MemphisDsCouple
Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
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Trusting Limits
Whenever the subject of Limits comes up, if there is one subtopic that rises to the top more often than "pushing" Limits, it is that of Trust. How we got from point A to point Z without reciting the rest of the alphabet can only be answered by hypothesis because there is no clear, logical trail. I am not a gloom-and-doom kinda guy, but I'm going to cite some very real, vivid and horrible examples below because I think it might be appropriate to shock some reality back into this concept.
Most of us know about John Edward Robinson. Billed as the first internet serial killer, Robinson apparently preyed on submissive women online, eventually working through all the conversations (no doubt including the setting of the submissives' Limits) to set up meetings with them from which many never returned. Instead, they were found stuffed in metal drums on Robinson's farm. What the reader may not know is that Robinson isn't the only dominant rapist and killer who has used the internet as his trolling ground. If the reader is interested in reading about some more of those gruesome examples you can find a list and links here: ( http://www.io.com/~ambrosio/dating/safenote.html ). (A note: I do not recommend the advice found on this page. I offer it for the sake of the links only.)
Now, let me pose a question to the thinkers among us: Do you think and believe that these assaulters, rapists and murderers discussed Limits and agreed, promised and swore on their mothers' graves to honor, respect and abide by each and every single Limit their doomed submissive victims could come up with? Why, of course they did! I can hear it in my mind as I write this. "Oh, honey! You do me an injustice! I would never do that to you!" And then: "You can trust me!"
Now listen people, and especially women: Agreement to a Limit has absolutely nothing to do with inspiring Trust. Think about it. If someone agrees to your Limits, that is an act that has zero meaning to you at all insofar as creating Trust is concerned! I wish I had the energy to type that about a hundred times for emphasis.
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ORIGINAL: cheekybottom
The male half of MemphisDsCouple:
I’m intrigued by your statement:
quote:
It seems clear that "limits" are a restraint of the dominant by the submissive.
And yet I can’t help but see the restraint it would place upon the submissive not allowed having limits, her fear manifests itself and becomes bondage.
I understand this is what submissives are taught. The same lesson is taught on the page I linked to above. I understand why submissives rely on Limits. Now, however, to show how very silly internet reasoning can be - consider this:
Submissives are taught they are supposed to fear the man who will not agree to their Limits and Trust the man who agrees. But, I propose that you think about it. When you meet that man, the man who refuses to agree to your Limits, or the man who will not even allow the concept of Limits in his relationship with you, you just *might* (only maybe) have met an honest man you can actually Trust. Do you see this? If he were untrustworthy he would have agreed to anything, knowing all the while that in the end he will do whatever he wants to do! It makes little difference whether he contemplates ignoring your Limits any time he feels like it, or whether he contemplates pushing past your Limits a bit more gradually - either way, he is deceiving you when he agrees to your Limits and you can *not* Trust this man!
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ORIGINAL: cheekybottom
The male half of MemphisDsCouple:
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Do you see this as self-destructive to the relationship? I do. Do you see limits as destructive to the magic and the very soul of the d/s dynamic? I do.
In a twisted and perverse way, yes I do. But then can ”I trust you to hurt me?”
I hope I have begun to answer that question.
So, what's a poor girl to do?
Look. This is really not such a complicated question/problem/situation. The real complication here is not a question of Trust, rather, the real complication is a question of time. We are impatient. We are a now generation in a now society. We want a formula that will settle the question of Trust in an instant. Sorry. It just ain't so. True enough, I have met women from out of town and quicker than a cat can get up a tree we were upstairs in a hotel being wicked to beat the band. They took their chances. They were ok. Their judgement was good, or they lucked out, or call it whatever you want to call it. But the plain fact is, they did not have what they needed to make a judgement of Trust about me.
Otoh, for one thing I never ask a girl to submit to me. She has to ask me. So, they never felt pressured in any way. Perhaps that is a sign of trustworthiness. I hope so. Also, the fact that I have a woman they could meet and talk to and get to know in addition to the conversations they might have with me might be a pretty big factor. Further, I am an honest man and as such I can stand scrutiny on that subject. So maybe I'm not a good example. But be that as it may, my point is that there is no mathematical formula for creating Trust between two people. And to the extent Limits are sold to unsuspecting submissives as a Trust creator, those submissives are being very badly and dangerously served. Take the time to get to know a dominant. In the flesh. There is no substitute for that.
Trust the dominant who shows through the examples of how he lives his life: compassion, understanding, consideration, consistency, honesty and so on. That is the way we judge Trustworthiness in every other facet of our lives. It will serve us well in our d/s and s&m lives as well.
A caveat: As I said in an earlier post: Using Limits to set up a brief "play" "scene" is different. If you're at a group function there is likely a DM to see that your Limits are adhered to. If you are a 'nilla or newbie couple just beginning to explore s&m for a couple of hours in your own bedroom on Friday night, you already have established a relationship of Trust. These are the situations I think Wiseman envisioned when he taught Limits in his book, "SM 101: A Realistic Introduction". And these are the situations in which Limits and Trust can, at least to a minimal degree, be brought together into the same sentence.
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ORIGINAL: sprite67
If the actions of a Dominant cause a submissive to feel violated or betrayed, then his/her trust cannot be maintained
Very true. And that has nothing at all to do with Limits. That could be about fidelity, money, deception, general unreliability or a multitude of things.
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ORIGINAL: sprite67
So, before entering into a relationship with a dominant, it is important for the submissive to state clearly "these things will cause me to be unable to trust you" and for the dominant to recognize that this either is or is not something that he WISHES to engage in based on that information.
Yes. And that is exactly the alternative I recommend. Talk. Communicate. I really think it is counter productive to use Limits as a communication crutch. I have explained why that is my opinion.
I suggest this: A submissive wants a dominant to lead. (At least that is my belief.) So, let the dominant lead. Don't give him a crutch and say, this is my Limit List. See if he leads you into discussions. See if he creates a relationship that has at its core a philosophy of communication. See if he finds out these things about you. See if he asks what turns you on and what turns your stomach. Form your opinion of what kind of leader and dominant he is, not by what he says, but by what he does - and by how he does it!
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ORIGINAL: sprite67
But a Dominant wishing to maintain that trust and control would consider these things carefully because it was of benefit to them, and allowed them to exert more control, not less.
Exactly! And, I propose that the submissive is better off observing and seeing if he does that, rather than telling him to do it through a Limit list!
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ORIGINAL: sprite67
There are certainly things for which there would need to be extensive discussion before I was able to be subjected to and maintain the level of trust I wish to have in my relationship. And some of them are things that would simply not work at all even after discussion. What those are are probably different for each human involved.
Yes. But!
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ORIGINAL: cheekybottom
We each have our limits while a few select ones do not, but those of us who do know that even our hard ones tend to turn into limits that can later be pushed, and what was once our push able limits are then no longer limitations. Our experiences not only teach us, but aides us as well.
The fact that the OP had grown within herself enough, and had gained enough self knowledge to understand that Limits are not really Limits was one of the major factors involved in my decision to begin to write on the subject of Limits. I knew it would be a long and arduous labor for me. I knew it would take a considerable portion of my vacation time. But the fact that this person had grown so much on her own, and then had the intelligence and the drive to ask which way to turn inspired me in no small measure to offer my thoughts on this topic.
So, the Limits of today are the memories of tomorrow. Build your house not on Limits, for it is a house of twigs. Rather, build a solid, enduring and fulfilling house on the cornerstone of communication. This is my counsel.
That, I think, is the way to be guided to places you have only dreamed of - and beyond to places of which you even fear to dream.
There, I think, is where you will find:
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ORIGINAL: cheekybottom
spirituality of trust where limits dissolve and the fears that we fight and hate now enfolds us and strengthens us.
And therein, I "Trust" will be found the answer to the question:
quote:
ORIGINAL: cheekybottom
can ”I trust you to hurt me?”
And so, I think I have finished with the topic of Limits. I hope at least one reader has found food for thought and personal growth in my observations.
Postscript:
You are welcome to print or save this post for your own use. Please do not copy it to any public or semi-public forum (including email groups/lists) without my express permission. Thanks. All rights reserved. (I write this postscript because after-the-fact someone wrote to me to inform me that they had copied a prior post I wrote to another list. So, I thought I'd better clarify what my preference/policy is regarding use of what I write.)
B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)
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RE: I trust You to hurt me - 
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