Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Majority of Americans favor the death penalty


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Majority of Americans favor the death penalty Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Majority of Americans favor the death penalty - 6/10/2007 10:10:52 AM   
NoirUMC


Posts: 132
Joined: 4/17/2007
Status: offline
lol. Right. Every time I see something that claims forty percent of this country can agree on anything it raises my eyebrow. The left one. The one that's attached to my bullsh** detector.


_____________________________

-J

Working around the clock to find new and entertaining misspellings

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Majority of Americans favor the death penalty - 6/10/2007 12:50:42 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
i think most of the "oops" wrongfully convicted cases have arisen from dna testing that was not available 20 years ago when they were convicted.  if they confess, or are convicted by dna or other non disputable evidence......then get on with the sentence and rid the earth of them.

And if the confession later turns out to have been coerced from an innocent person what then? http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/us/19cnd-chicago.html?ex=1310961600&en=7d6c899743e68af5&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
http://www.chicagoreader.com/policetorture/

What about when the DNA tests are deliberately falsified?
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Blog2007-04-20.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Zain

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Majority of Americans favor the death penalty - 6/10/2007 1:03:00 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
i think most of the "oops" wrongfully convicted cases have arisen from dna testing that was not available 20 years ago when they were convicted.  if they confess, or are convicted by dna or other non disputable evidence......then get on with the sentence and rid the earth of them.

And if the confession later turns out to have been coerced from an innocent person what then? http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/us/19cnd-chicago.html?ex=1310961600&en=7d6c899743e68af5&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
http://www.chicagoreader.com/policetorture/

What about when the DNA tests are deliberately falsified?
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/Blog2007-04-20.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Zain



for every point i could make-there is a counter point to be made also......i have my feelings about this subject, probably influenced(ok for sure influenced) by having had a family member i adored slaughtered in a most horrible way....a friends son was also shot while riding his bike years ago, and the kid that shot him said "i did it to see what it felt like to shoot someone, i did not think he would die".

this admitted murderers trial was not a capital punishment trial-because just to murder someone does not constitute a death penalty case.  had he taken the kids wallet or bike-it would have been a death penalty case.

so he admitted killing this kid-yes i think he should have been put in the electric chair.....but it was not even an option.

there will always be mistakes made, but i stick to my original hell yes i am for the death penalty-i think it should be more widely available to those who take the life of another, and id even go as far as saying anyone that sexually abuses children should be killed too.

this is my opinion, and i stand by it.  i have mentioned 2 people who confessed to killing-the evidence backed the confession, yet they are still alive and being supported by my tax dollars.  in my mind, that is terribly wrong.

an eye for an eye......it works for me and i wish it were handed out more often.


_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Majority of Americans favor the death penalty - 6/10/2007 1:10:43 PM   
selfbnd411


Posts: 598
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
What about when the DNA tests are deliberately falsified?


Yawn...

"A spokesman for the Police Department, Paul J. Browne, said the falsified test results in 2002 had no bearing on actual court cases, since they were revealed in a routine procedure of “blind proficiency tests” designed as internal checks on the integrity and competence of civilian criminalists, 100 of whom are now employed by the crime laboratory."

You just know that Newfeld would love to have an example of a DNA test leading to a wrongful conviction.  The fact that he can't find a single example speaks volumes.  The system works.

I provided an example in which a posthumous DNA test proved that a supposedly innocent executed killer was proven guilty by DNA.  Can you provide me a single case in which DNA evidence proves that an innocent person was wrongfully executed in the last 20 years?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Majority of Americans favor the death penalty - 6/10/2007 2:01:43 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
So the lab techs were falsifying results in these "blind prficiency tests" but somehow not doing so in the rest of their work? You do know what they mean by blind test don't you? The work came across each techs desk just like a regular case for testing.

As to proving the innocence of an executed prisoner by DNA evidence I can't. To the best of my knowledge all the cases where testing might prove such has occured have been tied up in court and then judges have allowed the destruction of the evidence after the execution because the case is now "moot". But here are some cases to think very hard about:
http://www.justicedenied.org/executed.htm

(in reply to selfbnd411)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Majority of Americans favor the death penalty - 6/10/2007 6:08:37 PM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

for every point i could make-there is a counter point to be made also......i have my feelings about this subject, probably influenced(ok for sure influenced) by having had a family member i adored slaughtered in a most horrible way....a friends son was also shot while riding his bike years ago, and the kid that shot him said "i did it to see what it felt like to shoot someone, i did not think he would die".



I'm sorry to hear about your loss. While I haven't lost anyone close to me, I have lost a wonderful employer who just happened to be gay and who was beaten to death for being gay.

But are you sure it's justice you want, or retribution? You do realise, do you not, that in executing these two men you cause two other families to be bereaved?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

this admitted murderers trial was not a capital punishment trial-because just to murder someone does not constitute a death penalty case. had he taken the kids wallet or bike-it would have been a death penalty case.



And rightly so. While it can be argued that many murders are committed with premeditation and enough force used, or the correct means, to kill someone there are other murders committed where someone didn't mean to kill someone but merely to harm them or cause them bodily harm but excessive force was used (or inappropriate means) and the victim died as a result.

When you apply the ultimate penalty - i.e. the death penalty to all murders it is going to be rendered ineffective by all sorts of defense strategies which will argue that there was no intention to kill and to try and get the accused convicted of a lesser charge of manslaughter or even unlawful killing. Since you are unable to read the mind of a murderer at the moment when they do kill all you have is what the criminal themselves are prepared to admit to and crime scene and forensic evidence which may not prove beyond all reasonable doubt that this person intended to murder someone else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

so he admitted killing this kid-yes i think he should have been put in the electric chair.....but it was not even an option.



Why the electric chair? It IS an option but only in certain states if the condemned prisoner so chooses to die in the electric chair. Only in Nebraska is it the only option but this may change in the near future. The other three remaining states - Alabama, Florida and Georgia all abandoned the electric chair after the Allen Lee Davis execution in Florida in July 2000 and the appeal lodged by Thomas Harrison Provenzano (see Moore vs. Provenzano) which successfully challenged the constitutionality of electrocution as a means of execution under the Eighth Amendment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

there will always be mistakes made, but i stick to my original hell yes i am for the death penalty-i think it should be more widely available to those who take the life of another, and id even go as far as saying anyone that sexually abuses children should be killed too.



I am against the death penalty BECAUSE there are mistakes made. There should never be any justification for the unlawful taking of a life, not even if it a government taking the life of an innocent person in error.

I am far from liberal however in my views on criminal justice. I think the current (European) life sentence of 25 years is a joke. I am a strong advocate of LWOP as I feel it is a deterrent. I think chain gangs are a good idea and feel that Joseph Stalin had the right idea with gulags and labour camps.

I have been witness to seeing how a convicted paedophile managed to abscond from his safe address and place on the Sex Offenders Register and sexually assault three women for which he received..... 12 months imprisonment, but having spent 7 months on remand was allowed to walk free out of court.

I'm very sorry but if you are a paedophile and are unable to live within the limits established by society then you should lose that place in society, and I feel the same about those who sexually abuse others, rapists and murderers. I also feel the same about drug traffickers and violent criminals.

This needn't burden the taxpayer any more. You simply set up labour camps and gulags for those who have committed lesser offences such as assault, robbery, theft and fill their cells with the heavier criminals aforementioned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
this is my opinion, and i stand by it. i have mentioned 2 people who confessed to killing-the evidence backed the confession, yet they are still alive and being supported by my tax dollars. in my mind, that is terribly wrong.


Nobody is being supported by your tax dollars. The fact that you're employed and paying tax dollars just means you are less heavily subsidised than someone on welfare and much less subsidised than someone in prison.

My use of the term taxpayer means all taxpayers, including large multinational corporations and companies who contribute many many more dollars than your average worker. If what you say is true how do you know your taxes go towards the criminal justice system? Do you not realise that you could be spending your entire working life in paying taxes and the sum total of the tax you pay would not even be able to cover three tank shells fired by the US Army in a war such as Iraq?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne
an eye for an eye......it works for me and i wish it were handed out more often.



"An eye for an eye... and in the end we are all blind."
Gandhi.

_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Majority of Americans favor the death penalty - 6/10/2007 7:38:41 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline
I would be okay with eliminating the death penalty under a certain set of circumstances.  There would need to be a constitutional amendment that makes it possible to suspend rights and revoke citixenship to the worst of violent criminals.  There would need to be a cooperative effort by all 50 states in conjunction with the federal government to set up a gulag type prison or something akin to the former Devil's Island of France to handle offenders of this nature.  We have plenty of remote islands in the Pacific that are uninhabited and suitable for this purpose.  These prisoners would cease to exist to the outside world.  There would be no communications with the outside world, no luxuries, and a work or starve type policy.  In effect, these criminals would be exiled from society and shunned.  Like I said, this would require a constitutional amendment.  If something of that nature were to be put in place, I would have no problem eliminating the death penalty.  Exile was the most feared punishment in many ancient societies; it was more feared than death.  I see no reason why this could not work in a modern society. 

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 6/10/2007 7:41:51 PM >

(in reply to stella40)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Majority of Americans favor the death penalty - 6/11/2007 5:33:19 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
Stella, you make some good points, very few which i agree with, because this is something i feel very strongly about.

to me, i do not care if the person intended to murder my aunt while beating her to death with a bottle, and leaving his shoe print in her belly, which would be used against him later.

i do not care that that idiot kid only shot tommy to see what it felt like to shoot someone, and oops i didnt think he would die.

i do not care if a person only meant to "whip that kids ass to make him listen" and the death was accidental.

i do not care if someone never drove drunk except the one time that resulted in them hittin a family head on and killing a mother of 3 small children.

in my mind-and i shall not change my mind.... unless you are defending your life or the life of a loved one, fighting in a war(be it in the service or as a cop),once you take the life of another human being, you have no right to steal oxygen from the rest of the world.

do folks believe like me? some do, some dont....will i ever be in a position to make the laws like i would love to have them be......of course not.......but i have no second thoughts about my feelings on this subject-and i defend your right to disagree with me.

i see the world through my eyes, colored by my experiences, and that makes me who i am, in my actions and my beliefs.  i can not and will not feel bad for how i believe and feel.

just as i would not expect you to feel wrong on your beliefs.......i agree to disagree here.

some things are so deeply felt, nothing will ever change ones mind on it.......such as abortion.......my feeling is "if you do not believe in them-do not get one", but that debate will rage on as long as the one on capital punishment.

i can thank you and the others for making me think, weigh how i feel, and come back to the same place.....i wish the death penalty was handed out more frequently to those who take anothers life.  in my mind(and lawd knows i do not claim to be a genius), it is just that simple and cut and dry.







_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

(in reply to stella40)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Majority of Americans favor the death penalty - 6/11/2007 9:49:34 PM   
stella40


Posts: 417
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: London, UK
Status: offline
Thank you for your comments, SeeksOnlyOne. I have no wish to trivialise your feelings, I too have been a victim of crime but not quite as serious as you, I understand your feelings, I feel pretty much the same about such crimes as you do and feel we do actually have some common ground.

But I don't see the death penalty as being the solution nor even an effective deterrent. Most of those who commit these more heinous crimes, and let's face it, they are heinous, never figure that they're going to get the death penalty. It's kind of like a mental block.

I admit that I once wavered on my position regarding the death penalty. I was in Poland. I was reading an article about a gangster serving a life sentence in a Warsaw prison who had been incarcerated for some 8 years. Now the Polish prison system - and please don't ask me why because I cannot explain the logic behind this - allows prisoners out of prison every so often for 1-2 days to be with their families. And you had this gangster via a newspaper vowing to 'settle scores' and kill other people when he was released. I did spend some time thinking that maybe if prison isn't enough to prevent him killing, then he should be executed. But then again, why let someone out of prison for any reason during their sentence?

I think there is a Commandment which states Thou Shall Not Kill. I am a Buddhist, the first of five Precepts states 'Do not destroy life'. I take this quite literally.

The death penalty in the United States is a product of British colonial rule up until the time when it was declared unconstitutional and then again declared constitutional post-Furman in 1976 with the implementation of the two stage death penalty trial by jury - the guilt innocence stage and the penalty phase.

This new two stage trial has not prevented miscarriages of justice, and over a thousand executions later, with roughly a third of them occurring in Texas alone, it is not any sort of deterrent. Those unfit to comprehend any sort of justice, the criminally insane and mentally impaired - people like Ricky Ray Rector, Dalton Prejean and Jerome Bowden - were still executed. A few who had committed crimes as juveniles were also executed.

You can go to the Texas Department of Criminal Justice website at any time and look up the cases under Scheduled Executions and see how cheap life has become. Every month at least two prisoners are taken to Huntsville and are executed and it appears that there are many more prepared to replace them on Death Row.

I don't make any exceptions. There are no exceptions. How many times do you hear when someone has received the death penalty or is about to be executed that they had a difficult childhood? Is this really a defense argument? I had a difficult childhood, but it in no way justifies me if I choose to kill someone.

I also don't make any distinction between Ted Bundy, Timothy MacVeigh and President Bush. You can take any of the statutes from California to Georgia, convict Bush of first degree murder (or genocide) and find enough aggravating circumstances to sentence him to death. The charge could be for the murder of Saddam Hussein - fully premeditated, calculated, and for financial gain. And as for mitigating factors? The immediate threat of Saddam and the weapons of mass destruction? Where is the evidence? The fact that Bush is a head of state? No. If so, would that mean he could go and murder any American citizen?

This may seem ridiculous, but law is all about principles and how those principles are applied. To have justice all principles have to be applied to all people fairly. The principle of the death penalty in the United States is not applied fairly. In fact it is very arbitrary. It is therefore not justice.

I feel maybe a better solution would be the implementation of gun control and another look at the American constitutional right to bear arms.

The United States isn't any different to any other country on this planet, it has a significant proportion of idiots. My reasoning is very simple:

gun + idiot + error of judgement = unlawful killing

It won't solve the problem of criminals in society - nothing will - and no matter how good your justice system is, you will always have those who break the law, you will always have murderers, rapists, thugs, robbers and such.

Therefore a good justice system in my opinion makes it difficult to commit a crime, it has laws which make it clear what is a crime, and appropriate penalties to deal with those who commit crimes.

The taking of a life for me is the ultimate crime and should face the ultimate penalty - removal from society permanently, no ifs, no buts. End of. The same should happen to anyone who puts someone in a life-threatening situation, or who commits a crime which has a major effect on someone's life.

I also feel that impact should play a greater role in sentencing, and that a murderer should not only have to answer for the death of their victim, but also for the bereavement and impact it has to other family members. So too the rapist should have to answer not only for the non-consensual sexual act but also the difficulties caused to the victim and others as a result of the rape.

And to me, sentencing someone to death and later strapping them to a trolley and injecting them with Pavulon is the easy way out.

_____________________________

I try to take one day at a time, but several days come and attack me at once. (Jennifer Unlimited)

If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.


(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 49
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3]
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Majority of Americans favor the death penalty Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.098