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Dominance and submission? - 6/4/2007 11:12:42 PM

CitizenCane

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I've been reading threads here which discuss consent in great detail (and contain the assertion that 'this lifestyle' is founded on consent); and a 'rant' informing me that this is all role-playing. There seems to be an attitude that either there is no such thing as a real dynamic of dominance and submission, or that if there is, it has no place in the BDSM 'community'. Imagine my surprise.

It seems to me, that regardless if one self-identifies as part of the D/s or BDSM 'community' (forgive my quotes, but I find it hard to write the term with a straight face), that dominance and submission are a part of human interactions most of the time. When this dynamic is in action, it is not 'consented to' in advance, it simply is. People do not usually 'agree to submit', they just submit. People do not, generally, ask if it's okay for them to bend others to their will, they either do it or fail to do it. "Consent" of the submissive actor consists simply in behaving as the dominant actor wishes them to. These d/s interactions occur all the time, most are hardly noticed.
This being the case, it seems to me that when two (or more) people who fall into a fairly consistent pattern of these interactions spend time together- they are not 'role playing'. One is exerting dominance, and the other is submitting.
When this dynamic is active, what exactly is the meaning of 'consent', beyond 'not resisting'? Obedience is consent.

I've had positive interactions with several submissive types who were not very self-aware about their proclivities. A discussion of BDSM would have been scary and off-putting to them, but direct action elicited a positive response. This seems to me to be what 'dominance and submission' describes, not 'May I please bend you to my will?'. Anyone else see things this way, or has has SSC concquered the world?

Post #: 1

RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/4/2007 11:25:11 PM

juliaoceania

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I see a difference between consenting to be dominating and being domineered, I have had both. One does consent to be dominated, even if not overtly, when they agree to go along with whatever activity it is they agreed to. If they do not agree with the desire to consent to the activity because of being bullied, forced, or coersed.. this is not dominance and submission as I wish to be involved with. I would not want to be bullied, domineered, or forced into anything. I give my submission gladly because I am inspired to and it is my nature, but I still decide (consent) to do it. Without consent, either spoken or unspoken, it is not ethical in my book.

Surely many couples have fallen into relationships where one is more dominant and the other submits... But I do not know what this has to do with BDSM and ways that we make sure that people do not abuse each other within the community by denouncing those who do not obtain consent for what they do, and as a result there is harm to a nonconsenting person. Surely you can see the logic in this, and why many of us only want to deal with those who are consenting

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CitizenCane)

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RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/4/2007 11:32:12 PM

CitizenCane

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I agree that the dynamic of dominance and submission, per se, is not necessarily positive or desirable. The distinction between the D/s the submissive party likes and the 'domineering' or 'bullying' that they don't like, however, is basically whether or not they like it. It's not possible to distinguish the two cases by any other standard.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

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RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 12:16:07 AM

spanklette

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To me, consent doesn't have to be an actual statement of limits, rules, or guidelines.

For instance, take this out of the BDSM context. In a "vanilla" setting, I've never said, "Yes, I will have sex with you tonight after dinner and a movie." That doesn't mean it was rape. It just means the consent was agreed because I didn't say, "No."

So, if BDSM activities happen without active negotiation, I don't see a problem. But, I do think that negotiation and verbal consent does serve a purpose for growth and avoiding harm. Personally, if I were in a relationship such as this, I would be trying to open the other person up to new and different things so that I could gauge responses to particular activities.

Bottom line: If everyone is having fun, and no one is harmed. Lovely!

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to CitizenCane)

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RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 12:27:31 AM

lateralist1

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Thankyou CitizenCane finally some reality. Of course most people in vanilla life do not consent to being dominated they just allow it for various reasons.
Few seek to be dominated.Even though that is exactly what they need.
However my naive view of the 'lifestyle' was that we are well developed people who are honest, caring and aware of our own natures and are very good at communication and negotiation within relationships.Who seek to find the 'right' partner or partners for a lifetime of commitment. This is obviously not true in general.
I consider myself one of those people and would truly love there to be a BDSM site dedicated for our use. To find the right sexual partners in vanilla life I have had to be very manipulative but that is not my true nature.
I am dominant in all areas of life. I try not to be domineering or a shrew but believe me it's almost impossible. It would take a saint to remain unaffected by the blatant selfishness and down right arrogance of many people especially men. However I manage just about to treat most people as I would wish to be treated myself. However I am becoming more and more agressive. Straight talking rarely does any good. It goes over the top of most peoples heads.I don't want to hurt people emotionally. I try my utmost not to do so. However I am at a stage in my life where I don't have the time to spend months/years trying to teach anyone the basics of life only to find out that we are not right for one another. So I try to do it quickly and effectively when I feel someone is worthy.

(in reply to CitizenCane)

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RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 12:47:11 AM

CitizenCane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette

To me, consent doesn't have to be an actual statement of limits, rules, or guidelines.

For instance, take this out of the BDSM context. In a "vanilla" setting, I've never said, "Yes, I will have sex with you tonight after dinner and a movie." That doesn't mean it was rape. It just means the consent was agreed because I didn't say, "No."

So, if BDSM activities happen without active negotiation, I don't see a problem. But, I do think that negotiation and verbal consent does serve a purpose for growth and avoiding harm. Personally, if I were in a relationship such as this, I would be trying to open the other person up to new and different things so that I could gauge responses to particular activities.

Bottom line: If everyone is having fun, and no one is harmed. Lovely!

Your bottom line is quite correct, in my view. When there is a power differential in a relationship (however fleeting), I consider the onus to proportionately heavier on the one with more power to use that power to achieve that bottom line. To me, this is the key element of 'benevolence'. Benevolence requires power, without the power to implement it, it is just wishful thinking. Benevolence is power directed toward creating and maintaining positive (mutually beneficial) relationships.

(in reply to spanklette)

Post #: 6

RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 2:28:29 AM

CuriousLord

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I am of the opinion that most of this community is roleplay. By roleplay, I mean "the acting in accordance to agreed upon and predetermined roles"- i.e., "Dom", "sub", etc.

I preceive that many "Doms" ask their subs, "What is it that turns you on?" I further preceive that this is paramount to, "What would you like to me to do?", only it's more subtle, for the sake of maintaining the role.

To some degree, most any relationship that the majority of people here would find acceptable is roleplay. It may be roleplay to the point of a Dom/sub couple mutually deciding every little thing. It may be to a lesser degree, the Dom/sub couple silently agreeing that the Dom will "give commands", but that these commands will be pleasing to both- that the Dom will read the sub and act out their mutual desire. Then, some relationships, as I come to feel are a small minority, the Dom acts as he will, not bound by the sub's will. Even this last bit is a roleplay, as the sub (often a "slave" in this sort of situation) has agreed to such a role in advance.

Many individuals in this community are obsessed with critiquing how one might perform in his role. Many often talk about how a "Dom" must be loving, or kind, or caring, or cautious, or responsible.. further defining the actor's role in his relationship.

I do not insult this community in saying that it is wrong to do so. I do not think that roleplaying is such a horrible thing! Simply, this is, by and large, a roleplaying community. While I am sympathetic towards the plight of romantics who are reluctant to realize this, slaves are not bound by chains without their consent. They're actresses, willing bound to a bed for their own pleasure, not trophies of a conquest, forced to act as commanded.

After all, in BDSM, even a slave is allowed to say, "No, fuck you, 'Master', I'm going." For she is, in truth, free.

(in reply to CitizenCane)

Post #: 7

RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 4:42:29 AM

Celeste43

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In your relationships this is true. The fact that you prefer to choose non-self aware partners makes the doing consent simply because they are unable to talk about it.

But that doesn't mean that everyone else is non-self aware or prefers non-self aware partners.

In my relationship he frequently asks for consent. Not in a formal way but simply saying what he wants to do and asking me if I feel up to it. For us, that checking in is giving consent. Additionally his control goes a lot farther than simply fun and games. Taking control of someone's finances is not something that you can just grab and see if the response is positive. It needs discussion and it needs consent.

Taking control of someone's finances without their consent is theft. Doing it with could mean you are an accountant, a financial manager, a person experienced in budgets, a credit counselor etc.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 8

RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 4:44:22 AM

RaynaSub

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Great thread CitizenCane, with all the whining I see on the boards,
it is great to read something from someone with a clear head.

(in reply to CitizenCane)

Post #: 9

RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 4:50:32 AM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

In your relationships this is true. The fact that you prefer to choose non-self aware partners makes the doing consent simply because they are unable to talk about it.

But that doesn't mean that everyone else is non-self aware or prefers non-self aware partners.

In my relationship he frequently asks for consent. Not in a formal way but simply saying what he wants to do and asking me if I feel up to it. For us, that checking in is giving consent. Additionally his control goes a lot farther than simply fun and games. Taking control of someone's finances is not something that you can just grab and see if the response is positive. It needs discussion and it needs consent.

Taking control of someone's finances without their consent is theft. Doing it with could mean you are an accountant, a financial manager, a person experienced in budgets, a credit counselor etc.

I am sorry, my offended and romantic friend. But.. you missed the point.

Asking for consent so regularly and being self-aware are both contributions to a BDSM-relationship being roleplaying.

How is a slave by consent anything but an actress? How is an individual, aware of restraint and following predetermined and agreed-upon guidelines but the same?

Yes, you would frown upon a true slave master, taking his slave without her consent, forcing her to serve. And this is my point. Most anything that's not roleplay is frowned upon by the BDSM community.

I ask you speak with your mind before your heart, Cel.

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 10

RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 5:12:22 AM

happypervert

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From: Scranton, PA
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quote:

I am of the opinion that most of this community is roleplay.

Better be careful how you state such opinions in school, because your profs will see a statement like this as plagiarizing from Sulieman's thread if you try to make it sound like your own idea instead of giving proper credit.

_____________________________

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(in reply to CuriousLord)

Post #: 11

RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 5:17:07 AM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

quote:

I am of the opinion that most of this community is roleplay.

Better be careful how you state such opinions in school, because your profs will see a statement like this as plagiarizing from Sulieman's thread if you try to make it sound like your own idea instead of giving proper credit.

Because my own long-standing opinion is obvilously simply something I stole from a thread I haven't read yet.

Edit: You know, the ironic part is that a lot of people have gotten mad at me for stating this before. MadRabbit, I can remember pretty well, as the fellow sent me more than just a little hate mail over implying his relationship was roleplay. Now it's apparently trendy? These forums can be such a silly place.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 6/5/2007 5:30:54 AM >

(in reply to happypervert)

Post #: 12

RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 6:08:27 AM

MsKatHouston

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From: Houston, TX
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Relationships are real for the most part. The dynamic of one's relationship develops more often than not, naturally. In D/s, as with vanilla relationships, most people are looking for some rather specific compatibilities with a partner. This is where a lot of the negotiation and I believe, consent, comes from. I see it similar to vanilla dating. But once people are a bit more invested in the relationship and there is an understanding of one another and trust is established, I don't think a lot of continual express consent occurs. It does not in my relationships. It just happens. Now there are forms of play that may be discussed and consented to on occasion within a relationship but the flow of the relationship occurs as it occurs, naturally.

quote:

This being the case, it seems to me that when two (or more) people who fall into a fairly consistent pattern of these interactions spend time together- they are not 'role playing'. One is exerting dominance, and the other is submitting.
When this dynamic is active, what exactly is the meaning of 'consent', beyond 'not resisting'? Obedience is consent.

I think consent is not resisting in such scenarios. Obedience is consent.

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to CuriousLord)

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RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 6:15:56 AM

MsKatHouston

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Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
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quote:

Yes, you would frown upon a true slave master, taking his slave without her consent, forcing her to serve.

I can see your point somewhat but I don't necessarily agree with it in full. If a "true slave master" walked into a room, saw a slave he wanted and took her but the slave wanted to be taken, does that negate the validity of the master, making he and the slave role players? Does mutual desire for a particular dynamic, and one that comes to fruition by whatever means deemed, equate to role play?

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

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RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 6:18:31 AM

CuriousLord

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(Note: I think your quote tags are mixed up in this response.)

I would make a long, drawn out argument- but I hope this is more to the point.. (I'll make the drawn-out argument if this doesn't work)..

Do your subs/slaves not express consent in following orders/commands freely and without coercion?

Also: Do your subs/slaves not follow you out of free will as opposed to force?

I realize that one can argue that they are not following an exact script- that some parts were allowed to fall into place. But improv in a script doesn't mean it's not a role.

(in reply to MsKatHouston)

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RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 6:22:58 AM

CuriousLord

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsKatHouston

quote:

Yes, you would frown upon a true slave master, taking his slave without her consent, forcing her to serve.

I can see your point somewhat but I don't necessarily agree with it in full. If a "true slave master" walked into a room, saw a slave he wanted and took her but the slave wanted to be taken, does that negate the validity of the master, making he and the slave role players? Does mutual desire for a particular dynamic, and one that comes to fruition by whatever means deemed, equate to role play?

The moment they call it slavery? Him a "Master"? Yes, it's roleplay. In truth, she is a servant, but not a slave. Further, it is their mutual will that is expressed- not simply his.

(in reply to MsKatHouston)

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RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 6:28:42 AM

MsKatHouston

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quote:

Do your subs/slaves not express consent in following orders/commands freely and without coercion?

Well, it depends on how you define consent. On one hand I would have to say yes, because I do agree that obedience equals consent. I do not ask for it. They simply do it. So with the fact that they are obeying, I see that as implied consent. Have they at times been forced or coerced to comply with certain commands? Yes, definitely.

quote:

Also: Do your subs/slaves not follow you out of free will as opposed to force?

Yes but then so does everyone. If they were unable to leave then it would be criminal activity, at least in the US. I realize you are not making an argument that role playing as you define it is wrong. I am also not going to jump down your throat about your opinion. I find it an interesting perspective. I'm still not convinced I agree with it...but it is interesting.

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to CuriousLord)

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RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 6:36:13 AM

CuriousLord

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Consideration and interest are always good.

Escentially, a "slave" follows its own will. This happens to be the will of a "Master". For some reason or another, a "slave" enjoys being submissive- it is by its own will it acts as it does. This is not what a true slave is.

And, you're right.. it would be criminal for a true slave to be taken. Slavery is illegal in the U.S. That's one of the reasons why we roleplay it.

PS-
But, ask yourself.. if you really own someone else, why is it that they can tell you to take the chains off of them? A "slave" can tell you to let them go. It's their right as a free citizen. If they don't- if they remain in those chains- it's out of their own decision to.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 6/5/2007 6:37:42 AM >

(in reply to MsKatHouston)

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RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 6:45:29 AM

MsKatHouston

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Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
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I think the reason I have a problem with the term role play is just simply because I am not trying to role play a (I cringe as I type this) "true" Master/slave relationship as defined in a traditional sense. I have a relationship and I live my life how I wish to live it. I am certainly not role playing my life. However, I am also not defining it in terms of owning someone against their will, a "true" slave if you will. So since I do not aspire to having that type of relationship and do not have that type of relationship, I am simply not role playing it. I am, instead, living my life how I define it.

quote:

But, ask yourself.. if you really own someone else, why is it that they can tell you to take the chains off of them? A "slave" can tell you to let them go. It's their right as a free citizen. If they don't- if they remain in those chains- it's out of their own decision to.

I do not disagree with that logic.

< Message edited by MsKatHouston -- 6/5/2007 6:47:59 AM >

_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to CuriousLord)

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RE: Dominance and submission? - 6/5/2007 6:49:40 AM

SimplyMichael

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Another interesting thread turned into a childish game of chest thumping....how sad.

(in reply to MsKatHouston)

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