RE: Ladies and....ladies? (Full Version)

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Vendaval -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 12:12:14 AM)

Much of chivalrous behavior is shown in the attitude and focus of a person's attention.



Elorin -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 12:58:43 AM)

~using fast reply~
I find out what he drinks, so that if the waitress comes while a man is in the restroom I can order drinks for us.

I skip a beat when unbuckling my seatbelt or entering a building so he may gracefully open a door, if he wishes, without it being obvious or awkward if he does not wish.

I allow a man to carry packages for me if he offers, even if I'm fully able to carry them myself.

If a man says "I should have gotten that" (carry a package, open a door, etc) I make sure to give them the opportunity next time.

I say thank you for each gesture of courtesy that I notice, and try to convey sincerity in doing it.




LadyEllen -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 3:31:22 AM)

Graciousness of manner and sincere appreciation for his efforts, such that he knows its not taken for granted.

Mind you, I find something odd when I receive those little courtesies - it tends to make me live up to the same standard. Not that I'm normally rude or ill mannered, but more that being treated like a lady seems to help me become one! And I would suppose that the same might apply in reverse - that acting ladylike and treating him like a gentleman encourages him to act like one?

But then for me, all these little interactions of the day operate on a reciprocal basis. Be an asshole with me, and I'll be one with you (though in a dignified way, of course) - be nice and I'll be nice and so on. Default setting is always nice, but thats not to say its always on that setting.

One instance that sticks out in my mind was when I was on the train back from London - it was packed as they always are in the UK, and many of us were standing whilst many of those sitting took up two seats (one for them, one for their bags etc). A Pakistani guy caught my eye and beckoned me over and gave me the seat next to him. Of all the people standing, he chose me! We chatted and shared my sweets all the way to Oxford. One might suppose he had ulterior motives, but hardly - in a packed train to Birmingham when he was getting off halfway? Interesting that not one of the fine upstanding white guys did the same.

E




LadyPact -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 5:31:10 AM)

Wonderful thread, sea.  My schedule didn't permit Me the time to hop on the 'gentlemen' thread.  I hope I'll do justice with this one.
 
As I've mentioned on the boards before, the "Lady Pact" name was given to Me.  It was given to Me by people in the lifestyle, but it's also stuck with those vanilla in the crowd that co-mingle with us.  I've been told on more than one occassion that it suited Me for multi-faceted reasons.  The BDSM folks use it because they know I'm Dominant.  The vanilla folks picked it up and ran with it because they've seen My interactions with others.  Most particularly, when they've seen Me in public with My (whichever one at the time) boy. 
 
While I do agree with the other thread that was started by Lady Ellen, that certain manners have fallen by the wayside, it's all the more reason to appreciate those who still use them.  If a boy opens My car door, he's made My day, and I make sure that he knows it.  Offer to hold My basket at the market, I'll be happy to tell you just how appreciative I am.  (I have to mention this one, because it literally happened out of the blue.)  Kneel before Me just for the chance of speaking to Me, you will get My attention for the entire evening.  Being ladylike isn't always necessarily doing a favor in return.  Sometimes, it is the acknowledgement of the small courtesy done for you that makes all of the difference.
 
Now, do I consider Myself the picturesque vision Miss Manners had when envisioning a lady.... No, I really don't.  I've said more than My share of four letter words.  I've been downright crude, blunt, and even obnoxious a time or two.  Yet, I do have a level of decorum.  Treat Me with respect and you will receive it back.  Go out of your way to show a courtesy, and it will be repaid tenfold.



MsKatHouston -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 7:50:06 AM)

quote:

I don't know if there are others out there but speaking for myself, being a person who acts with dignity, courtesy, respect, honor, integrity, and character are much more important than any bullshit lady-like gestures.


how is acting with "dignity, courtesy, respect, honor, integrity, and character" NOT being a lady?



pixelslave -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 8:56:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SDFemDom4cuck

quote:

Chivalry is based on a code of ethics or beliefs related to honor, integrity, fidelity, and numorous other subjects dating back to at least the 12th century and earlier (generally the time period of the crusades are where records exist that I've personally read).  It is far more than a matter of good manners. [&:]

 
Interesting...so are you saying that a female cannot act in a chivalrous manner?




No, not at all Ms Jo, in fact if I'm not mistaken, history shows there were a great number of women who were members of several of the numerous chivalric orders of which I'm familiar with:  in particular The Order of the Knights Templar and The Knights of Malta, both of which dedicated themselves to protecting those making pilgrimages to the Holy Lands as well as healing those who had been injured fighting in the Holy Wars. [;)]
 
I studied their codes of conduct and rites of membership when I was much younger (late teens and early 20's), learning a great deal in the process.  This period of study helped me form my beliefs regarding my own values and conduct; integrating codes of Chivalry into my belief system and the personal standards to which I hold myself to. [&:]  
 
I was a member of a modern "Order of Knighthood" at the time, which was based on things written from that particular period.  I helped teach those principles to many young men who joined the organization, rising through the ranks to lead our local organization as a Knight Commander at the time (equivalent to a chapter President, except covering more of a regional area), and later serving as a State Officer for 3 years; helping to promote the values it stood for while studying and learning even more about Chivalry and it's origins as I did so. 
 
I'm not certain the organization even still exists at this time.  If so, it is barely a shell of what it was at the time I was a member, as I know it and the appendent organizations it rose from greatly declined in the decade and a half that followed.  At 25 one reaches the age of majority, becoming time for them to move on; leaving it to those younger to take their place of leadership.  I have lost track of it as my friends who remained active as advisors have either since passed-on (including my best friend) or gone their seperate ways.  I have relocated numerous times since then, which includes moves to 2 different states on my own journey through life. [>:]
 
 - pixel



MistressLorelei -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 8:58:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

Sure, a thank and a smile is polite and I do the same when someone holds the door open for me. The types of gesture I am thinking of are those that demonstrate some form of initiative to convey a gesture of regard.

I agree that most men who perform a chivalrous act do not want the same done in turn. For instance, I am happy to assume responsibility for opening doors without taking turns. However, I think the regard can be conveyed through some other gesture. The point I am bringing to focus in not a barter or an exchange of acts on a quid pro quo basis, but that how regard or gestures of regard can flow in both directions.  

Sure, men like to do it and women like to receive it. And chivalrous behavior is done without expectation of, at least, the same behavior in turn. I agree that most men would prefer to open doors for women and not want it the other way around. However, the point is not the specific act, but the act of conveying regard. Sure, the act may be done without reciprocation. Would it not be nice if a gesture of kindness was returned (not necessarily at the same time but in general)? I don't think most men would mind if the regard (versus the specific act) was reciprocated. They might not want it in the same form they give it (opening doors) but I think in general people appreciate a gesture of kindness or regard. If there is a double standard, why is it there, and what if it was not there?

Is whatever difference there might be driven by the mismatch in power of sensuality and attraction?

As for why mess with history, I doubt this flow of gestures has been completely one sided. If we say that it was for sake of discussion, I think that that one thing was done in a particular way in the past is not a compelling justification for status quo.

Thank you for your post.

Cheers,

Sea



Yes, I do think that  the double standard exists because originally chivalry was a male thing....  A woman never had to prove her masculinity as a protector  or her honor or gallantry.   The double standard only exists because the knights put in on the table to begin with.... because women were thought to be the weaker, more fragile gender.

I really am polite to everyone initially...  so I don't think I need to be extra polite to the male gender because males have the chivalrous behavior standards to abide by (or not).  My 'chivalrous acts' have no double standard per se.. I am an equal opportunity do-gooder.

However, there are certainly circumstances where a stranger who is male will be treated differently than a female stranger that could be construed as a distinct regard:

I smile and engage in  flirty conversations with the male gender and not the female gender.

But most of all....  Women are willing to put up with more  questionable behavior from a male than a female.  Males (in general) are louder, more boisterous, more vulgar and rough around the edges.  Women give the male gender a "boys will be boys" card to play when the need arises.  How's that for courtesy?.

I think that another way women offer an extra helping of respect toward the male gender is that males can take a certain comfort in knowing that a woman will often offer her built-in nurturing, care-taking feature when she notices a male in distress.  It's not an everyday exhibition (like holding a door), but it's in the air... it's there.  



pixelslave -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 9:33:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: pixelslave
Chivalry is based on a code of ethics or beliefs related to honor, integrity, fidelity, and numorous other subjects dating back to at least the 12th century


Your post and google helped me learn a bit more about the origins of the word chivalry ;-) Sure, the word originally described a code of behavior associated with knights and had a broader scope. While most definitions today refer to this code, here is one I found:

quote:


American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source



chiv·al·ry  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif[/image]  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif[/image]   (shĭv'əl-rē)  Pronunciation Key 
n.   pl. chiv·al·ries
  • The medieval system, principles, and customs of knighthood.

  • The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry toward women.
  • A manifestation of any of these qualities.

    1. A group of knights or gallant gentlemen.



        1. Per definition b, a manifestation of courtesy is regarded as chivalry. And common use today describes courteous behavior as chivalry--a man opening a car door for a woman, which is a courtesy, is said to be chivalrous. With my encounters with and impression about the word, it is not commonly used to describe bravery or dexterity with arms as done by the original and some contemporary dictionary definitions.

        In any case, I think the point is to calibrate terminology. What we are discussing is courteous behavior, and gestures of kindness and regard. So we can say the question is what courteous behaviors or gestures of kindness and regard do women extend to men in the same spirit as men extend these gestures to women?


        No problem for me Sea if you want to talk about courtesy.  Before doing so I'd just like to make the point that under definition b, courtesy is only one quality associated with or idealized by Knighthood and the Chivalry that went along with it.  Thus, I don't equate the two as being one and the same.  There was more on that in my response to Ms Jo.  However, I'm more than willing to talk about courtesy I do think it is an important quality in both sexes. [:D]
         
        Courtesty is important enough that it's something that I stress and expect of my unmentionables.  They don't get what they want without a please and thank you, and they know that when they're with me.  Politeness and respect toward others is something that is always expected at all times.  I'm proud of the many times I've been complimented on their behavior when we've been in public.  Yet, they still know how to have fun.  They also know when it's time to listen (not that they always do) and show respect to others by allowing them to finish their sentences.  I continue to help them work on that.  LOL!
         
        As to receiving courtesy from women, I've been fortunate to have received that from my Mistress in that she was either taught it or learned those courtesies herself as well (I believe the former to be the case).  When I carry packages for her and have my hands full, although I'd normally open doors for her, being practical herself, instead she shows me courtesy by opening them for me instead. [:D]  
         
        Another example would be that I've had two back surgeries related to an auto accident, and when helping her unload her vehicle, she naturally chooses to grab the heaviest bag (the one she likes to pack everything in until it's stuffed solid) so as not to overstress my back (not that I'm an invalid or anything like that), and I truly appreciate that as I do want to help, but it's also not worth the risk to have me pick up things that she's overloaded of her own accord and she recognizes that.  To me that's another gesture of being courteous, not to mention protecting her property so she doesn't spoil our time together should I happen to strain my back. [;)]
         
        So there's two examples I can personally think of.  Another is the kind of things she does during aftercare, such as handing me or refilling my water, wiping me down with a fresh washcloth, etc.  I've never had the kind of tender aftercare before in the gentle, loving and caring way such as she provides. [:)]
         
         - pixel



        pixelslave -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 9:45:18 AM)

        quote:

        ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
        I smile and engage in  flirty conversations with the male gender and not the female gender.


        Is that not a double standard as well?  A man who is flirty can be consider non-gentlemanly in doing so, inappropriate in his behavior, if not downright rude, depending on the circumstances and the woman involved.
         

        quote:


        I think that another way woman offer an extra helping of respect toward the male gender is that males can take a certain comfort in knowing that a woman will often offer her built-in nurturing, care-taking feature if she notices a male in distress.  It's not an everyday exhibition (like holding a door), but it's in the air... it's there.  


        I suspect you may have something specific in mind with this comment.  Would you perhaps mind elaborating?  Many men are often willing to come to the aid of someone they see who appears to be in distress.  Perhaps you may be referring to situations involving the liklihood of a of a male being willing to accept emotional assistance in times of distress from a nurturing woman where he might not from accept it from another male who was offering the same nurturing kind of willingness to listen and try to be of help?
         
         - pixel



        MistressLorelei -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 10:36:07 AM)

        quote:

        ORIGINAL: pixelslave

        quote:

        ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
        I smile and engage in  flirty conversations with the male gender and not the female gender.


        Is that not a double standard as well?  A man who is flirty can be consider non-gentlemanly in doing so, inappropriate in his behavior, if not downright rude, depending on the circumstances and the woman involved.
         

        quote:


        I think that another way woman offer an extra helping of respect toward the male gender is that males can take a certain comfort in knowing that a woman will often offer her built-in nurturing, care-taking feature if she notices a male in distress.  It's not an everyday exhibition (like holding a door), but it's in the air... it's there.  


        I suspect you may have something specific in mind with this comment.  Would you perhaps mind elaborating?  Many men are often willing to come to the aid of someone they see who appears to be in distress.  Perhaps you may be referring to situations involving the liklihood of a of a male being willing to accept emotional assistance in times of distress from a nurturing woman where he might not from accept it from another male who was offering the same nurturing kind of willingness to listen and try to be of help?
         
         - pixel


        I may not open doors for every male I pass by,  but I do offer kindness, politeness, friendliness to all- no double standard at all.  If the double standard exists on the part of the male's chivalrous acts...  it's a residual effect.  I should not be less nice to the female gender to make the males feel extra-appreciated. It's hard to put my finger on just what gender speficic courtesy I display to males only, when I find myself being courteous to all.

        Genders have differences... and what the genders expect and find appropriate in each other's genders are different as well.  I don't think a double standard is necessarily bad in many respects. Males are more likely to welcome a flirty advance from women, women are more likely to find it inappropriate... though not always.

        Isn't it a double standard for the males who open a door for just women, carry her packages, etc.... to not offer the same courtesy for all the males he encounters as well?   I am not a feminist in that respect, I appreciate the differences in gender.  I am proud of my femininity, and I admire physical strength in a male.  Feminity is power in its own respect, perhaps that is why the 'double standard' still exists. 

        I will elaborate on the comment in question, though you seemed to get my point somewhat.  I think males are more likely to accept and trust in many nurturing displays of kindness offered by women, and women are more likely to offer certain affections to a male stranger than they would to a female stranger. 

        For example, recently while next in line at Starbucks, the male barista burned his finger on the machine.... and with pain, kept working.  I talked him into stopping and putting ice in it.  A male likely would not have insisted on the same,  and a woman might have been offended if I had made such an insistence.

        Recently, I spoke with a male I had just met by chance... we began talking and he expressed sadness about going through a divorce.  We wound up in a rather in-depth conversation where I offered some suggestions, and moral support which he appreciated a great deal.  He likely would not have found that comfort in a male he didn't know.

        I think one of the biggest problems with 'double-standards' is that they are acknowledged as a bad thing.  Some just 'are' because there are known and natural differences between genders... and sometimes it's just ok.



        GuidingLite -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 10:43:00 AM)

        <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<arg>>>>>>>>>>> whats with these wuss weak baby questions. 'Ohhhhhh come come the girls dont have to do nice gestures to us boys and show us nice regards tooooo' <waaaaaaaa>
        <sigh>

        quit being all scarred your never gonna have the power like Her.

        women dont have to do these quote: [regard gestures] you worry and speak about and check this BECOZ they dont have to. thats why. womens got what the man wants. yay thats right and quit all fighting it and dont hollar bout it. you think its so unfair and you cry about it and stomp your feet like a passiveagressive fake ass sub. whatever. just come out your closet already that your like really just a lost dom in disguise, dammit. your in a womens world. cry in the sub section and quits trying to fool these WOmens that your a sub when you aint one and aint neva going to be one till you accept it. whats it. you know.



        GuidingLite -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 10:46:35 AM)


        quote:

        ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

        I say thank you and smile when a male holds a door open for me.  I don't think most males who do hold a door open or offer a seat to a woman necessarily want the favor returned ("Here you held the door open for me, now allow me to do the same").  (or cry about it becoz they dont feel special
         
        I will admit there is a double standard with regards to chivalry,  but the males who act in such a way seem to like to do it. (except the ones that already cant accept there inferiority[:)][:)][:)]I like to receive it... sounds fair to me.  Originally, chivalrous behavior included a knightly duty to observe gentleness, graciousness and protection towards women, without expected reciprocation.  Why mess with history. [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]



        [sm=banana.gif]



        Politesub53 -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 11:51:02 AM)

        The word Chivalry stems from the French Chevaler or in English Knight. Originally Knights were a part of the feudal system and would seek strenght in nubers under the banner of the local Lord. Some 300 years or so later, the Church saw a use for the Knights code of honour, getting them to swear on the sword to protect the weak, and the Church.
        How ironic that the Knights Templar were decimated by Philip the IVth ? and the then Pope, who both envied the Templars wealth ( Carried out on a Friday 13th hence the term ) Several Knights Orders had female followers, such as the daughters of Zion, who believed in the same concepts. So the reply to Your question Maam SD has to be yes.
        [;)]



        pixelslave -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 3:23:48 PM)

        quote:

        ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
        Genders have differences... and what the genders expect and find appropriate in each other's genders are different as well.  I don't think a double standard is necessarily bad in many respects. Males are more likely to welcome a flirty advance from women, women are more likely to find it inappropriate... though not always.


        Yes, and that's what I perceived as being a negative example example of a double-standard as I viewed it.  Clearly, it's normally okay for a woman to flirt with a man in a non-business setting, but less acceptable when the roles are reversed. [8|]
         

        quote:


        Isn't it a double standard for the males who open a door for just women, carry her packages, etc.... to not offer the same courtesy for all the males he encounters as well?


        If that were the case, I'd agree.  If men are close behind me, I tend to stand and hold the door open for them, so it's not a situation that I can relate to.  If they seem to be struggling with their packages, yes I'll often offer to help if I don't have packages of my own.  Do I do it all the time, probably not.  As for most of the time, I'd have to say yes; but then I was also a Boy Scout too!  LOL!  All I can really say is that's just me.  I can't speak for others and clearly it's not common in many places. [&:]
         

        quote:


        I think one of the biggest problems with 'double-standards' is that they are acknowledged as a bad thing.  Some just 'are' because there are known and natural differences between genders... and sometimes it's just ok.


        From the examples you gave, I can readily see your point which was why I asked for them.  After considering them, I'd likely agree.  At the same time, I'd also have to say that it's probably more a case of social conditioning on the part of the recipient than that of the giver; kind of a shame in my opinion that people will be picky (predjudiced perhaps?) about whom they are willing to accept help or a type of caring & courtesy from. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m23.gif[/image]
         
        Thank you for elaborating further. [:D]
         
         - pixel



        LaTigresse -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 3:33:30 PM)

        quote:

        ORIGINAL: MsKatHouston

        quote:

        I don't know if there are others out there but speaking for myself, being a person who acts with dignity, courtesy, respect, honor, integrity, and character are much more important than any bullshit lady-like gestures.


        how is acting with "dignity, courtesy, respect, honor, integrity, and character" NOT being a lady?


        Thank you Kat, I was wondering the same thing.



        cloudboy -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 5:46:38 PM)

        Most well reared people have "the basics" in my experience. Rightly or wrongly, I take pleasantries and manners for granted. Pleasantries / manners are nice, but that's it.

        To me, the best affirmative thing a lady can do for a man is boost his confidence when he needs it during the rough seas of life. There's nothing like the partisan support and insightful understanding of a woman gets you and the situation you're dealing with.




        pinksissyPA -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 5:51:56 PM)

        quote:

        ORIGINAL: MHOO314

        I never spit My tobacco in the street, I don't whistle at the opera and I don't park My gum behind My ear---ok ok I'm frisky this evening---
         
        That is a hard question to answer, because I am what I am--and I do think I am all Lady, until the sun sets.



        Can i meet You t sun down?

        winks

        pink



        GuidingLite -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 6:44:46 PM)


        quote:

        ORIGINAL: pixelslave


          Clearly, it's normally okay for a woman to flirt with a man in a non-business setting, but less acceptable when the roles are reversed. [8|]
         



        coz of the two one poses more of a threat over the other. ones more aggressive and weighs more than the other. shytballs



        undergroundsea -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 6:47:59 PM)

        Thanks for all the responses.

        Cheers,

        Sea



        undergroundsea -> RE: Ladies and....ladies? (6/7/2007 6:49:55 PM)

        quote:

        ORIGINAL: GuidingLite


        This thread stems from a discussion about manners and elegant behavior, which is probably not of interest to you. Please come back and join us on another thread.

        Cheers,

        Sea



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