RE: Dominance and Responsibility

RE: Dominance and Responsibility (Full Version)

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slaverosebeauty -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 8:29:47 AM)
Ultimatly, responsibility for our actions and for us, lays with us as individuals. A bottom-type can expect and hope that their counterpart will take some level of responsibility, yet, in the end, responsibility is an individual thing.

CitizenCane -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 9:07:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane Since I believe that there is a real dynamic of dominance and submission in many, including my own relationships, I believe that as the dominant party in the relationship I have significant responsibility for the effects of my control on the submissive party. If I believed that we were simply role-playing the D/s dynamic, I would consider my partner's responsibility regarding effects on herself as complete. But, to the degree that I actually have the power to cause things to happen, to the degree that she does things because I want them done, I acquire responsibility for those things. One implication of this is that I tend to feel that people who insist that all D/s is role-playing are attempting to insulate themselves from responsibility. Regardless of the silly debate of role-play vrs not role-play. We are all responsible for how we behave. Even if we are choosing to behave in manner that another wants. I personally feel that those who project an opinion that Dominants have a greater responsibility than submissives are insulating submissives from the responsibility and consequences of their actions. In my opinion... alot of people attempt to evade and avoid responsibility for their behaviors... Dominants and submissives alike. No, I don't believe that anything insulates a person from responsibility, except lack of capacity. I believe a person can take on added responsibility by taking control of a situation. While ceding control is an action, it is not always a choice, and so there may or may not be responsibility attached. And, it's exactly my point that many people of all stripes attempt to evade responsibility for their actions, and mischaracterizations of concepts like 'consent' are often tools in this attempt.

CitizenCane -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 9:09:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows I see BDSM as roleplay. But like I said before - I see all of life is one big roleplay. I don't see roleplay a big issue or a big omgosh - a is better than b. As Faramir kindly explained to me, roleplay as a word is used differently by some people, to how I define it - and they define it almost like 'acting'. Maybe I am just picky. To me that would be just 'acting' - not roleplaying. So if you said to me, that BDSM is just acting - I would disagree. Roleplaying is different to me. Acting is playing something you are not and could never be (during a fantasy scene)- roleplaying is being something you have the ability to be with time and effort. Your given a role. You play it or you don't. And if you accept the role, you play it in the way that suits you best. Like a musical instrument.... you either have the gift to play it, or you learn how to. role-play·ing [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif[/image] [image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image][image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif[/image] /ˈroʊlˌpleɪ[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image]ɪŋ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rohl-pley-ing] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.a method of instruction or psychotherapy aimed at changing attitudes and behavior, in which participants act out designated roles relevant to real-life situations.

CitizenCane -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 9:37:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross My perspective may be different in that, every relationship I had as a slave required a lot MORE responsibility for myself and life than if I were single. My owners expected a lot of me and I was responsible for that (as always- what's the point of punishment or reward if the slave isn't responsible?) If I were single, I'd have enjoyed a MUCH less responsible existence to others or other tasks. So I think the notion that the dom is all responsible and the sub is not at all responsible is pure bunk. I agree with this- I was not in any way trying to say that the assumption of added responsibility by the dom diminishes the sub's responsibility. However, I think that two ideas are being conflated here- first, the idea of 'moral/ethical responsibility', which, though admitedly vague, is the kind I was referring to, and second, 'responsibility for performance', which is what you seem to be focused on. Certainly a submissive takes on tremendous responsibility for performance. In the moral/ethical realm, I believe that people who are capable of responsibility have it, no matter what. I also believe that in a D/s dynamic, it's often the case, for greater or lesser periods of time, that submissives enter a mind set in which responsibility for their actions is reduced or impaired. Is there a meta-responsibility about getting into a situation where this mindset takes over? Of course- depending on the degree to which it and it's effects can be anticipated. I merely contend that if I, as a dominant, deliberately induce that mindset in another, by whatever means, I take on a significant burdern of responsibility for the actions they perform at my behest.

Faramir -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 9:57:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane I think that two ideas are being conflated here- first, the idea of 'moral/ethical responsibility', which, though admitedly vague, is the kind I was referring to, and second, 'responsibility for performance', which is what you seem to be focused on. Certainly a submissive takes on tremendous responsibility for performance. Thank you--that's where I was hung-up. I've often used the phrase "Unequal in power and position, equal in worth and responsibility," and feel a truthful resonance there. I also felt a resonance in you said in your OP, and I wasn't able to resolve the tension there, but this helps. In my D/s model, both partners are equally important, worthy, and insomuch as I have a Pauline understanding of intimacy, she is "worth" more in sense. I've loved twice in my life in a way where I would have gladly given my life for her. Along with that, I see partners as being equally enfranchised in the relationship. I would use that word instead of performance, but performance is encompassed in this--if you are enfranchised in a relationship where you serve, obey, please, honor, well, you will perform in response to that enfranchisement. At the same time there is this other aspect in which things are utterly unbalanced. I have a superior position, and I have either more power, or in my healthiest relationships, comprehensive power. I had authority in the relationship, in the full, latinate sense of being the author of the relationship. Two things that seems very much in tension: an equality of responsibility in the sense of enfrnachisement, and an utter inequality in terms of responsibilty for authorship of the text of the relationship. “They do not understand how that which differs with itself in is agreement: harmony consists of opposing tension, like that of the bow and the lyre.”

SirDominic -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 10:09:31 AM)
quote: I've often used the phrase "Unequal in power and position, equal in worth and responsibility," and feel a truthful resonance there. Wonderful quote. This comes very close to my belief system as well. The only thing I would change is the "equal responsibility" part. Like several others have mentioned, I believe the one with more power has more responsibility. Not all the responsibility, just more of it. Namaste, Dominic

jaunty1 -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 10:22:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane Since I believe that there is a real dynamic of dominance and submission in many, including my own relationships, I believe that as the dominant party in the relationship I have significant responsibility for the effects of my control on the submissive party. If I believed that we were simply role-playing the D/s dynamic, I would consider my partner's responsibility regarding effects on herself as complete. But, to the degree that I actually have the power to cause things to happen, to the degree that she does things because I want them done, I acquire responsibility for those things. One implication of this is that I tend to feel that people who insist that all D/s is role-playing are attempting to insulate themselves from responsibility. My girl and I do not play in any sense of the word. Our relationship is completly dynamic based. I take total responsibility for our relationship; the good and the bad. Yes, she contributes 100% also; but I still take total responsibility. Live well Alex

Faramir -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 10:23:45 AM)
As CC and I are trying to articulate, perhaps there is much than one type of responsibility--I certainly feel that the Dominant person in a D/s relationship has more responsibility in the sense of authorship responsibility. That being said, there is more than one way to skin the D/s cat, and we may have differing approaches to D/s, neither being right, or perhaps both being right in that they reflect our particular needs and place.

darkinshadows -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 11:09:01 AM)
You give one definition which suits you, that's cool. But that isn't the only. It is just pointless saying 'mine is better than yours and I am more responsible', when you are not taking the time to take the responsibility to find out about others kinks and just making assumptions and accusing people wrongly. It just counteracts your original post. Peace

CuriousLord -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 12:34:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane Since I believe that there is a real dynamic of dominance and submission in many, including my own relationships, I believe that as the dominant party in the relationship I have significant responsibility for the effects of my control on the submissive party. If I believed that we were simply role-playing the D/s dynamic, I would consider my partner's responsibility regarding effects on herself as complete. But, to the degree that I actually have the power to cause things to happen, to the degree that she does things because I want them done, I acquire responsibility for those things. One implication of this is that I tend to feel that people who insist that all D/s is role-playing are attempting to insulate themselves from responsibility. Posts like this help me to see that people might see "roleplaying" in a very shallow sense. In any case, some go by "if I tell you to do it, or you do it becasue it's a rule of mine, then I'm responsible for the consquences". I'm among this type. Some take offense to such a notion. (See Masterhood.) Others are of the opinion, "if I tell you what to do, and you do it, it was you who did it, and it was you who decided to obey me, so you're responsible for your actions, and BDSM is no excuse." In truth, the idea of responsibility is a social construct, not a necessity of nature. Some will allow you and your partner to allocate responsiblity, even in their own considerations, to a certain degree, provided that it's not strongly against their own beliefs. Others will hold either you or yours responisble as they see fit, disconcerned with your system or arguments. So, responsiblity's really in the eye of the beholder. This can be set up by the Dom/Master in a relationship, but, outside of the relationship, it's open to circumstance and interpretation.

domiguy -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 12:42:59 PM)
I agree with CuriousLord ...This has come down to a cock measuring contest as to whose definition is bigger and thicker.....Of course my definition is the longest with the most girth but unfortunately my opinions are so easily discounted for they always tend to hang to the left.

colouredin -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 12:52:05 PM)
I realise many of us see submission as inbuilt aspects however we are all still people, if soemone is doing something we dont like we CAN say no, giving power can always be revoked cant it, thats what makes us differant from animals the ability to assess a situation and act in accordance to it. Sure the Dominant has responsibilty, but its the subs responsibility to only give themselves to someone who wont abuse that power, there are situations where a submissive is very vulnerable, but if they have been careful they will know that their Dominant wont push them too hard, and if they feel uncomfortable that it can stop.

CitizenCane -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 1:08:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows You give one definition which suits you, that's cool. But that isn't the only. It is just pointless saying 'mine is better than yours and I am more responsible', when you are not taking the time to take the responsibility to find out about others kinks and just making assumptions and accusing people wrongly. It just counteracts your original post. Peace I gave the definition of role playing found in the dictionary, which is WHY it suits me. If the dictionary said it meant something else, that would suit me fine- I would use the term in that sense. You, like Humpty Dumpty, can make words mean whatever you want them to mean- TO YOU. But in discussing ideas with others it's often helpful to refer to an accepted standard. In this case, the term is not particularly old and it's original meaning is quite precise, so there's no good reason to accept everyone's personal definitions based on their personal kinks or their personal lack of awareness of the accepted definition of the word. Not when we could be debating the meaning of the word 'is'.

CitizenCane -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 1:12:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane Since I believe that there is a real dynamic of dominance and submission in many, including my own relationships, I believe that as the dominant party in the relationship I have significant responsibility for the effects of my control on the submissive party. If I believed that we were simply role-playing the D/s dynamic, I would consider my partner's responsibility regarding effects on herself as complete. But, to the degree that I actually have the power to cause things to happen, to the degree that she does things because I want them done, I acquire responsibility for those things. One implication of this is that I tend to feel that people who insist that all D/s is role-playing are attempting to insulate themselves from responsibility. Posts like this help me to see that people might see "roleplaying" in a very shallow sense. In any case, some go by "if I tell you to do it, or you do it becasue it's a rule of mine, then I'm responsible for the consquences". I'm among this type. Some take offense to such a notion. (See Masterhood.) Others are of the opinion, "if I tell you what to do, and you do it, it was you who did it, and it was you who decided to obey me, so you're responsible for your actions, and BDSM is no excuse." In truth, the idea of responsibility is a social construct, not a necessity of nature. Some will allow you and your partner to allocate responsiblity, even in their own considerations, to a certain degree, provided that it's not strongly against their own beliefs. Others will hold either you or yours responisble as they see fit, disconcerned with your system or arguments. So, responsiblity's really in the eye of the beholder. This can be set up by the Dom/Master in a relationship, but, outside of the relationship, it's open to circumstance and interpretation. Again, role-playing is a term of recent vintage with a precise meaning. If that's not what people mean when they say 'role-playing', it would be helpful if they would say something else. The rest we more or less agree on.

CuriousLord -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 1:22:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane quote: ORIGINAL: darkinshadows You give one definition which suits you, that's cool. But that isn't the only. It is just pointless saying 'mine is better than yours and I am more responsible', when you are not taking the time to take the responsibility to find out about others kinks and just making assumptions and accusing people wrongly. It just counteracts your original post. Peace I gave the definition of role playing found in the dictionary, which is WHY it suits me. If the dictionary said it meant something else, that would suit me fine- I would use the term in that sense. You, like Humpty Dumpty, can make words mean whatever you want them to mean- TO YOU. But in discussing ideas with others it's often helpful to refer to an accepted standard. In this case, the term is not particularly old and it's original meaning is quite precise, so there's no good reason to accept everyone's personal definitions based on their personal kinks or their personal lack of awareness of the accepted definition of the word. Not when we could be debating the meaning of the word 'is'. Okay, you have no idea how many stupid things I let people say on these boards without calling it. But I'm afraid no one else will point out the obvious here.. You're saying your definition is the right one since it's the one in the dictionary, right? Need I remind you that you chose definition '1' and you seeing it first doesn't mean there weren't more in there? And you cite that one entry from one dictionary as the definition when that source gave you three other dictionaries? And you call her "Humpty Dumpty"? Jeeze. As a matter of fact, I traced your reference source. It appears you used Dictionary.com. quote: ORIGINAL: Dictionary.com on "roleplay" role-play [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif[/image] [image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image][image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif[/image] /ˈroʊlˌpleɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rohl-pley] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used with object) 1. to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction: Management trainees were given a chance to role-play labor negotiators. 2. to experiment with or experience (a situation or viewpoint) by playing a role: trainees role-playing management positions. –verb (used without object) 3. to engage in role-playing. [Origin: 1945–50[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image]] Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.WordNet - Cite This Source roleplay verb perform on a stage or theater; "She acts in this play"; "He acted in 'Julius Caesar'"; "I played in 'A Christmas Carol'" [syn: act] WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University.American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source role-play (r[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gif[/image]l[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif[/image]pl[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gif[/image][image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gif[/image]) v. role-·played, role-·play·ing, role-·plays To assume deliberately the part or role of; act out. n. Role-playing. The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary - Cite This Source Main Entry: role–play Pronunciation: 'rOl-"plA Function: transitive verb : ACT OUT role–play intransitive senses : to play a role Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc. Never again pull a single entry for a word from a single dictionary and claim that this is the right definition and no others.

CuriousLord -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 1:29:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane Again, role-playing is a term of recent vintage with a precise meaning. If that's not what people mean when they say 'role-playing', it would be helpful if they would say something else. It's not a term of precise meaning. By your own source.. quote: ORIGINAL: WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton (cited and linked in post 35 of this thread) To assume deliberately the part or role of; act out. One could easily argue that someone may deliberately assume the role or part of a slave or Master.

Faramir -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 1:46:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuriousLord Never again pull a single entry for a word from a single dictionary and claim that this is the right definition and no others. But while there are some slight variations in denotation (acting out a role in therapy vice acting out a role on stage) they are all quite similiar, and they all have the exact same connotation: pretending to be what you are not for a period. There was nothing disengenuous about what he wrote--what, did you sleuth up dictionary.com and see there was more than one one denotative usage, but then not bother to read them?

MadRabbit -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 2:38:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Faramir I've often used the phrase "Unequal in power and position, equal in worth and responsibility," and feel a truthful resonance there. Yes! How I feal exactly.

CuriousLord -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 2:44:23 PM)
Yours is a good definition, but I would argue there's another meaning that's ignored. To roleplay can be to act out a role that one is in. A fireman, for example, roleplays a fireman. To say this, typically, would seem to implicate the fireman not as a fireman, but as one pretending to be one. Nonetheless, he does play the role of a fireman; I would point out that such an individual wouldn't typically run from house to house, trying to put out fires as they're called in, but adopts such a role for pay. In a more philosophical context, one might see roleplay to be acting out a role, despite sincerity or lack of it. One might argue that we all play roles (or "wear masks", as a more cliche expression, turning the idea to more physical analogy) with regards to who we are. We agree, "Yes, I will control this one female, or these several, but leave these others as free individuals, or to the juristiction of another." In doing so, we act out a role- assuming responsibility to control and dominant these- regardless of anything short of that which would cause us to break from the role. In short, it is arguable that we all play a role in life. That we might define these roles, and act in them, but they are still us. A role is position or part one takes. To play it is to act it out- whether such acting is for show, for deception, or sincerely. The speicific connotation, "to act in a role for show or deception" covers the most common usages, so it's easy to forget that there also exists, "to act in a role sincerely [or naturally]".

MadRabbit -> RE: Dominance and Responsibility (6/6/2007 3:13:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CitizenCane I agree with this- I was not in any way trying to say that the assumption of added responsibility by the dom diminishes the sub's responsibility. However, I think that two ideas are being conflated here- first, the idea of 'moral/ethical responsibility', which, though admitedly vague, is the kind I was referring to, and second, 'responsibility for performance', which is what you seem to be focused on. Certainly a submissive takes on tremendous responsibility for performance. In the moral/ethical realm, I believe that people who are capable of responsibility have it, no matter what. I also believe that in a D/s dynamic, it's often the case, for greater or lesser periods of time, that submissives enter a mind set in which responsibility for their actions is reduced or impaired. Is there a meta-responsibility about getting into a situation where this mindset takes over? Of course- depending on the degree to which it and it's effects can be anticipated. I merely contend that if I, as a dominant, deliberately induce that mindset in another, by whatever means, I take on a significant burdern of responsibility for the actions they perform at my behest. I understand where you and Faramir are coming from and agree with it, but when I explain the relationship to someone, I stress a lot the concept of "two equal consenting adults working together to make a relationship work" I'm responsible for providing direction. She is responsible for following that direction. I'm responsible for making good decisions. She is responsible for providing feedback for why its a bad decision. However... I wont use the excuse that "Well, you should have told me it was a bad decision" to negate my responsibility. I would be equally disapointed if she followed threw with the decision and came back later and said "Well, I knew it was wrong because of X, Y, and Z, but I did it anyways because your the boss." If she didnt think it was a bad idea or was too lost in her own mindset, a valid situation that I never really even considered, then ultimately the responsibility falls on me. If she told me it was a bad idea and I told her to do it anyways, the responsibility falls on me. I think there is a line and I think the idea of all responsibility falls on me for whatever outcome of my authority reduces someone from a consenting, intiellgent and functional adult to a mere child. Now...responsibility for performance is a whole other topic. If I didnt hold someone accountable for that, there would be no grounds to correct their behavior which is something I do all the time. As much control/authority/power we like to think we have, I have yet to be in a relationship where at some point where certain issues and problems were out of my hands and it was solely on the efforts of the submissive to make it work. I can give the order, make the corrections, provide punishment, whatever, but at best, I am implying incentive threw discipline to get what I want. They still have to make a choice to do it and do it right. This is where the other person's own power comes into play which is why I use the words "authority exchange" and stress "two equal people working to make an authority based relationship work."

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