short lived and that all would find the kingdom of God."....This verse did not please the "creators" of the bible not damning enough....I think it can be found in other texts ...Ethiopian perhaps?

Just some random thoughts.....And yes, I have found the majority of the Christian right to be cocksuckers as well.

lol.

.


< Message edited by domiguy -- 6/5/2007 3:56:18 PM >

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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 3:38:31 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Then general commonality between them though it that spanking is punishment - not to be enjoyed and used to improve relations between man and woman/husband and wife by correcting the wife to improve her behavior...


If it works for them, that's fine. But I do get the point.

quote:

The male is the HOH - never the other way around, and the woman while they find satisfaction in being punished by their HOH, because it's a testament to his love and concern for her wellbeing, they do claim to really despise the pain, humiliation, etc that it entails. 


I know more than a few who actually do despise it. But I'd agree that many don't, and that some of those may hide it. Mostly, though, I think it's a case of not having dug deeper into their own motives. Basically, they are emulating the classic 50's (and not "Bewitched"-style, I might add; that was pretty daring for its time) relationship model, and not thinking much beyond that. At least, such has been my experience with them, though admittedly, I haven't hung around that place for a long time.

As for male HOH, there are still a number of gender stereotypes that hold, and most men are still, sadly enough, not comfortable with the idea of a role reversal in that regard. Quite possibly some of the TIH women could have found a dominant streak in themselves, but the TIH style is pretty much a "traditional" lifestyle in that regard, i.e. pre-feminism.

Perhaps even a kind of counterculture to feminism.

quote:

They always feel the need to seperate themselves like anyone who enjoys spanking must have cooties or something lol.


Homogenous groups often prefer to seperate themselves from a larger, heterogenous umbrella.

Goreans, for instance, tend to be very adamant that their relationships aren't D/s relationships, despite the fact that the label applies just as well to them as to any other M/s style relationship out there; my relationship isn't "D/s", either, but "D/s" describes it. There isn't such a thing as "D/s", but there is an umbrella label "D/s" that applies to a wide range of relationship dynamics with a common theme. "A D/s relationship" is just shorthand for that, IMO.

quote:

i guess it would topple their little kingdoms and make their house of cards come crashing down.


Quite possibly. It does bear some character of being "regular folks" exploring a lifestyle option that appeals to them, while still being "regular" enough that "teh BDZM" is unkosher to their mind. In that regard, it's all good. It helps get BDSM into more homes, under whatever label, and paves the way for eventual social acceptance.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 3:43:18 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

With all this religous debate and talk going on here - which always gets peoples dander up, one thing resonated with me that was said - Hate the sin not the sinner.


Yay! Someone agrees with me. There is hope for humanity still!

Now excuse me while I go find a snowboard, I hear Hell is becoming quite the ski resort these days.

quote:

You close doors with hatred and can only change through love. That is my personal belief.  Forgiveness is one of the greatest gifts there is - especially for oneself.  It frees the soul.


I have this bad habit of quoting High Fantasy authors, but good storytelling is an Art that captures some things well, and authors frequently have a way with prose, so here goes, from The Sword of Truth, the "Wizard's Fourth Rule":
"There is magic in sincere forgiveness, the magic to heal. In forgiveness you grant, but more so, in forgiveness you receive. [...]Forgiving and being forgiven are powerful elements of healing, not for your body, but your soul. Forgiving others is healthy for you, but being forgiven is even more powerful. "


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 3:53:19 PM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
Then general commonality between them though it that spanking is punishment - not to be enjoyed and used to improve relations between man and woman/husband and wife by correcting the wife to improve her behavior... The male is the HOH - never the other way around, and the woman while they find satisfaction in being punished by their HOH, because it's a testament to his love and concern for her wellbeing, they do claim to really despise the pain, humiliation, etc that it entails. 

i just find that all a bit hard to swallow. i think it is an erotic exchange for them on some level and they just don't want to admit it
But why do they HAVE to?  Why does it matter WHY they do it?  As everyone around here - including myself - is so fond of saying:  "If it works for them, that's great, even if it wouldn't work for me."

When they mention bdsm or kink it is usualy with some kind of disdain, even if only to say - that does not represent me or what i do, we don't enjoy it, it's not fun for us, its a dynamic we need to balance the relationship and make things run smoothly.  They always feel the need to seperate themselves like anyone who enjoys spanking must have cooties or something lol.  i guess it would topple their little kingdoms and make their house of cards come crashing down. 
It seems to me (like I mentioned in a much earlier post on this thread) that, apparently, they need to come up with some sort of rationalization to make it "OK" to engage in spanking.  If they feel the need to have to do so, why is that not OK?  Everyone on these boards may engage in spanking for a very different reason.  Whose to say that some are valid and legitimate and acceptable and some simply are not?  I know what you're saying.  If they want to do it, why act like it's for some other reason that what it probably really is?  Maybe that's just what they need to do to make it feel OK for them.  You and I and many others can proudly admit we like spanking (or whatever we like) and engage in it without feeling we're doing something immoral, sinful, or wrong.  Some can't and have to legitimize their actions by basing it on a more acceptable reason than simply that they enjoy it.  I find that sad and repressive but it works for them so more power to them.
 
Also....you mentioned above that they have the commonality that "spanking is punishment."  So do many of the folks on these and other BDSM boards.  I've read over and over about spanking being utilized as punishment.  For me, that could never work.  I simply love it too much and it would not be a punishment.  As a matter of fact, Master never uses any physical/sexualized things as punishment with me because that's not true punishment to me.  Don't you think that some of those who get punished by spankings could fit the same statement you made above about it being "an erotic exchange for them on some level and they just don't want to admit it?"  They want to assert that it's punishment ONLY and there's nothing sexual about it.  Isn't that the same thing you're saying these folks do?  I don't have to commit an offense to be "punished" by spanking.  Master just does it whenever He wants.  But to others, they may need to feel it is being done only as punishment.  I say whatever works for them is fine.........slave luci


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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 3:56:01 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		RELIGION! Ah, one of my favorite 'dinner topics' for digestion. I try to have enough historical information concerning all religions to piss off just about anyone - Haven't figured out how to get a rise out of a Buddhist yet - some left the house dousing themselves in gasoline looking for a match - but they never raised their voice.

Anyway...Anyone interested in one version at least of how the books that are the Bible became the Bible were determined may want to peruse this website: http://www.thunderministries.com/history/Nicea.html#Nicea 

Much of what is now consider "Christian" came out of the 'Council of Nicea'. Before then, the gospels weren't gospel and Jesus was just another guy/prophet. The role of woman in the church was determined, the "trinity" was created, and a re-write of history was initiated to generate the desired end result - the Roman Catholic Church. Gods & goddesses bless them! They've inspired and trained a large number of sadists and masochists throughout history, me among them. Not to mention all the toys they created, especially during the Inquisition.

Regarding the Catholic Church's "pay now - sin later" annulment program. That represents my last experience with them. At the time I was so entrenched in the operation I had been given the honor of calling Bingo numbers! My cousin wanted to re-marry in the church and my "good standing" with the Church qualified me as a reference. Meeting in the Bishop's office he told me that he felt that my cousin's appeal had merit and he would support it. Remember, an annulment voids the marriage; it would have made his daughter illegitimate. The Bishop however advised that the wedding date may pose a problem. He didn't think he could get the necessary paperwork filed in time with the Vatican. However, he said if I advised my cousin to donate an additional $5,000 to the Church he would expedite the process. My cousin had a civil ceremony, I was very UN-civil with the Bishop. The sad part is, I never got to call Bingo again!

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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 4:21:22 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Of course they can...It is called Catholic hypocrisy, all they do is get there first marriage annulled...kids no problem...we will just pretend it never happened, that way they can get remarried stay in the church and continue to contribute all of their hard earned cash to a Vatican that has the wealth of approximately 15 billion dollars.


Only 15 billion? I'd imagined it was more. Surely you can't be counting land mass and buildings?

That said, yes, hipocrisy is rampant everywhere. Most Catholic churches I've been to, however, are pretty adamant that an annullment means you can't remarry in the church, because you've already shown that you can't keep your holy vows. There's of course some of those who tolerate people getting married outside church, partially for not wanting to go to the drastic step of excommunicating them, and partially because it doesn't "count".

quote:

It was worded poorly....One of the huge problems with the Bible is that Jesus knows all....He knew Peter would betray him three times...etc....So he had to know that Judas would betray him before meeting him....Only makes since...Oops different topic.


Ah, yes, the bits about prescience.

It's not necessarily a problem, depending on how you view things. It could be actual prescience (which I hope not), or it could be prearranged (a bit smoke-and-mirrors for my tastes, but it works), or it could simply be that he's that good a judge of character.

As for Iudas, I covered that bit. Probably prearranged to achieve a goal.

quote:

It is easy to pick just one topic that would only be evident for cultures to come and say, "Wow, how did he know that?".Anything would have given some sort of credibility to what Christ purported himself to be....


If he actually was prescient, then, yes, it would make some sense. Of course, though, there are problems with prescience that I'm sure Sagan is well aware of. Things like the interaction with free will, time paradoxes, and so forth. For all we know, the causual structure of the universe might not be able to support prescience; in which case, it'd be pretty bad to include it.

Or, given that the authors weren't the guy himself, perhaps he did, and nobody paid it any heed. Like, "Wow, the guy knows how far off the Sun is? Shit, he's way cool, and knows everything. I'd better make a note of the relevant stuff he says", or somesuch. To which my 20-20 hindsight reply to the person with that thought would be "Thanks for nothing, man!"

If it were something he could have figured out, however, the atheist crowd would be quick to point that out.

I don't put much stock in it as a problem, but it is an interesting thought.

I think it's more likely he was a man, though, not a god. An inspired man, perhaps, enlightened, certainly. But a man.

IMO, it was supposed to be a living tradition, one person "lighting the spark" in another, but somewhere along the way, that died out, most likely. And with it, any option that we might make some sort of test to verify whether he actually did any miracles or not.



quote:

I said "by man" there were many books being passed around after the death of Jesus...


Oops. Mea culpa. My mind stuck the "a" in there quite on its own.

quote:

The oldest are estimated to have been produced within thirty to forty years after he died....None of these books were written by the disciples...Who, the majority if not all, were illiterate...But the majority of the books that make up "our" bible are thought to have been written within approx. 100 years of Jesus' death.


~nod~

Quite offtopic, but it's interesting to note that after the Romans executed Jesus, they got stuck with Caligula.

It may be just random chance, or it may be that there's something to the idea that G*d might be a tad bit vengeful at times. Or maybe the Catholics are right, and Jesus really is consubstantiate with G*d; I'd certainly be a mite pissed if someone crucified me for teaching people compassion.



quote:

I remember reading about a passage in which Peter asked Christ,(paraphrasing) "That if God was forgiving why people were sent to Hell for all eternity"....Jesus responded, "That their time in Hell was short lived and that all would find the kingdom of God."....This verse did not please the "creators" of the bible not damning enough....I think it can be found in other texts ...Ethiopian perhaps?


Quite possibly.

There are many interesting errors and omissions, quite apart from the apparent redactions.

For instance, Lucifer (or, rather, not in Latin, obviously, but same meaning: the lightbringer, the morning star) is used once to refer to Satan, and once to refer to Jesus. However, in translation, they always translate that word differently about the two. It always seemed to me like there might be a bit more to the story of the adversary than one might think. Like Uriel in Egypt, Satan would seem to be an agent of G*d, not an actual adversary, per se, more like someone who get's stuck with the unpleasant jobs. Like being crucified, maybe. Who knows? Maybe testing Job turned him about, convinced him humanity was worth saving, and he agreed to be sent to earth to give a message and them be the scapegoat (in the biblical sense of the word).

Not a whole lot is known about those parts of the story; there are tie-ins via some of the apocrypha that are a bit interesting, such as relating the Nephilim to the Titans and historical/mythological figures such as Grendel. But, I digress. The point was that, for all we know, there may have been a major argument up there, along the lines of "S: You didn't make these bastards smart enough, why don't you let us smite the bloody buggers? G: Patience, son. Give them a bit longer, they'll come about, I think. S: Don't you get it? They don't care about you, or your teachings. Even the best among them aren't up to snot. Here, I'll prove it with this Job guy. G: No, wai... *expletive* Will you come back up here this instant? S: Fuck you. G: I heard that. S: So effin what? Here, look! *prods Job* G: Bloody hell. I'm remembering this the next time I need someone to go down there! And stop messing with Job. S: Yeah, right! *prods Job some more* Hmm... this ain't right. G: Told you so. Now come back up here! *turns to secretary* Set that poor Job fellow up with some good stuff, will you? And make mine a double espresso. *turns back* Are you back yet? S: *shuffles back up* Okay, I get it. Man, but that guy was impressive! *time passes* G: Hey, Satan! S: Oy, what is it? I'm all emo! Those damn Romans are messing everything up for our guys. G: Glad you feel that way. I have an assignment for you... S: How come I think I'm not going to like this? G: Remember that argument we had about Job back there? S: Not really, no... G: Pity. I do. *kicks Satan off the cloud* Told you you'd pay for it! Now, listen up, you're going to become a little kid, and then you'll grow up, and you'll teach them how it's done. Get it? Oh, and don't call yourself Satan, they don't like that name. S: (falling) Bastard!"

For all we know, that's how it went.

quote:

Just some random thoughts.....And yes, I have found the majority of the Christian right to be cocksuckers as well.


Funny, I've always pegged that as "right", not "Christian right". If you'll pardon the double entendre.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 4:47:37 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

. However, he said if I advised my cousin to donate an additional $5,000 to the Church he would expedite the process. My cousin had a civil ceremony, I was very UN-civil with the Bishop. The sad part is, I never got to call Bingo again!


I feel your pain, my brother....I can only imagine those painful, wicked and sweat filled nightmares where you would wake up screaming ..."B-6" only to realize that those happy days are forever gone and never to be relived.....Thank God that Beth is there to comfort you through these harrowing episodes.

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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 4:50:52 PM   
velvetears


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Status: offline 		i'm not trying to rain on their parade and don't begrudge them at all doing anything they want to do under any assumption they want to make for it.  Just really making an observation mostly.  They are the ones mostly poiting saying "look at them over there, they shouldn't be enjoying it they are "wrong"" not all of them, but many do.   i just find it interesting and slightly amusing that they spend an awful lot of energy and time talking about something they claim is just a domestic function - why not talk about the the division of work and why husbands fix the cars and the women do the laundry - get the point   i guess i just prefer when people can be honest and real and call a spade a spade. 

i agree lots of subs don't like spanking or any kind of pain - and they admit that, yet they submit to their doms out of obedience and enjoy the suffering aspect.  They are at least honest.  And many will admit to it being erotic despite their not liking the pain or enjoying it.

They make a lot more noise about us then we do about them.... basically i am just pointing it out as i see it, not really begrudging them anything.  

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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 5:18:06 PM   
slaveluci


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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears
i'm not trying to rain on their parade and don't begrudge them at all doing anything they want to do under any assumption they want to make for it.  Just really making an observation mostly.  They are the ones mostly poiting saying "look at them over there, they shouldn't be enjoying it they are "wrong"" not all of them, but many do.   i just find it interesting and slightly amusing that they spend an awful lot of energy and time talking about something they claim is just a domestic function - why not talk about the the division of work and why husbands fix the cars and the women do the laundry - get the point  
Yeah, I totally get what you mean.  I haven't seen the links or read anything from the folks you're speaking of but, if they do indeed spend that much time talking about spanking as discipline, maybe they are enjoying it more than they are admitting....lol.
i guess i just prefer when people can be honest and real and call a spade a spade. 
Agreed, but some people just find that too difficult, I suppose. 
They make a lot more noise about us then we do about them.... basically i am just pointing it out as i see it, not really begrudging them anything
Noted....and "amen" to the earlier post about hating the sin and not the sinner.  I couldn't agree more......luci 


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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 6:56:32 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
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From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Why is it that people who have no idea (or very limited knowledge of) what exactly Christian Domestic Discipline (DD) is are so eager to condemn it and ridicule those who choose to live that way?
 
i don't have much knowledge about Gor but, i don't condemn it or criticize those who choose to live a Gorean life.  i also know very little about Wicca and i don't criticize anyone who chooses to live a Wicca way of life.  i don't criticize anyone who chooses to live a way of life that is different from mine.  Why is it that anything with "Christian" in it's name causes some people to automatically shoot it down as hypocrisy, a sham, a bunch of freakin' idiots who don't know what they're doing?  (i'm not saying anyone actually used these phrases, i'm just summing up the general attitude that i have felt from some of the negative comments here)
 
First, before you start trashing someone else's personal choice about how they wish to live their life, why not find out a little something about that way of life? 
 
Second, if your D/s or M/s or Gorean, or BDSM, or whatever way of life isn't so freakin' bizarre that it shouldn't be condemned or ridiculed by others who don't live that way or don't even know anything about it, then why do you think it's okay for you to do the same thing to others? 
 
Third, if Christian Domestic Discipline (or anything else) isn't "your bag" then why not just leave it be?  Why not just let the people who enjoy it, simply enjoy it?  Just because it's not your thing doesn't mean it's not someone else's thing.
 
As far as being a Christian is concerned.  Number 1) Anyone can say they are a Christian.  It doesn't necessarily mean they are.  No one can see what lies in another's heart.  Being a Christian is a personal matter, between that person and their Lord.  Number 2) Christians are not without fault.  They Are Sinners!  That's the first thing they say when they pray for forgiveness and ask Jesus to come into their life.  Christians are Humans.  They are fallible.  They make mistakes.  They screw up.  Sometimes they do wicked things that they later regret and feel horrible about and can punish themselves about more than anyone else ever could.  But, the one thing they all have in common is they have faith and belief in God's forgiveness.  They have faith and belief in God's mercy.  Christians will be judged for their actions, just as all people will be (so the Bible says and i still believe).  They will have to answer to God on their judgment day.  Christians don't get a "Get Out of Jail Free" card.  But, they have the faith and belief that God is merciful and that God loves them.  Is that such a horrible thing that some people have to despise Christians and say despicable things about them, as a group?
 
i don't know what is in Jimmy Swaggart's heart, just as i don't know what is in Jimmy Carter's heart, or what's in George Bush's heart or what's in Billy Graham's heart.  That is between each of them and their Lord.  i only know what is in my heart.  my religion is in my heart.  God knows what's in my heart.  i don't have any idea what will happen to me tomorrow, much less what will happen to me once i leave this life.  But, i have faith that Jesus is walking with me in this life and that God is watching over me and has had His angels protect me from some very seriously dangerous things in my life.  i know that i will have to answer for my sins.  i expect that i will have some 'splainin' to do for some of the things that i have done.  But, i do believe that God will have mercy on my soul because He knows what's in my heart.
 
You can be kinky and be a Christian.  You can be a Dominant and be a Christian.  You can be a submissive and be a Christian.  You can be a Master and be a Christian.  You can be a slave and be a Christian.  You can be a sadist and be a Christian.  You can be a masochist and be a Christian.  You don't need any special classes or have to go through any special training to be a Christian.  You don't even need to read the Bible or go to church or be baptized to be a Christian (although it's recommended). 
 

ALL YOU NEED TO DO TO BE A CHRISTIAN IS TO SAY (with your heart), "Lord, Jesus, I am a sinner and I pray for forgiveness.  I'm asking you to come into my life and be my Savior.  I believe that you are the Son of God and that you died on the cross as payment for my sins and that you were resurrected so that I may have everlasting life.  Thank you, Jesus.  I pray this in the name of the Lord, Amen" 
 

Or, use any such words that you are comfortable with that tells Jesus that you admit to being a sinner and that you do believe in salvation through Jesus and that you want forgiveness.  That's all there is to it.  Of course, if you don't believe in any of this, then don't bother, because it will be meaningless.
 
By the way, as i said before, Christian DD is a whole lot more than simply a "license to spank".  If that's all you think it's about, then you are missing the main point of it.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 7:15:57 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
Status: offline 		Hello joy,
 
If the relationship between a Christian husband and his wife reprises the relationship between Christ and His Church, somebody has a problem. The Son doesn't punish. Judgment is the Father's. A Christian husband who judges and punishes his wife is usurping the role reserved to their Father alone. It's a theological thing.
 
Be well,
 
Kirata
 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/5/2007 7:17:51 PM >

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 7:21:48 PM   
ObedientYYC


Posts: 80
Joined: 8/25/2006
Status: offline 		DD is kinda cool.   Its consensual and it clearly has an underlying eroticism, as others have mentioned.  I'm sure it draws a couple closer emotionally too.   The key is consensual... without that its simply oppression and abuse.

P.S. Religion is not the root of all evil.  Fundamentalist ideology  (of any flavour, Muslim, Christian, Right-wing, Left-wing,  whatever) is the root of all evil.



(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 7:57:06 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Hello Kirata,
 
i appreciate your opinion but, not all believe the same way.  Some believe that God designed women to be slaves to a man, her Husband and Master.  It may not be politically correct and many will disagree, but that doesn't change the fact that there are those who feel the need to encourage women to accept and desire the Bible's teaching as they see it applying to female slavery and to the wife being under the rule of her Husband.  Some believe that the rule of a Husband over the wife includes the right to use discipline, if so needed.  They believe that the man's responsibility to his wife, is as such:  As much as Christ loves the church, instructs us, encourages us, protects us, disciplines us, lays down His life for us; the man is required to do the same for his wife. To do anything less, we fail Christ.

Genesis 3:16
To the woman He said:
"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you."

Ephesians 5:21-24 "Be in subjection to one another in reverence for Christ; wives, to your own husbands, as to the Lord, our Owner. For a husband is lord and master of the wife, in the exact same manner as Christ likewise is Lord and Master of the Church; He Himself being the Savior of the body. Moreover, in the exact same manner as the Church is in subjection to Christ, so also the wives to their husbands, in everything."

Ephesians 6:5-9  "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Work hard, but not just to please your masters when they are watching. As slaves of Christ, do the will of God with all your heart. Work with enthusiasm, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people. Remember that the Lord will reward each one of us for the good we do, whether we are slaves or free."  "And in the same way, you masters must treat your slaves right. Don't threaten them; remember, you both have the same Master in Heaven, and he has no favorites."

slave joy
Owned property of Master David

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Hello joy,
 
If the relationship between a Christian husband and his wife reprises the relationship between Christ and His Church, somebody has a problem. The Son doesn't punish. Judgment is the Father's. A Christian husband who judges and punishes his wife is usurping the role reserved to their Father alone. It's a theological thing.
 
Be well,
 
Kirata
 

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 8:12:05 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

As much as Christ loves the church, instructs us, encourages us, protects us, disciplines us, lays down His life for us; the man is required to do the same for his wife. To do anything less, we fail Christ.


Not to belabor the issue, but I really can't recall an instance. Do you have a reference where Christ administered "discipline" to a sinner?
 
K.
 

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 8:56:30 PM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

Why is it that people who have no idea (or very limited knowledge of) what exactly Christian Domestic Discipline (DD) is are so eager to condemn it and ridicule those who choose to live that way?



I don't agree with it. I have read about it, I have visited Christian DD websites and know enough about it to form my opinion. Why don't I agree with it? Because the whole lifestyle is based on a quotation (or a few) from the Bible that somehow women are inferior to men. I believe that men and women are equal in the eyes of what you call God and this is what I believe as a Buddhist.

However if people want to live their lives that way let them. It's their lives, not mine. And what I think on the subject shouldn't really matter anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

Why is it that anything with "Christian" in it's name causes some people to automatically shoot it down as hypocrisy, a sham, a bunch of freakin' idiots who don't know what they're doing?



I don't automatically shoot down Christians or anyone with any particular set of beliefs and I respect their beliefs. But usually this respect isn't reciprocated by Christians, many of whom feel that their beliefs take precedence over what I believe. I have to take time off Dec 25 and Dec 26, but do I get time off for example on Dec 4? However I don't need time off for any festival or Buddhist ritual. Buddhism is very private, and aside from discussions of a religious nature I keep it very much to myself.

I don't shoot down 'anything' Christian, I don't make assumptions but just go by what I see. There's certain things I don't believe in, the Virgin Birth for example. I also don't believe that God has the image of Man. I don't subscribe to the common practice of regarding something as a sin but then doing it and then asking for forgiveness and expecting to be forgiven. This to me is not only hypocrisy, it is also something of a sham by someone who calls themselves a 'good' Christian or a 'practising' Catholic. But it doesn't bother me either, I'm not that person. They are dealing with their own Karma anyway. Just as I do, I won't say that I have never sinned, I have, and I have also paid for it. But I closely follow the principles of what I believe in and it has a major influence on the way I behave and interact with people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

First, before you start trashing someone else's personal choice about how they wish to live their life, why not find out a little something about that way of life?



I'm not trashing anyone's personal choice about how they wish to live their life, I just have a critical opinion. I was raised as a Scottish Protestant. I entered Buddhism at the age of 17. People are entitled to have their own opinions about Buddhism, and I don't get offended or defensive. They are not me, they have a right to their own opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
But, the one thing they all have in common is they have faith and belief in God's forgiveness. They have faith and belief in God's mercy.


Here we go again, there is one God, but he is to be called God and God is forgiving and merciful because they have faith and believe. What I just cannot accept is the Christian idea that Christianity predominates over all other religions and that they are speaking the Truth.

Personally I gave up faith and exchanged it for knowledge. I KNOW I am subject to the Law of Karma and that whatever I think, say and do has a direct consequence. I don't need an external God to forgive me, for what you call God I call the Dhamma, and it lives right inside me in my heart, I am part of the Dhamma, I am forgiving of myself and of others.

I also know that Jehovah, Allah, the Dhamma and God all mean the same.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
Christians will be judged for their actions, just as all people will be (so the Bible says and i still believe).


This is EXACTLY my point. Who are you, the Church, other Christians, God and whoever else to say and to judge me on how I live my life and my actions?

And you believe that because it's written in a book? Seeing as we are basing our beliefs on a book and no doubt (as most Christians do) quote from it, let me quote you something from one of mine.

"Those who see faults in the faultless, and perceive no wrong in that which is wrong, such men, due to their wrong views go to woeful states."
Dhammapada 318

But the thing is, by quoting the Dhammapada, I am judging you.

However unlike you I don't base my beliefs on a book but from what I experience and see in life, and as long as someone bases their live, their thinking, behaviour and speech on principles and values commonly found in religion - any religion (because when it comes down to it all religions are the same and fulfil the same function) - and this includes for me atheists and agnostics - I perceive that person to be a good person.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
i only know what is in my heart. my religion is in my heart. God knows what's in my heart.


I agree. I've been saying the same thing, and 'God' knows because for me that is where he exists - in my heart. But in the rest of that paragraph you're saying the same thing as me, only you're saying it differently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
You can be kinky and be a Christian. You can be a Dominant and be a Christian. You can be a submissive and be a Christian. You can be a Master and be a Christian. You can be a slave and be a Christian. You can be a sadist and be a Christian. You can be a masochist and be a Christian. You don't need any special classes or have to go through any special training to be a Christian. You don't even need to read the Bible or go to church or be baptized to be a Christian (although it's recommended).


You can be kinky and be a Buddhist. You can be a Dominant and be a Buddhist. You can be a submissive and be a Buddhist. You can be a Master and be a Buddhist. You can be a slave and be a Buddhist. You can be a sadist and be a Buddhist. You can be a masochist and be a Buddhist. But you do need training and you have to follow The Path, observe the Five Precepts and follow the 'Middle Way' and Eightfold Path. Otherwise it's meaningless calling yourself a Buddhist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy
You don't need any special classes or have to go through any special training to be a Christian. You don't even need to read the Bible or go to church or be baptized to be a Christian (although it's recommended).



ALL YOU NEED TO DO TO BE A CHRISTIAN IS TO SAY (with your heart), "Lord, Jesus, I am a sinner and I pray for forgiveness. I'm asking you to come into my life and be my Savior. I believe that you are the Son of God and that you died on the cross as payment for my sins and that you were resurrected so that I may have everlasting life. Thank you, Jesus. I pray this in the name of the Lord, Amen"



Or, use any such words that you are comfortable with that tells Jesus that you admit to being a sinner and that you do believe in salvation through Jesus and that you want forgiveness. That's all there is to it.


Is this a sales pitch for 'The Easy Way To Heaven'? Is this what is written in the Bible or based on the teachings of Jesus? I think many Christians would have an issue with this POV somehow.

I'm posting on this board because it was posted on this board and therefore open for discussion. Far from it for me to say that being a Christian is wrong, or for that matter practising Christian DD is wrong, because I don't believe for one minute that being a Christian is wrong or practising Christian DD is wrong, who am I to say?

All I am saying is that I don't agree with it for the points I've already raised and it's something that I, me, personally, individually don't believe in. I just accept it.

Just as I accept that you believe what you believe in and everyone else for that matter. Religion is individual and you have to find your own way through life and your own beliefs.

I wish you well.



_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to BondageTopJere)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 9:24:52 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

As much as Christ loves the church, instructs us, encourages us, protects us, disciplines us, lays down His life for us; the man is required to do the same for his wife. To do anything less, we fail Christ.


Not to belabor the issue, but I really can't recall an instance. Do you have a reference where Christ administered "discipline" to a sinner?
 
K.
 


Here are a few.

Revelation 2:21-24  21) "I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling."   22) "So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways."   23) "I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."  24) "Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you)"
 
Revelation 3:19  "Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline."

1 Corinthians 11:32 "When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world."

Psalm 94:12  Blessed is the man you discipline, O LORD, the man you teach from your law


slave joy
Owned property of Master David

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 9:46:24 PM   
slavegirljoy


Posts: 1207
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: North Carolina, USA
Status: offline 		Thank you for sharing your opinion.  What works for you is what works for you.  What works for others is what works for them.  If you don't agree with a particular way of life then that way of life isn't for you.  Just as the way you choose to live your life isn't for everyone else.  Domestic Discipline isn't for everyone.  It's wrong for some people and right for others.  Just like D/s or M/s is wrong for some people and right for others.
 
i'm glad that you can be a Buddhist and be kinky or be a Dominant or a submissive or a Master or a slave or a sadist or a masochist. 
 
i don't judge you or anyone else.  i do believe that God will judge us all.  That is my belief and i don't expect everyone else to have that same belief.
 
i'm glad that you don't shoot down anything that is Christian, some people do. 
 
There is no easy way to Heaven.  Like i said, i don't believe that Christians have a "Get Out of Jail Free" card.  i believe that i will have to face my judgment and answer for my wrongful actions.  i just believe that God is merciful, that God loves me, that God loves us all so much that He sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross as payment for our sins and was resurrected so that we may have eternal life.  That is what i believe.  i respect that you have different beliefs.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

(in reply to stella40)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/5/2007 10:38:04 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		Thank you, joy.
 
K.
 

(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/6/2007 1:43:48 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		slavegirljoy,

I think you missed a few relevant quotes. But that's not important.

Note also that the Bible says similar things about male slaves, for which there are several provisions. In fact, most churches had slaves until after the US abolished them. The Bible, per se, doesn't condemn slavery. It condemns unlawful slavery; specifically, "stealing" someone into slavery who hasn't been legally made a slave, and stealing a slave that is the property of another. There is a clear admonition to slaves not to seek their freedom from slavery in the same sections as the latter quotes you used.

Either way, not terribly important, though.

I doubt consensual slavery is frowned upon, and I doubt it is a matter of faith that wives be slaves to their husbands.

An interesting question, though, raised by your post, is what your take is on Lilith (Lilitu)?

In the Jewish mythology, which is the basis for any Christian mythology that has any connections to its roots (Jesus was a devout Jew), G*d originally created Adam and Lilith. The latter refused to be subservient, as Adam demanded that she be, and they were seperated. Then G*d created Eve from Adam, as a "lesser" being, intended to be subservient to him, and thus give him what he needed.

Considering the patriarchal culture that the faith originated in, and the implied transcendence of any godhood, then- to the extent that one reads any literal or metaphorical truth into the creation mythos- it would not seem unlikely to me that Lilith were given a subservient Adam of her own, and spawned her own offspring with him. Or, possibly, as some have suggested, went on to become the lover of one of the angels or somesuch instead; some sources posit Lucifer, originally the brightest of the angels, as this hypothetical lover.

Also, bear in mind that when Adam and Eve left Eden, they did so into the land of Canaan, which was already settled by people at the time, as clearly stated: Cain and Abel married women of Canaan. I'm not positing that these were the offspring of Lilith, but rather that, to the extent that there is historical truth to any of this, G*d essentially originated the tribes of Israel by creating two "greater" humans and one or two "lesser" humans, whose offspring he then watched over as his own.

Then there's the whole bit about "I (sing.) will make man in our (pl.) image", and the bits in that section that indicate that the creation figure in Biblical mythology was one among several Elohim; perhaps, even, an angel, rather than G*d him/her/itself.

Considering the tie-in with Lucifer being a title given both to Satan and to Jesus, and the correspondences in other mythologies, it does not seem inconceivable that Lucifer went out and made his own little "playpen" and two humans to go with it, and then followed them for a long time (essentially making him the Old Testament G*d), before finally he was incarnated among them as Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary, in order to explain to them that they should be following the G*d, not himself.

Lots of thoughts.

Your input would be interesting.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from your faith- I'm something along the lines of a Christian seeker myself- just trying to see what your take is on various elements of the underlying theology and such of it all.

I had some other comments I was going to make, but I'm going to have to skip that, as I don't have the Papyrus of Ani in front of me at the moment. Basically, some stuff about Moses and tie-ins between the Egyptian faiths and the Judeo-Christian faiths, along with some tie-ins between events in the Bible that suggest a kind of war-of-the-gods things going on between G*d and the Egyptian ones, and a bit about the geography of the whole thing. If anyone else has the Papyrus of Ani lying around (I do, but I don't know where it is), and this rings a bell, please fill in the blanks for me.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 100
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