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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/6/2007 6:42:47 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

To answer your previous request. In John Chapter 8 [...] "You are of your father, the devil and it is your will to practice the lusts and gratify the desires of your father " [...]


As I said, I'm not necessarily positing my (hopefully) amusing theory over the Jesus/Lucifer theme as true.

But I would point out that the verse in question, also in my translation, does not appear to make reference to Lucifer, as such. Which means it doesn't entirely prevent me from entertaining it as an amusing diversion, at least.

quote:

Also the verses that i should have references in relationship to Jesus using a whip on the money changers was John 2: 13-16 where it talks about Him making a scourge of cords and driving them out of the temple.


Sounds pretty threatening. I doubt they'd like to find out whether he'd be willing to strike them; remember that people are apt to judge the methods and motives of others by those they themselves have. One of the other citations indicated that what drove them back, instead, was that they knew that he had a bunch of people at his back who could easily become an angry mob.

It's not a big deal, either way, as any human can lose their temper, but I can't recall any instance where he actually did hurt someone.

It does answer the question, though. Thank you for taking the time and effort for me.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to heartfeltsub)
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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/6/2007 11:08:48 PM   
slavegirljoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

You can be kinky and be a Christian.  You can be a Dominant and be a Christian.  You can be a submissive and be a Christian.  You can be a Master and be a Christian.  You can be a slave and be a Christian.  You can be a sadist and be a Christian.  You can be a masochist and be a Christian.  You don't need any special classes or have to go through any special training to be a Christian.  You don't even need to read the Bible or go to church or be baptized to be a Christian (although it's recommended).  
 



ALL YOU NEED TO DO TO BE A CHRISTIAN IS TO SAY (with your heart), "Lord, Jesus, I am a sinner and I pray for forgiveness.  I'm asking you to come into my life and be my Savior.  I believe that you are the Son of God and that you died on the cross as payment for my sins and that you were resurrected so that I may have everlasting life.  Thank you, Jesus.  I pray this in the name of the Lord, Amen"  
 


Or, use any such words that you are comfortable with that tells Jesus that you admit to being a sinner and that you do believe in salvation through Jesus and that you want forgiveness.  That's all there is to it.  Of course, if you don't believe in any of this, then don't bother, because it will be meaningless.

I would go a step further.  You can be a christian and a woman or man, a female or male dominant. sadist or masochist or swtch or gay.  But those words you posted on what a person just needs to say to become a christian is pointless, irrelevant and useless.
 
i agree.  i didn't include everyone who can be a Christian.  i thought that might be excessive.  i was making this statement because the discussion was concerning Christian Domestic Discipline, which is a way of life that married Christian men and women follow.  Some have posted remarks about this being a "sanitized" version of D/s kink.  i just wanted to point out that it is not contrary to being a Christian to be in D/s or to be kinky.
 
i don't consider the words that i prayed to be pointless, irrelevant and useless.  Those are the words that i pray every day.  They mean something to me.  And, i said that you can use any such words that you are comfortable with that tells Jesus that you admit to being a sinner and that you do believe in salvation through Jesus and that you want forgiveness. 
 
quote:

You can't just admit to being a sinner, if you don't understand the sin.  Those would be empty and crass words that you are uttering and don't even get.   That is like the worse lie you can get anyone to buy into, in the hope they will be 'saved' at the end of the day.  That is like someone saying 'trust me, I'm a doctor' when they haven't even studied and gained the relevant qualifications.
 
Not that there is a degree in 'Being Saved' - but you can't just say 'hey - I am a christian because I admit I am a sinner so therefore god loves me' when you don't even understand the concept of what god considers 'sin'.  You don't just say it - you have to know it and believe it.
 
Peace



i agree with this also, which i why i stated that you need to SAY (with your heart), in other words know it to be true within your very soul.  i do know what my sins are and i live with that knowledge every day and i ask God to forgive me for my sins. 
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 2:01:17 AM   
mons


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greetings

i am wirting again. what does it matter that i believe in god and you may not? what does it matter to you. you seem angry why has a christian made you feel bad for your bdsm belfies ? if so turn the other cheek. but i would not go to chruch and tell anyone of my secert life no way this will stop whatever or whon ever is bothering you

i wish you luck to all

mons (god bless you)

(in reply to BondageTopJere)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 5:39:17 AM   
slavegirljoy


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quote:

joy -
The female quantity mentioned in Revelation, was potentially the 'church' - not an individual woman who was to be 'disciplined'.
 
That is the very point i was making.  That's why i wrote that those who follow a Christian Domestic Discipline way of life base their beliefs on:

quote:

As much as Christ loves the church, instructs us, encourages us, protects us, disciplines us, lays down His life for us; the man is required to do the same for his wife. To do anything less, we fail Christ.

 
quote:

 
Also none of the examples you gave can be directly attributed to being Christ. (Only the corinth one, and even that is disputable, as it did come from paul).

 
 
The Book of Revelation was written by the apostle John.  It documents what Jesus revealed to John. 
 
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John (Revelation 1:1)  2) who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, "Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore" (Revelation 1:17-18). 
i use the New King James Version, "Translated out of the Original Tongues and with Previous Translations Diligently Compared and Revised", published in 1977 by Thomas Nelson INC, Nashville, TN.  All the words in quotations are attributed to be direct quotes from Jesus. This book was written by the apostle John when he was a captive on the island of Patmos (verse 9), in the Aegean Sea, 40 miles off the coast of Asia Minor (modern- day Turkey), during the reign of the Roman emperor Domitian (81-96), who was one of the most vicious persecutors of the church and it dates from about 95 A.D The first part of the book is a collection of letters specifically addressed to seven churches that form a rough circle in what is now called Asia Minor. One of the 7 Letters of Jesus to the 7 Churches (2-3)...was to the church in the city of Thyatira, which was about 40 miles east of Pergamos. 
Christ says about this congregation: "I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols" (Revelation 2:19-20).  
21) "And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent."22) "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. "23) "I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. "24) "Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden"  
 
 
quote:

DD does centre on female discipline.  I believe alot of people either ignore the fact that the bible never speaks male and female but of man and wife and is a very metaphorical book.       
Peace
 
The gospels and the letters of the apostles were all written after Jesus' death.  They are written as firsthand accounts of what each saw during their time as a discipline of Christ and they quote what they heard Jesus say.  Jesus often taught using parables.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 5:45:31 AM   
charlestonscmilk


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http://www.sexinchrist.com/fist.html I thought many of you might be amused, surprised and or shocked and or disgusted by this website. There are several topics. Scroll down to the bottom of the page... Of course some of you will take it literally and use it as a reason to do what it is you wish to do.Either way... enjoyYours in kink.C

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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 5:50:55 AM   
darkinshadows


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I don't believe you have understood my point, in the same way as yours (obviously) hasn't reached me.
Is all good.
 
Peace


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 6:04:11 AM   
slavegirljoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HybridMoments

In regards to the whole quote on asking our "lord Jesus" for forgivness, I really dislike the whole deification of Jesus and find it questionable, and to a point distasteful  (Notice I say distasteful, not wrong) Would anyone explain it more to me? Maybe I'll change my mind about the matter. I did hear that Arienism is a similer (and thoroughly dead) approach to the though. (Arienism isn't to beconfused with the more populer Aryanism...the meanings are amazingly dfferent.)


Is Jesus God? 

Each person must decide for themself if they believe in God, if they believe that Jesus is God, if they believe in salvation through Jesus.   i don't ask you or expect you to change your mind based on what i say.  You need to find the answer for yourself and decide whether you believe or not.  To me, that's what FAITH is all about.  It is a personal discovery that each one makes.
 
i have seen this age old question many times and the following is the answer that i believe is true. 
 
Is Jesus God?
No legitimate scholar today denies that Jesus is a historic figure that walked on this earth about 2,000 years ago, that he did remarkable wonders and acts of charity, and that He died a horrible death on a Roman cross just outside Jerusalem. The emotionally-charged dispute focuses specifically on whether Jesus was God incarnate who rose from the dead three days after His Crucifixion.  Is Jesus God?  The Only Alternatives
Many people have dealt with this "spiritual" dispute by intellectually accepting Jesus as a great man, great teacher, or great prophet.
 However, Jesus and His inspired followers didn't mince words when they declared Him to be God (John 10:30-38, Matthew 16:13-17, Mark 14:61-64, John 14:6, Hebrews 1:8, Colossians 1:16, John 12:40-41 [quoting Isaiah 6:1-10]).  Therefore, any type of intellectual compromise calling Jesus a "good man" is logically inconsistent. Why? Because there are really only three legitimate alternatives for the identity of Jesus Christ.  He is either a liar, a lunatic or our Lord and God. Since Jesus, himself, claimed to be God, His claims are either true or false.    If false, He must have been a liar, deliberately misleading the multitudes.   Or, He was a lunatic, sincerely believing Himself to be God, when in reality He was just a man.   However, if Jesus was a "good man," as most people now agree, how then could He be both good and crazy, or good and a liar?  There is only one logically consistent alternative - He must have been telling the truth.  In addition to the logical inconsistency, the remarkable historical, archaeological and manuscript evidence shows that Jesus was neither a liar nor a lunatic. Again, the only position left is that His claim is true. Jesus is Lord and God.  
Only you can answer that question for yourself.  It is my belief (and the belief of about 2 billion Christians, worldwide) that Jesus was not a liar and was not a lunatic and was not just a "good man", He was telling the truth and Jesus is God.
 
slave joy
Owned property of Master David


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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 10:16:26 AM   
SirDominic


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quote:

Oh wait, the tendency of human beings to Other and oppress has nothing to with religion, and everything to do with an aspect of human nature. Oopsie!


Great rant Faramir. Enjoyed it immensely. Unfortunately the tendency of human beings to do all the evil things you mentioned has EVERYTHING to do with religion. And how people choose to practice it. You are right, it is a dark aspect of human nature, and various religions over the centuries have been more adept at abusing and misusing that trait than any other force in the history of the planet.

Nonreligious governments have had their share, of course, but they are pikers compared to religion.

Oopsie back at ya.

Namaste, Dominic

Oh, and by the way, no matter how insulting you become, am not going to descend to your level. Don't you just hate that!

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 4:35:40 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic


Nonreligious governments have had their share, of course, but they are pikers compared to religion.



I don't know about that...... add up the horrors done by Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, etc......

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 4:45:16 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

Nonreligious governments have had their share, of course, but they are pikers compared to religion.


I don't know about that...... add up the horrors done by Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, etc......

The argument turns on how you define "religion". To my thinking, they all go in the same basket.
 
K.
 

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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 7:17:11 PM   
ObedientYYC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

However, if Jesus was a "good man," as most people now agree, how then could He be both good and crazy, or good and a liar?

There is only one logically consistent alternative - He must have been telling the truth.


Does a false religious belief make you "not good"?  Obviously not since there are many many good people of all different religions, and they can't all be correct in their beliefs.

Its not a huge step from false religious belief to false religious delusion.  If Jesus was a man who took that step,  I don't see why its inconsistent to think that he was still a good person and genuinely cared for others.

I have great respect for Christians and their values.  I just don't think that you can arrive at any kind of faith through a process of logic.   It has to just be pure faith.

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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 7:27:31 PM   
justheather


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FR:

Ain't nothin sanitized 'bout crotchless pantaloons.


_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to Faramir)
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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 9:13:45 PM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic
Nonreligious governments have had their share, of course, but they are pikers compared to religion.


You're right.

Take Pol Pot and the Killing Fields for example.  Nothing.  Pikers compared to religion.  I mean, 2,000,000 human beings tortured and mass slaughtered, whole fields of bleached skulls and bones.  Nothing big.  Pikers.  I mean, who cares--a bunch of Cambodians, right?

And Soviet Russia, I mean, it's nothing.   Seven million killed in genocide in Ukranian--so what?  65 million of their own citizens slaughtered in mass democide over a centrury--big fucking deal.  Pikers.  I mean, all you have to do is watch a Discovery Channel special on the Crusades to see that RELIGION IS THE BOOGEYMAN.  This stuff?  Pffft.  Let's face it--as Dominic has so ably pointed out, the N.K.V.D. is nothing compared to the Anglican Church for mass murder.

Oh, and you'll hear the uneducated, lying religionosity types whine about China.  Wahhhhh, they will cry, 8,000,000 kiled during the Great Revolution.  Wahhhh, 7,000,000 killed during the Great Leap forward.  And on and on they go, 10 million in the great famine, 7 million in the Cultural Revolution, blah blah blah.  Big deal.  So what if 35 million people died under an a regime that banned religion.  They're Chinese--there's a billion of them anyways.  Pikers, if you ask me.

You know what is a perfect example of how religion is the source of all evil, and human suffering is directly correlated to religion? The Rwandan massacre.  First off, 3/4 of a million Africans isn't any big deal.  As a really wise man, full of spiritual wisdom once said, "That's Pikers stuff,"  I mean--who cares?  They're Africans for crying out loud.  Look, we have real issues to worry about, serious shit, like those fucking Xstians trying to get rid of sex-ed in school and stop condoms from being passed out.  Anyways, as I was pointing out, some of those bullshitting, religionalistic people will point out that the Hutu massacre of Tutsis was based on tribal/caste identification.  They'll point out the roots of the conflict going back to the Tutsis migration/invasion, they'll point out that they shared the same religious framework, and that it all boiled over in 1994.  What they don't want you to know is the Belgium was the colonial power in Rwanda, and favored the Tutsis, thereby exacerbating tensions.  Belgium is a Catholic country!  Don't you see--this wasn't a political struggle based on tribe/caste--the Pope did it!  Belgium was the colonial power, Belgium is Catholic, ergo the Pope ordered the massacre.  Q.E.D.

Dominic, you're a fucking genius.  Anyone can clearly see that all significant suffering in the world is directly related to religion.  Where you have religion, you have evil, and where you have religion supressed, flowers sprout and children splay in gum-drop castles by licorice forests.

Please man, whatever you do, don't leave that high post you're at.  Don't stoop to the level I've been on.  Those "scholars" with their "facts" and "education" and "research," when all they need is someone like you, up there, to just say something like "Religions over the centuries have been more adept at abusing and misusing that trait than any other force in the history of the planet."

It just cuts through all the clutter of this stupid "history" and "reality" thing.

It's like a koan, man.

NAMASTE!!!

_____________________________

True masters, true subs and slaves, X many years in the lifestyle, Old Guard this and High Protocol that--it's like a convention of D&D nerds were allowed to have sex once, and they decided to make a religion out of it.

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RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 10:00:49 PM   
SadisticDaddy68


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not sure if this was posted already but at the bottom of that page this was posted:

Eroticism: 

Though we recognize by its very nature this subject can be erotic, we will keep this website as clean and wholesome as possible.  However, we will not seek to deny the erotic nature of some CDD marriages as we believe it is a natural consequence of following God's plan.  After all, He created eroticism to be enjoyed inside a Christian marriage.

so much for the stance that they deneign the sexual energy that can be found in these actions..... goes back to reading.

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/7/2007 11:53:41 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

The Book of Revelation was written by the apostle John.  It documents what Jesus revealed to John. 


The Apocalypse of John (ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ) relates a vision that John had, which was supposedly given to him by an angel, sent by G*d. As such, it does not in any way document the life and teachings of Jesus, although it does claim that the vision sees him bear witness to what G*d is saying.

It appears that the first vision is little more than a message to the Turkish communities of Christians, specifically the churches in Epheseus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatria, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea; given that the Third Ecumenical Council took place in the church by Epheseus, it could well be that this is a warning to the churches that they are straying from the path (which historical evidence tends to bear out).

Either way, the book is fairly controversial, and several argued against including it in the canonical books of the New Testament. Of course, it has also been suggested, even by many Christians, that it may well have been a sign of mental illness, rather than divine inspiration.

If you wish to include the Revelations in the Bible, why do you not count the Apocalypse of Peter and the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter, for instance?

Also, there have been serious contentions that John of Patmos, the author, may not be the apostle John.

If one is to include the apocalypses, one might as well include the Apocalypses of Abraham, Baruch, Daniel, Elijah, Ezra, Hezekiah, Mary, Paul, Peter (both versions), Thomas,  Sedrach, Stephen, Zephaniah, and so forth, along with the Assumption of Moses, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Iudas, the Gospel of Peter, the Book of Enoch, the Book of Noah, and more.

Or even start including the original sources from the Zoroastrian faiths...

In short: Inclusion of the Apocalypse of John of Patmos is entirely arbitrary, and it does not deal with the life or teachings of Jesus.

quote:

This book was written by the apostle John when he was a captive on the island of Patmos


Been a while since I studied the revelations, but WP notes that he was exiled, not a captive.

quote:

Christ says about this congregation: "[...]Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols[...]"


Idolatry and adultery were among the three unforgivable "sins" of the Jewish faith, and Jesus was a Jew, let's not forget. It does, however, seem that he's taken on more of an Old Testament G*d personality if these are his words, for in life he was not as violent.

Or, of course, you could just view it in the straightforward manner: he's saying that she'll get STDs and die, which is a huge part of the reason for the sex-related laws in the Bible.

Eating the remains of sacrifices might not be too healthy, either.

In short, it could very well be seen as him saying: "this woman isn't a prophetess, but a madwoman, and she's messing herself up while leading others astray; this will kill her in the end, and probably her children, too, along with whoever is stupid enough to follow her. do something about it."

Note also that the idolatry could be the dawning practice of using the cross as a form of worship, in effect making the cross an idol. It may not have taken the same form as the modern cross, especially given that Jesus appears to have been crucified on a pole, and that the cross has been regarded as an intersection of the physical and spiritual worlds long before that time (the earliest I know of being the ),  and was featured in the Coptic churches.

quote:

The gospels and the letters of the apostles were all written after Jesus' death.  They are written as firsthand accounts of what each saw during their time as a discipline of Christ and they quote what they heard Jesus say.  Jesus often taught using parables.


Indeed, Jesus often taught using parables.

And trying to read anything literal into parables is missing the point.

As for the gospels, they weren't writing them down along the way, so this is essentially the story of the part of his life that they find relevant, to the extent they are familiar with it, and going by memory alone. They are rather divergent, as you probably noticed.

One would also point out that one of the main themes of the Gospel of Mark- the first one recorded according to Brown, and the source for much of the other Gospels- has profound implications:

The disciples don't "get" it.

Given human history, I'm not surprised that the ones who didn't "get" the message are the ones who went on to shape mainstream perception of what the faith is about, and that they suppressed the views of those who did.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/8/2007 12:05:08 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: charlestonscmilk

http://www.sexinchrist.com/fist.html I thought many of you might be amused, surprised and or shocked and or disgusted by this website.


Thank you. Extremely amused; none of the other three.

It's entirely common for people to selectively interpret passages from the Bible, counting them in support of their views where they fit, ignoring those who don't. "The Book of what I was going to do anyway", in short.

I must say that one of those passages actually did seem (though I didn't go look it up to check the context) to portray an example of fisting in the premodern era, which is not at all surprising, but that it made the cut, so to speak, is a slight bit surprising, perhaps. I doubt it has any significance, though.

There's nothing substantial in the Bible that indicate fisting isn't a sacrament like any other form of sex.

That they'd argue the point only shows they feel guilty about it.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to charlestonscmilk)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/8/2007 12:30:35 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavegirljoy

[...] if they believe in salvation through Jesus. [...]


Would you care to elaborate on what you mean by "salvation through Jesus" ?

Seriously, I'm just confused (language barrier); there are several interpretations of that which make sense, many of which are not espoused by any Christian churches I've seen.

As for my own views...

If there ever was any "original sin", as the Catholics think, Jesus probably dispensed with that, along with any other notion of "collective sin". Perhaps whatever had been done up to that point, or somesuch. I dunno.

But I think the proper sense of things isn't to worship Jesus, but rather to live by his example against the backdrop of the Jewish faith he espoused, and discern his deeper meaning of personal spiritual liberation (largely contained in texts not included in the Bible). Basically, it's not about Jesus forgiving you, or providing you with salvation.

IMO, Jesus just said that salvation and forgiveness are within our ability to grant ourselves. No help required.
 
quote:

and that He died a horrible death on a Roman cross just outside Jerusalem.


Early church texts actually suggest this wasn't the case.

Variations over the theme include ascribing the execution to the rabbis, rather than the romans, saying he was never killed, and so forth; in either case, I've seen no mention of a cross in my (admittedly sporadic) readings, but rather a pole.

quote:

He is either a liar, a lunatic or our Lord and God.


Actually, Jesus was referred to by demons as the Son of G*d, so it seems odd to me that they wouldn't realize he was G*d himself if such was the case. Either way, Jesus told them to shut up about it.

The logic is a fallacy, though, specifically a false dichotomy.

quote:

how then could He be both good and crazy,


I am.

Somehow I don't think one would care to argue that I can pull off more than Jesus. 

quote:

or good and a liar?


Depends on how you define "lie" and "good", for one thing.

But, more to the point, there are contradictions between verses that entail lies in themselves, if the work is taken to be anything more than a collection of translations of the heavily redacted writings of mere men.

Again, not trying to change your faith, just curious as to hold these particular positions on its interpretation.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to slavegirljoy)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/8/2007 12:55:44 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

Unfortunately the tendency of human beings to do all the evil things you mentioned has EVERYTHING to do with religion. And how people choose to practice it. You are right, it is a dark aspect of human nature, and various religions over the centuries have been more adept at abusing and misusing that trait than any other force in the history of the planet.


I'm generally the first to point fingers at the problems of organized religion, once having gone as far as to paraphrase ... Enoch, I think? ... into "To them, ascribe all sin." (The original passage dealing with Ǎzazēl; apparently, someone thought make-up and metalworking was the origin of everything bad- resistance to change is nothing new.)

But I think you have confused the causal relationship.

Basically, humans have a dark side to their nature, yes. This leads, as Faramir said, to people abusing their religions as a justification for exercising that dark nature. And it also leads to people abusing religious organizations to exercise that dark nature, which then propagates down the ranks.

This is no different from armies, for instance, where there are individual members of an army who will commit atrocities, and there at the same time exists the potential for the leaders of an army to direct the entirety of the army to commit organized atrocities, such as seen in e.g. WW2 (to use an uncontroversial example).

Hence, it's not religion per se that is the root cause, and most religions indeed reject the dark side of humanity. Instead, it is the human tendency to blindly follow causes, to not seek to understand, and so forth that is the root cause.

Religious people, religions, or religious organizations for that matter, are not intrinsically a problem, just like warriors, codes, or armies, are not intrinsically a problem. The problem arises when these are taken in the wrong way, whether at the individual level, or at the level which leads.

quote:

Nonreligious governments have had their share, of course, but they are pikers compared to religion.


I don't agree with this assessment. But I posit that it is entirely beside the point, by the line of reasoning offered above.

quote:

Oh, and by the way, no matter how insulting you become, am not going to descend to your level. Don't you just hate that!


I, for one, love it, and try (but fail) to stick to the same approach. Keep it up.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/8/2007 12:57:48 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The argument turns on how you define "religion". To my thinking, they all go in the same basket.


Indeed. I would not define religion in a way that applies there, but they do go in the same basket. Essentially, it's not religion that's at fault, but another factor, and that factor is common to both atrocities committed in the name of religions and the other ones mentioned.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: For those of a christian bent.... - 6/8/2007 1:04:49 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ObedientYYC

I just don't think that you can arrive at any kind of faith through a process of logic. It has to just be pure faith.


I reject that notion, being a fairly rational and systematic person with a good grasp of scientific method. The problem with the arguments supplied by slavegirljoy isn't that they're applying logic to belief, but that they are using logical fallacies. This is very common when people try to use that kind of rhetoric to defend their views.

Rhetoric without correct logic is either rambling or willful deception.

I apply my cognitive abilities to matters of faith, particularly when it comes to texts that describe religious concepts or figureheads. I have found it to work very well, and to quite universally support different conclusions than those made by a majority of those who publish "logical" bits of "evidence" to sway others to their position.

Perhaps this is because I'm not trying to sway others to my position, but rather to find my position.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to ObedientYYC)
Profile   Post #: 160
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