RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (Full Version)

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szobras -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/6/2007 10:24:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

As many Native Americans say, "Custer had it coming!"



And, I doubt that the American flag will be flown in honor of those that die overseas there either, like the American flag from the Battle of Little Big Horn is in honor to this day at Pine Ridge.



texancutie -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/6/2007 10:36:29 AM)

Custers not my folk hero.  Though I think it all depends on who you talk to.  The Battle of Little Big Horn was a triumph, and the last victory in the struggle to save indigenous land and preserve our way of life.  Though the battle to preserve culture is still ongoing.

Anyway, he underestimated and just got ahead of himself.  Besides I read somewhere that Custer's column was sent out just to scout, and not attack.  He really had no reinforcements, other than the 2 other armies that were sent out with his army.   Missing, were reinforcements such as cavalry, infantry and Gatling guns.  He also divided his column into 3 parts, which was very disasterous.  The theory as to why he did that, is that he could have been trying to reserve more victory for himself.  Definitely not someone to look up to, since apparently the guy only thought of his glorious self.



philosophy -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/6/2007 10:40:21 AM)

......prety much the gist of what i have heard about Custer......and yet, and yet, it seems to me that to a significent number of people he is remembered as a figure of heroic failure.
You'd think lessons would have been learned........



HaveRopeWillBind -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/6/2007 2:35:07 PM)

As it happens I live near Custer's boyhood home. He actually came from a family that was famous for military service and most of his male ancestors had excelled at military command. This put him under a lot of pressure to make good in the family business. During the Civil War he won many battles not by tactical superiority, but more by waging battles of attrition. He was well known for simply sending more men into batle than his enemy could muster and so after huge numbers of casualties on both sides he would claim victory in battle. Years later when he arrived at Little Big Horn he may have been suffering from the delusion that he was in fact a good tactician. By dividing his forces he lost the one tactic that had worked for him in the past, but given the number of attackers that may not have made much difference and saved many lives in the end.

I believe that the notion that Custer was a tragic hero comes mostly from sensationalized news accounts of the time that used headlines like, "Massacre." Today most who look at the battle from a historical perspective conclude that Custer was not competent as a commander and let hubris make his choices for him. I don't think that he is still considered an heroic figure by many.



philosophy -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/6/2007 5:00:22 PM)

..i'm wondering if his tragic hero status is more a product of the inevitably unfocussed view of the US abroad. All cultures present a somewhat distorted view of themselves abroad. As a Brit i often have to disabuse people in North America of the notion that, at 4pm, i have to drink tea or die. Perhaps Custer's reputation is more global than local.



Nosathro -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/6/2007 9:18:11 PM)

I think comparing Bush to Custer is not really a fair analogy. Custer was straight forward in what ever he did.  He never attempted to decieve anybody nor hide anything.  It is true that both Bush and Custer had an inner circle of supporters who thought like them, Bush calls his group the "Vulcans" while Custer group were mostly relatives.  I think Custer was more like Clinton, it is well documented that he had numrous affairs with women during his marriage, he sent letters back to her giving the details as well as his fantasies when a woman caught his attention, this include a few Native American woman. 
 
For some clarification...Custer was Commander of the 7th Calvary Regiment, about 800 men and officers.  You would not find any infantry in a Calvary unit, infantry has in own units.  Yes Custer did have Gatlin Guns and did not bring them, reason being they would slow him down.  Also miltary doctrine at the time had Gatlin Guns used only for defensive use.  Custer was ordered by General Cook to the Little Big Horn to assist Cook in forcing the Indians to a Reservation.  Cook however was already beaten back by Indian attacks on his colum.  Custer own Indian Scouts warned him days before the battle that the Indians at the Little Big Horn knew Custer was coming and were prepared.  This was done in front of many of the units officers and men.  Custer still informed the unit he was going to attack the Little Big Horn.  It is said one of the Scouts striped to a loin cloth.  Custer became in raged over this and demend to know why the Scout striped.  It is said the Scout replied that Custer had done everything he promised him, to take him to his enemies and now he was preparing to meet his ancestors, for it was a good day to die.  Custer dismissed the Indian Scouts however many remained and followed Custer into the battle.



Vendaval -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/6/2007 9:28:58 PM)

Here is a link to Custer's infamous massacre of the
Cheyenne Chief Black Kettle and his tribe at Sand Creek,
prior to the Battle of the Little Bighorn -


"Genocide on  the Great Plains"
 by James Horsley

" Almost four years later to the day on November 27, 1868, the 7th Regiment of United State Cavalry, commanded by Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer, attacked Black Kettle's band again, but this time while the village was camped on the Washita River in Indian Territory, now the state of Oklahoma. The village was about 100 miles from Fort Cobb. Black Kettle and Little Robe had just returned from that fort the day before following a meeting with Colonel W.B. Hazen in an attempt to surrender. However, Hazen refused to accept their surrender and the chiefs were told to discuss peace directly with General Philip Sheridan, who, he informed the chiefs, was in the field at that time.

Immediately following the chiefs' return to their band, Sheridan's troops, under the command of Custer, charged the Cheyenne village at dawn, killing more than a hundred men, women and children of the tribe, including Chiefs Black Kettle and Little Rock. The village was burned and 800 of the Indian horses shot. (Hoig, 1976)

[Quote by Evan S. Connell, inserted by JS Dill:
"The fight in the village lasted only a few minutes, although several hours were required to finish off isolated warriors who hid in gullies and underbrush. Custer's tally listed 103 fighting men killed. In truth, only 11 could be so classified... The other 92 were squaws, children, old men. A New York Tribune story by an unidentified witness compared the devastated camp to a slaughter pen littered with the bodies of animal and Indians smeared with mud, lying one on top of another in holes and ditches. It sounds as though Black Kettle's [Washita] camp lay in the path of Ghengis Khan.
 
"Custer [then] turned to the herd of mules and ponies. Officers and scouts were allowed to keep any they wanted, after which fifty-three captive women and children were instructed through interpreter Romero - known inevitably as Romeo - to choose mounts so they would not have to walk sixty or seventy miles to the base camp. Custer next detailed Lt. Godfrey with four companies to kill the remaining animals because he did not want the Cheyennes to recover them and it would have been difficult or impossible to drive such a herd. Godfrey's executioners at first tried to cut their throats, but this turned out to be increasingly difficult because they [the horses] could not abide the odor of white men and struggled desperately whenever a soldier approached. After a while, says Godfrey, his men were getting tired, so he sent for reinforcements and the creatures were shot. Even with extra men it took some time because there were about eight hundred ponies and mules, and when the job was done the snowy Oklahoma field bloomed with dark flowers."

Son of the Morning Star, Evan S. Connell] "
 
http://www.dickshovel.com/was.html



texancutie -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/7/2007 12:03:35 AM)

The Sand Creek Massacre was truly horrible.  I remember reading about it years ago.  There are some really horrible eye witness accounts of what they did to the children. 

I hate the term squaw, we certainly don't call ourselves that.  Though I do have to put up with people that do sometimes out of ingnorance,  though I always correct them...lol.



Vendaval -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/7/2007 1:15:16 AM)

Yes, most of this history is readily available and not at all appetizing.
 
And about that word, it is always amusing to explain what it actually means to someone who does not know!  [8|]



mons -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/7/2007 2:20:42 AM)

greetings

if you calling bush custer then you have already lost the war for us. custer the real one was a hater of the native americans. he went in battle with little troops and old guns. this is a known fact in history. he was a fool of the highest order. i support our troop all the way. but please do not call bush custer it makes him look like a fool and they cut off custer dick and put it in his mouth after he lost the battle of little big horn so be sure to pcik the righ hero to name bush after try grant or someone whom you know did not act like a fool and run into a battle he had no ideal what would happen .

mons



Sinergy -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/7/2007 6:31:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mons

greetings

if you calling bush custer then you have already lost the war for us. custer the real one was a hater of the native americans. he went in battle with little troops and old guns. this is a known fact in history. he was a fool of the highest order. i support our troop all the way. but please do not call bush custer it makes him look like a fool and they cut off custer dick and put it in his mouth after he lost the battle of little big horn so be sure to pcik the righ hero to name bush after try grant or someone whom you know did not act like a fool and run into a battle he had no ideal what would happen .

mons


Bush is a fool of the highest order who ordered his troops into battle with little (or no) clue about what could happen.  I think it insults Custer to compare him to Bush.  At least Custer had the gonads to fight and die with the men he ordered into the fray.

A useful analogy would be to ask whether supporting Custer's troops would involve:

a)  Sending them with Custer.

b)  Removing Custer from command as a clueless menace to the lives of the troops.

When I say Bush had no clue about what could happen, he was too concerned with the invasion and gave 0 thought to what was going to happen when that was completed.

US soldiers are paying for this administration's hubris and idiocy with their lives.

Sinergy



TheHeretic -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/7/2007 7:08:15 AM)

      Call him whatever you want, Simply.  If that is going to be the tactic for the next election, we'll be calling your candidate the same thing we called the last two... Loser!



Marc2b -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/7/2007 11:46:12 AM)

quote:

Yes, most of this history is readily available and not at all appetizing.
 
And about that word, it is always amusing to explain what it actually means to someone who does not know!



I don't want to hijack the thread but I thought I'd drop this into the conversation:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000317.html



philosophy -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/7/2007 12:02:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mons

so be sure to pcik the righ hero to name bush after



.......not sure 'hero' is the right thing to compare GWB to........what has he done that deserves the moniker of 'hero'? .......



SimplyMichael -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/7/2007 12:57:03 PM)

Killing innocent women and children?  Perfect role model for Bush!  As for fool, I atually feel bad comparing Bush to Custer, at least Custer SAW FUCKING COMBAT!!!!!



Vendaval -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/7/2007 6:31:39 PM)

The precise origin of the word may come from a couple of different sources, as is common with many words;
however, the connotation is usually regarded as negative -

"During the 1970s, some American Indian activists objected to the term. The earliest known such objection is from Sanders and Peek (1973):

"That curious concept of 'squaw', the enslaved, demeaned, voiceless childbearer, existed and exists only in the mind of the non-Native American and is probably a French corruption of the Iroquois word otsiskwa [also spelled ojiskwa] meaning 'female sexual parts', a word almost clinical both denotatively and connotatively. The corruption suggests nothing about the Native American's attitude toward women; it does indicate the wasichu's [white man's[1]] view of Native American women in particular if not all women in general." "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaw



Noah -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/7/2007 7:16:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am going to start calling Bush "Custer"...I think it puts the whole fiasco into proper perspective.


Thanks for a wonderfully concise and effective response to the nonsense posted here recently to the effect that the only way to support our troops is to support their mission.






Nosathro -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/7/2007 9:34:22 PM)

Actually Custer was charged with AWOL from the 7th Calvary and attempt was made to remove him...however, the only punishment was reduction in rank..Colonel to Lt. Colonel..he still kept his command.



Marc2b -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/14/2007 6:21:51 AM)

quote:

The precise origin of the word may come from a couple of different sources, as is common with many words;
however, the connotation is usually regarded as negative -


I don't deny that the connotation is negative and that the word is considered a slur now-a-days, just pointing out the fact that it's origin is disputted and that it may not have meant what people think it means.



farglebargle -> RE: Support Custer and our brave troops! (6/14/2007 7:04:08 AM)

How about that trend of naming US Army helicopters for Indian nations slaughtered by the US Army?




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