RE: Dominance and submission?

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WhiplashSmile -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 1:57:44 PM)
Yes, I admit that consentual Dominance/submission relationships are really real. However, there are limits to these D/s relationships. These limits vary from relationship to relationship. True you don't have to prescibe to SSC, however if you are Old Guard, you follow the set of codes and conduct accordingly. Same with Gorean lifestyle. If you follow a set code such as OLD Guard, you have a list of rules you play by. Hence a frame work that you adhere to. Hence you step into the Roles of OLD Guard Master and slave relationship. You are playing out role according to rules and guidelines somebody else created. Are you not? Hell the Gorean Lifestyle itself, was built from Fantasy Roles from a Fantasy Novel. A Goreon Master is acting out the Role of being a Gorean Master. This is what seperates him from Old Guard Master or other types of Masters. Some Masters Follow along the Daddy Dom aspects. Sure it's one thing to be Naturally Dominant. But what Framework or Role are you going to use. A Role is something that you clearly define and adhere to. Somebody wanting to be a Master, is like somebody saying I want a Job! Ok now what? Define what the hell a Master is for instance and what the hell a slave is? According to what standards or what established roles? It's amazing that some here can Pick up the Label as Gorean Master, Daddy Dom, Old Guard, or other and not see that they've picked out an established Role to live by. In terms of being a Dom or Master. Again I totally recongize that D/s relationships are real, however they are based on models that are not Legal. I don't see any Gorean Master walking down streets Forcefully abducting innocent women and turning them into slaves. The relationship was entered into consentually. Now it might be every Gorean slave girls fantasy to have felt she was kidnapped, however this is not the reality of it. There is a big difference in how submission is gained and obtained. Yes, we still Dominate a submissive that has submitted to us. The D/s aspects are real but up to a point. D/s is not some limitless relationship. While REAL LIFE True Slavery has no limits... BDSM D/s relationship do have limits. Concepts such as SSC have great value in seperating us from the criminals. A slave, a submissive has the legal right to hault or terminate a relationship at any time. It's up to the slave or sub as to if they want to excerise their rights under law. Still non the less they can do this. If a Master or Dom does not respect this, then they are breaking the law. So this is not real slavery. It's Slavery that is being played out by both parties. Sure everything that happens is Real. In terms of Playing a Role, we can choose to be anything we want in life. We can have a number of Roles. Let's use the Role of Father. Just because you knocked somebody up and have a kid by them makes you a father in the sense of having a kid. Now, do you play the role of being a Father to this Child or not? That's another story? To you play out being a Father or not? Role that is played out or carried out. In terms of being a MASTER, yes you are Being a Master to a slave however it's make believe slavery. It's not true slavery. A Master should be aware that he could push things to the point his slave packs up and leaves in the middle of the night.. Any Master will know the true limits of their slave. Hell, this all is given. Why do so many people bother with expressing and figuring out limits in this lifestyle? OH wait to insure they have common interests to maintain a working relationship. We go into details about limits and activities because this is not Real Slavery. Now Old Guard school of thought comes very close to what Real Slavery is. In terms of TPE and the dynamics formed. It's agreed upon ahead of time. No need to worry generally about a slave exerting their Human Rights. However, still these rights are there. I want a job, I want to be a Master, I want a slave, I want a submissive... What roles are you going to adopt. Gorean, Old Guard, Dolcett, something Oriental in nature? 50's household perhaps? Daddy Dom role? Perhaps something Roman in nature? What? people tend to pick a type of D/s role they want to play out... Don't tell me there are alot of Masters and submissives that have not defined their Dom or sub roles? Daddy's and little girls, Gorean slave Girls and Masters and whatnot... ROLES ROLES ROLES that people pick and live out. Yes LIVE OUT a ROLE.. still playing it out. Live it out or Play it out... same damn difference...

robertolapiedra -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 2:48:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile ROLES ROLES ROLES that people pick and live out. Yes LIVE OUT a ROLE.. still playing it out. Live it out or Play it out... same damn difference... Hello WhiplashSmile. Yes...WordPlay. What are you? What do you do? What is your function? What is your field? What is your job! IF submissive. You submit (or not). My function is servicing. My field is complimenting the power exchange in a relationship. My job is domestic or exterior related. Now, would I be acting in a movie, "what I am" is a role, "what I do" is a role, etc. When one compares apples to oranges, and insist that "oranges" are only a strange coloured kind of "apple" (grows in a tree, round shape etc) one is a sophist. When the people do not "see" the faulty premice, "they" still will "feel" that something sound's funny. My favorite sophism: "Dog is man's best friend. John is my friend. John is a canine without a dogtag. Sound's funny? May not be rational but it is logical? And if you know that you are a sophist? That makes you a silly "word playing" bullshitter. RL

slaverosebeauty -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 2:54:14 PM)
BDSM borrows things from illegal slavery, just as we borrowed things from other places, ie the Romans {torture anyone??}, the Japanese {Shabari}. Its all about borrowing 'things' from other places and modifying them for our own needs, wants, desires and purposes. How did this thread turn into a pissing contest??!!

robertolapiedra -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 3:10:30 PM)
Hello slaverosebeauty. ?. RL

CitizenCane -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 3:33:21 PM)
You're obviously confusing me with someone else, Roberto.

slaverosebeauty -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 3:39:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra Hello slaverosebeauty. ?. RL Hi there. Huh??? {goes back to check on how the sign up for the troll roast is going}

robertolapiedra -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 3:56:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane You're obviously confusing me with someone else, Roberto. In that case , I am very glad to hear this. Sorry for the confusion. RL

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 4:00:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty BDSM borrows things from illegal slavery, just as we borrowed things from other places, ie the Romans {torture anyone??}, the Japanese {Shabari}. Its all about borrowing 'things' from other places and modifying them for our own needs, wants, desires and purposes. How did this thread turn into a pissing contest??!! Honestly when I read the OP's remark "Anyone else see things this way, or has has SSC concquered the world?" Things such as SSC or similar concepts is what Sperates us from the Criminals. There is a difference between Real torture and abuse and consentual BDSM play. It's obvious he supports a line of thinking that embraces having the criminals walk amoung us without question. Things like SSC actually reinforce responsible play vs. promote criminal activitiy. The OPs line of thinking I feel encourages criminal activity and promotes a line of thinking that lends itself to promoting illegal slavery inside of BDSM. It's apparent in the last line of the OP's post (start of this thread) he has little regard for SSC. So that's what did it for me.. I believe people have certain responsibilities not only in their relationships but inside the BDSM community itself. Cold day in hell before I support anybody dropping the concept of "Consensual play" from BDSM. IF the OP wants to support the Freaks Kidnapping people and turning them into slaves then that his view. NOT mine! This is the type of crap we encourage by not supporting SSC or similar concepts. I do not see EYE to EYE with him on this matter. I hope SSC concqueres the whole damn world! Might not be seeing news stories about dead women hanging in motel rooms and other crap. There is a Difference between Consentual Role played Toture and Real Torture... this type of difference applies to all subgrouping under BDSM. OH wait don't tell me her FUCKING MASTER had the Right to Kill her! BLAH!!.. So yes, I'm pissed...

KnightofMists -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 4:02:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane , that dominance and submission are a part of human interactions most of the time. I would agree that Dominance/submission is very much apart of everyday human interactions. quote: When this dynamic is in action, it is not 'consented to' in advance, it simply is. People do not usually 'agree to submit', they just submit. People do not, generally, ask if it's okay for them to bend others to their will, they either do it or fail to do it. "Consent" of the submissive actor consists simply in behaving as the dominant actor wishes them to. These d/s interactions occur all the time, most are hardly noticed. You seem to have this concept that "Consent" is some intellectual - conscious choice that is made by an individual. A choice of consent 'to submit'. Consent is not that simple. and I don't agree that it just is. We make choices all the time. We make choices all the time without any deep thought or even neccessarily conscious of the choice. Sometimes we can't even articulate our reasons for a specific choice and/or opinion. How often do you meet someone and in those first few seconds you get this vibe "I don't like them".. or " I really like them". This rapid establishment of an opinion of another will result in a domino of actions and behaviors in the interaction of another. Often within this lifestyle Dominants/submissives alike gain this intutive feeling of another and their behaviors immediately adjust. We may not know why we have this feeling or thought of the person. But we have it. and it leads us to make choices of behavior on how we will interacti with another. It is the choice that denotes consent. For consent is nothing more than a choice. Nothing in Consent denotes the quality or the quantity of thought that should go into our choices. So.. nothing is "just simply is" ... there is a choice.. that choice will have motivating factors. Our awareness or lack of awareness to the motivations of the choice doesn't make it not a choice. To me.. our behaviors are all choices! We choose to act and behave in a certain way... and responsible for those choices.

robertolapiedra -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 4:04:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty quote: ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra Hello slaverosebeauty. ?. RL Hi there. Huh??? {goes back to check on how the sign up for the troll roast is going} Hello again! I use "?" to mean " I don't fully understand the reply". I see you used "Huh???", lol for the same reason. I agree with what you said pertaining to "borrowing" from the past to create and define the new. When you said something about a pissing contest, I do not know for sure if I'm "pissing" in the two post I made. Maybe I'm having an off day? If so, it was not intentional. RL.

MadRabbit -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 4:13:14 PM)
If people would get off the whole fantasy slavery kick and focus on viewing it as a real relationship with different mechanics as far as who has authority and makes decisions, everyone would be a lot better off. If you want to compare it to "real slavery" and use that perspective to determine whethers how less or more of a fantasy it is, then sure...its all roleplaying. If you view vanilla relationships as the one and only real relationship and cant see past that, then yeah its all roleplaying. If you have head so far up your own ass that dominances cant be based on presecense of authority created by two parties working together and need every microsecond of the relationship to be absolutely in accordance with your will by some robot/slave with no sense of self so you can reassurance your own insecurities regarding your uber dominance....then yeah...its all roleplaying. If you look at it like a relationship with differing levels of authorities and rules, protocols, and rituals tailored to everyday life and not an Anne Rice novel, then...it might just be real to you. As I become more and more comfortable with myself and what I want, I could really care less anymore if my relationship is real in some grand philosophical sense or to meet the standards of some indiginant Internet monkey. I personally love it. Things flow smoothly. The relationship is of my construct and my way and that makes me feal good and content. I dont have to worry about negotiating endlessly over sex, dinner, movies, or whatever with some girlfriend. Good old Jack Rinella once said something along the lines of "Experience comes with having expectations and adjusting them accordingly." If people cant get past their lofty expectations of how this should be and focus on what it is or can be, then I think they are missing out on something that is still pretty awesome to me even if things arent the way I envisioned when I first started out.

slaverosebeauty -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 4:14:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile quote: ORIGINAL: slaverosebeauty BDSM borrows things from illegal slavery, just as we borrowed things from other places, ie the Romans {torture anyone??}, the Japanese {Shabari}. Its all about borrowing 'things' from other places and modifying them for our own needs, wants, desires and purposes. How did this thread turn into a pissing contest??!! Honestly when I read the OP's remark "Anyone else see things this way, or has has SSC concquered the world?" Things such as SSC or similar concepts is what Sperates us from the Criminals. There is a difference between Real torture and abuse and consentual BDSM play. It's obvious he supports a line of thinking that embraces having the criminals walk amoung us without question. Things like SSC actually reinforce responsible play vs. promote criminal activitiy. The OPs line of thinking I feel encourages criminal activity and promotes a line of thinking that lends itself to promoting illegal slavery inside of BDSM. It's apparent in the last line of the OP's post (start of this thread) he has little regard for SSC. So that's what did it for me.. I believe people have certain responsibilities not only in their relationships but inside the BDSM community itself. Cold day in hell before I support anybody dropping the concept of "Consensual play" from BDSM. IF the OP wants to support the Freaks Kidnapping people and turning them into slaves then that his view. NOT mine! This is the type of crap we encourage by not supporting SSC or similar concepts. I do not see EYE to EYE with him on this matter. I hope SSC concqueres the whole damn world! Might not be seeing news stories about dead women hanging in motel rooms and other crap. There is a Difference between Consentual Role played Toture and Real Torture... this type of difference applies to all subgrouping under BDSM. OH wait don't tell me her FUCKING MASTER had the Right to Kill her! BLAH!!.. So yes, I'm pissed... I agree with you. If SSC was practiced more an it was 'common' then thigns would be a LOT {i hate to use the word, but i cannot think of another one} 'better' than they are now. I have heard stories that I was able to verify as fact for years about girls who were killed by their socalled 'masters' etc, hell, I heard that stuff when I first started to explore things; now, if SSC and common sence is not there, I'm gone. I'm with you WhiplashSmile, if SSC becomes extinct or becomes more threatened than it already is, things will get worse; more news stories, more horror stories. And tops wonder why so many bottosm are cautious; we have a right to be. I tease partners by saying, 'are you going to torture it out me of me,' with my big brown eyes looking up at them. Do I mean 'henius acts' that can potentially kill me, HELL NO. I mean, "are you going to play with me in a way we have both agreed until you get the 'result' you an I both want." WhiplashSmile, I am on your side. Please relax. I didn't read most of the pissing contest on this thread, its gone on too long for my tastes. I have my own opinions on the OP, I will keep them to myself. Come on, come join me for a glass of ice tea and relax. I'm gonna go back to setting up the fire for the troll roast. Come join us.

kyraofMists -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 4:34:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer The most clear and concise way I can think to put this is. The mind limits the body more than most of us understand. Running a marathon, standing still for a singletail scene, both are impossible for most people to imagine themselves doing and as such they are a perception based reality. However there are people who overide this percieved inability, and push their mind and body beyond the percieved limits to something closer to their actual limits. This grey zone between percieved limits and the actual limits of the human body are the playground of SM and some sports. It is exposing this grey area the space beyond what someone thinks their body and mind can do closer to what their body and mind actually is capable of that is the motivation for many SM practitioners. D/s and M/s are another area where the grey area between percieved reality and actual reality is where we explore, however instead of the physical realm it is the mental emotional and for some spiritual realms that are explored. This post has started my mind racing; it is something that my Lord has been trying to get through my head lately but just didn't get there till now. My thoughts about this are completely off topic, so I will just say thank you, Sir. This post has helped me grow. Knight's kyra

Celeste43 -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 4:40:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile Don't tell me there are alot of Masters and submissives that have not defined their Dom or sub roles? Daddy's and little girls, Gorean slave Girls and Masters and whatnot... ROLES ROLES ROLES that people pick and live out. Yes LIVE OUT a ROLE.. still playing it out. Live it out or Play it out... same damn difference... Do people really establish a fantasy relationship in their head and expect the other person to follow a script they have never read? Great way to guarantee that a relationship won't be successful. Some of us don't do this. Some of us find a partner whom we are compatible with, we become friends and lovers and allow the relationship to grow organically.

Kirata -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 4:41:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile A Goreon Master is acting out the Role of being a Gorean Master. This is what seperates him from Old Guard Master or other types of Masters. Some Masters Follow along the Daddy Dom aspects. Sure it's one thing to be Naturally Dominant. But what Framework or Role are you going to use. A Role is something that you clearly define and adhere to. Somebody wanting to be a Master, is like somebody saying I want a Job! Ok now what? Define what the hell a Master is for instance and what the hell a slave is? According to what standards or what established roles? It's amazing that some here can Pick up the Label as Gorean Master, Daddy Dom, Old Guard, or other and not see that they've picked out an established Role to live by.... I don't see any Gorean Master walking down streets Forcefully abducting innocent women and turning them into slaves. The relationship was entered into consentually. Now it might be every Gorean slave girls fantasy to have felt she was kidnapped, however this is not the reality of it.... In terms of being a MASTER, yes you are Being a Master to a slave however it's make believe slavery. It's not true slavery. A Master should be aware that he could push things to the point his slave packs up and leaves in the middle of the night.. Any Master will know the true limits of their slave. Hell, this all is given. Your comments about Gor neglect to distinguish between fiction and philosophy. Goreans do not pattern their life on a "fantasy role" extracted from a bunch of novels. The fictional content of the Gor books conveys a view of masculine and feminine human nature, and of our relationship to each other and to nature as a whole, which is independent of its setting, and with which we resonate. We honor some of the customs and protocols of (fictional) Gorean culture simply because we are neither so arrogant nor so self-centered as to feel driven to reinvent the wheel a thousand different individualistic ways. They work "as is" -- effectively and often beautifully embodying the philosophical point of view we espouse -- and their commonality creates a sense of community. As for Gorean slavery, yes, on the fictional planet Gor slavery is legal, and the books depict it in all its commercial rawness. But that is setting. The relationship between an individual Master and His girl is entirely another matter. The common observation that only a fool loves a slave is made with tongue firmly in cheek. It happens all the time. With a difference, however. The typical romantic sequence on Earth is (1) girl falls in love, and (2) surrenders to her lover. In Gor, the romantic sequence follows the opposite direction. The girl (1) finds herself confronted with a Master who draws from her her surrender, and (2) falls in love with him. Submission can be compelled by force, but surrender cannot. And while there are many kinds of slaves, the slavery of a love slave is deepest enslavement of all. It has always been so. You say it's not true slavery because it's not legally binding. By that logic, it's not true love if it's not legally binding. And that kind of thinking will comprehend neither love nor Gorean slavery. K.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 5:46:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: robertolapiedra quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile ROLES ROLES ROLES that people pick and live out. Yes LIVE OUT a ROLE.. still playing it out. Live it out or Play it out... same damn difference... Hello WhiplashSmile. Yes...WordPlay. What are you? What do you do? What is your function? What is your field? What is your job! IF submissive. You submit (or not). My function is servicing. My field is complimenting the power exchange in a relationship. My job is domestic or exterior related. Now, would I be acting in a movie, "what I am" is a role, "what I do" is a role, etc. When one compares apples to oranges, and insist that "oranges" are only a strange coloured kind of "apple" (grows in a tree, round shape etc) one is a sophist. When the people do not "see" the faulty premice, "they" still will "feel" that something sound's funny. My favorite sophism: "Dog is man's best friend. John is my friend. John is a canine without a dogtag. Sound's funny? May not be rational but it is logical? And if you know that you are a sophist? That makes you a silly "word playing" bullshitter. RL LOL.. yes, the English language and the multiple meanings for so many words. I by no means question Dominance or submission as not being real roles that fit naturally for many people. There is a school of thought that human beings both have dominant and submissive sides to thier personality. Where as Dom/mes submerge themselves into the Dominant side and shun the submissive side altogther, and submissives submerge themselves in submission and shun being Dominant. Simply put they are naturally inclinded to be one or other.. accept it, embrace and proceed to carry out a Natural Role. Some people are neither fully Dom or submissive and Hence are Switches. LOL... At least according to the school of thought that everybody has a Dominant and submissive side. Hell, some newbie subs are encouraged to explore if they have a Dom/me side by their own Masters. Why the Hell is this? MMMmmmm... could there be some truth to this or not? So let's please do talk natural D/s... That Dominance and submissiion is all relevent to Social Makeup and Society itself. Even more so in Caste systems... kind of like lower, middle, upper class systems. Where as people in the lower class are subservient to the middle and the middle to the upper class. Pfffft... So many people think Acting out a Role assumes being Fake or false? It's it's a Natural Role for one to Carry out, so be it. Living out a Role or Acting out the Role does not mean being Fake! Hell most people that Carry out and live a role are doing so very honestly. There are Sub/slave that seek a master yet wish to Dominant thier own submissive? Again a case where D&S relative and not an absolute thing. However to fully embrace the Role of being DOM or Submissive, one has to do away and avoid the other at all costs. Meaning a Dom will act out their role to the point of shunning and avoiding the slightest submissive traits they might naturally feel. Same thing with a submissive, they emerce themselves in their submissive role and totally block out any part of their Dominant side. I think Switches know best the Point I'm making here. So again, I ressert about people acting out or living out roles. Some people have very strong dominant sides and little of a submissive side. Others have a strong submissive with a very little of a Dom side. Some people are simply more Dom compared to others. Some a more submissive. Hence why there is TPE (total power exchange) vs. PPE (Partial Power Exchanges). Not everybody desires D/s, let alone cares for TPE. Yet, these people are part of the BDSM community. Hell I could hang the title Jailor on myself. Now, I would have to set up a jail cell or two find some prisoners (slaves). I could keep them in jail cells.. live out the role of being their Jailer. However, at anytime they could use their get of JAIL for FREE Card, since they have the legal right to end this consensual relationship. So, I'm a Jailer but not really. My prisoners can GET out JAIL anytime they wish. This would of course mean what? End of relationship or renegotiate the terms and conditions. All and All, I'm not a real jailor runing a real jail where prisoners get to use a GET of JAIL card. I would only be considered a Wanna Be Jailer in the Eyes of a Real Jailer. Hell, Sure I'm a MASTER in terms of BDSM. However, a real slave owner into human trafficing that actually owns real slaves will view me as a wanna be slave owner. Am I making sense to you yet? How about the Real Rapist? He would look at those of us that have engaged in consenusal Rape play and laugh at us for being Wanna be's simply acting out Bullshit instead of living the thing. I bet people into the Real Slave industry of Human Trafficing look at us all like we are a lot of Wanna Bes living this shit out as fantasy and we'd piss ourselves to death at the real thing. So are we not actors when compared to these types of people or not? Are we not safely and sanely poking around in fantasy or is everything we do 100% all the time? This is real and not fantasy according to who's perspective?

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 5:56:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Celeste43 quote: ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile Don't tell me there are alot of Masters and submissives that have not defined their Dom or sub roles? Daddy's and little girls, Gorean slave Girls and Masters and whatnot... ROLES ROLES ROLES that people pick and live out. Yes LIVE OUT a ROLE.. still playing it out. Live it out or Play it out... same damn difference... Do people really establish a fantasy relationship in their head and expect the other person to follow a script they have never read? Great way to guarantee that a relationship won't be successful. Some of us don't do this. Some of us find a partner whom we are compatible with, we become friends and lovers and allow the relationship to grow organically. Actually I enjoy seeing profiles like "Submissive seeks Daddy/Dom for..." , "Masochistic slave seeks Sadistic Master...", "Bedroom only submissive seeks relationship..." and etc... These people know exactly what roles they want to play and what role their partner plays in the relationship. How the Hell could this be a guarentee that a relatioship won'd be successful? Actually I think it's adds more clarity to the type of D/s roles being carried out, Don't you?

SlyStone -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 6:11:44 PM)
What I think is that the majority of people reading this thread are either shaking their heads in wonder at the absurdity of it all or laughing their asses off at the ridiculousness of it all. My guess is that very few people are empathizing, but I could be wrong. It seems to me that what started out as another attempt to understand, what I think, is the simple concept of consent, has become another argument over the true meaning of the concept of slavery, and any discussion concerning the true meaning of anything is doomed from the start. I personally think it all falls into three categories. Those who are playing at roles, those who are being true to themselves and those who are unable to separate fantasy from reality, and all three types exist throughout society and all three seem to be represented on this particular thread. I think "slavery" is real if the person who is "self enslaved" believes it to be real. We have all heard the vanilla expression "slave to love" and seen it in reality, where people literally loose themselves in a relationship, in another being, as a result of an incredibly strong emotional state. They change, the cease to exist as we knew them . It does happen, sometimes for the good and sometimes for the bad, from our perspective that is, but it does happen. But I personally believe, no, I know, that slavery in a free society only exists within the reality of the enslaved and is based on an individual mental state of being. Is that mental state a loss of reality or is it an embracement of one's "true" reality?, I really have no idea and I have given up trying to determine that. But since I cannot expect others to understand my individual mental state of being and sense of reality, who the fuck am to judge yours.

CelticPrince -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 6:34:22 PM)
Cane, an excellet expression of the actual D/s dynamic. CP

WhiplashSmile -> RE: Dominance and submission? (6/5/2007 7:02:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Your comments about Gor neglect to distinguish between fiction and philosophy. Goreans do not pattern their life on a "fantasy role" extracted from a bunch of novels. The fictional content of the Gor books conveys a view of masculine and feminine human nature, and of our relationship to each other and to nature as a whole, which is independent of its setting, and with which we resonate. We honor some of the customs and protocols of (fictional) Gorean culture simply because we are neither so arrogant nor so self-centered as to feel driven to reinvent the wheel a thousand different individualistic ways. They work "as is" -- effectively and often beautifully embodying the philosophical point of view we espouse -- and their commonality creates a sense of community. As for Gorean slavery, yes, on the fictional planet Gor slavery is legal, and the books depict it in all its commercial rawness. But that is setting. The relationship between an individual Master and His girl is entirely another matter. The common observation that only a fool loves a slave is made with tongue firmly in cheek. It happens all the time. With a difference, however. The typical romantic sequence on Earth is (1) girl falls in love, and (2) surrenders to her lover. In Gor, the romantic sequence follows the opposite direction. The girl (1) finds herself confronted with a Master who draws from her her surrender, and (2) falls in love with him. Submission can be compelled by force, but surrender cannot. And while there are many kinds of slaves, the slavery of a love slave is deepest enslavement of all. It has always been so. You say it's not true slavery because it's not legally binding. By that logic, it's not true love if it's not legally binding. And that kind of thinking will comprehend neither love nor Gorean slavery. K. Well spoken and said Kirata. Along with MadRabbits comments on this thread. I agree with the POV with both you and Madrabbit. The slavery of Love is the deepest enslavement of all. Without question or hands down, it can't be beat. This is where the sub/slave would do anything or nearly anything to please their Master. Love. Yes, that magical powerful force in life. Case in point where a slave hearts burns so strongly. Bondage of the Heart, Mind, Body and Spirit level. I know I've been going on in terms of Acting things out or playing out roles. In terms of enslavement of the heart, this is very deep and very real. It's bond that still is there even if a relationship ends and years pass. I've been ranting about how much BDSM aspects are roles we carry out. However, the truth is that many of us live or carry out these roles naturally. That Scene play dyanamics are different compared to the relationship dynamics itself. MadRabbit hit the nail on the head in his last post. We are talking about real relationship dynamics here after all. However, it takes two people to make D/s relationships work and not just one person. KnightsofMist summed up a lot of Great points... Trust me, I do look at D/s as being a real relationship dynamic. It's something that gets worked out between two people, it's not just a one sided deal though. I'm not advocating for there to be endless negotiating over crap either. Negotiating occurs over major issues, hopefully before the start of a D/s or M/s relationship. Limits, expectations, responsibilities and whatnot... similar views or not so similar views.. all the fun Major issue that can cause problems in having a D/s relationship. I'm not so gone off the rails, I don't see or understand the reality of D/s relationships. Some people don't have M/s or D/s relationships with Love involved, this is a contrast to what Kirata expressed. However, anybody knows that slavery of a heart is the Ultimate Mecca, while some it means the complete downfall of the M/s relationship. Some people fall in love with the other and no longer seek to Flog, use or degrade the person they are in love with. But to humilate and flog somebody you love deeply and for them to Love you while doing all this, this is the Best Damn BDSM experiences to be had. At least in my book. There are people in loveless D/s relationships and they avoid it at all costs, in part reasons as I mentioned above already. I do feel that consentual D/s relationships if done correctly are the most intense and rewarding ones there is to be had. Slavery, but a different form compared to the Fantasy Slavery of Real Slavery. Slavery that is not based upon truely illegal non consenting abuse... I'm not saying these are pretend relationships at all. D/s relationships are real last time I checked.. God.. I think my past is real last time I checked.. Ummm... Nope, it's still real. Had to do a reality check there. I just adhere to things like SSC and a focus that a slave/sub is still a human being no matter if I treat her like a worthless dirty whore in the bedroom or play time. No matter how many times she brings me my morning cup of coffee, washes and folds my clothing according to how I like, if she rubs my back, kisses my feet or I'm flogging her ass on a St. Andrews cross. She's still a human being. I believe I'm responsible for being in tune with her needs and limits. That I have a responsibility towards her. That I don't have the right to Kill or Cause permanant Damage or fuck her up for life. That I should be also compassionate and understanding and patient with her. That I should be anything but a True abusive self absorb asshole towards her. Why the Hell would I want to fuck up the one thing I value greatly in life? I have a big stick up my ass towards the abusive asses the like to hide behind BDSM and D/s to carry out their evil ways. It sets me off. Perhaps this makes me not so Domly or not. Perhaps this makes me a poor excuse at being a Master! Oh Wait when I assume my Master Role! OH wait! That's right! I can play with Dommes without Trying to be Master of the Universe over them. So when I play with a Domme, I'm not inside my ROLE as Master. I'm inside a different mode or role. Fuck don't tell me people go to work inside thier Master role? I wonder how many people Mastered their ASS out the door by their Boss. So yes! I say ROLE!.. because one is not going to treat every woman like they are their MASTER.. OH crap.. that's right there are a lot of men on this site emailing prospective sub/slaves with the attitude like they already are their Master. Because these people can't seem to step outside their Masterly Roles of playing Master. I still stand convinced in ROLES and there is a time to act them out or not. Amazing how quickly people hide these Roles infront of Family.. People simply change gears from one role to another. Hell even different protocal levels place the M/s on different levels or roles. Big different between a slave not speaking at all, to yes/no sir responses, to being given freedom to speak, to freedom to speak without addressing the Master as Sir/Master/Lord/Overlord or whatever else... Again I stress living out a Role does not mean being Fake. In part it's something that we have a natural desire to do. We just Clearly define our roles, kinks and limits and other things in BDSM. We attempt to stay consistent in what we are doing. We do not attempt to negotiating endlessly, we establish protocals for negotiating things when we must. In mutal interest of both Master/slave... Hell, I suppose Talking about PPE (partial power exchange) relationships, Switch Dynamics or Dom couple dynamics are totally out of the question on this thread since everything is D/s. Want to talk about changing gears from D/s to D/D... Oh yeah, that should shed some light on what I mean by assuming roles. I feel at times people have their heads Shoved too far up D/s that they'd piss themselves to discover their sub/slave is a really a human being with human needs or desires. OH but wait the whole world Evols around us Domly Masters alone. Do you see the school of thought I don't fully buy into and refuse to fully swallow? I believe in having responsibility for a sub/slave and in their own welfare as well as my own. I have yet to find a Doormat slave in life yet... I think this is a mythical fantasy along with unicorns and rainbows.

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