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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/10/2007 8:50:01 PM   
Gauge


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quote:

Now if only you could get over your fear of bananas, life would be good.


I am not afraid of the banana... it is evil and I am merely a prophet spreading the word.

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"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/10/2007 10:32:38 PM   
TheHeretic


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         Thanks for sharing such an important point of view, Guage.  I'm outside the AA/12 Step model of recovery, but I've had my own journey to the bottom and the hard climb back out. 

       Watching him on his own version of that spiral is hard.  It helps that there isn't any bullshit between us.  I get to call them as I see them without any of the restraint and gentle words I use here in the forums.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/10/2007 11:39:37 PM   
Lockit


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Hello All,

For the rest of my life, I will be dealing with the effects of my son's mental illness and addictions.  I am ill and I will stress my body... test my emotional endurance and live taking care of him because of what his addictions and emotional needs resulted in.  I saw a problem from age three, but could never find a way to help him. 

He was killing himself one way or another.  He threatened to kill himself when he drank or did drugs and even left notes on the bar at his favorite tavern, but because he spent so much money there, they didn't cut him off.  We decided to go tough love on him.  He had tried to kill himself twice in less than two weeks.  I got him put into psych care for the second time in less than a year and we thought they would take his situation more seriously.  They dx'd him properly, I have it in writing... but they didn't think he had insurance, which he had, but knew if they knew, they would keep him.  I told them that if they didn't protect him from himself and because he was a threat to others... they better take the situation seriously.  They didn't. 

We had plans to go to court to have him committed.  We only asked for two days at most.  We knew that if everyone in his life confronted him he would willingly go for help, but we had to stand together and not everyone was ready to do that until this time.  They knew he would drink and be suicidal and they knew he had put another person besides himself in danger.  They still let him out and six hours later, at his favorite tavern, after drinking all that time... he went to the outdoor smoking area and hung himself with a rope he found there.

He died.  They brought him back.  Now he is brain damaged.

Did he do this to himself?  He sure did.  Did the hospital fail... they sure did.  If not... they wouldn't have tried to do all they have done to cover up the whole mess and make my life hell.

Do I have answers?  Hell no.  Each person is different... each situation different... although there are things that are the same, we have to decide what is best for that situation we find ourselves in.  What kills me is that my son admitted to them that he needed help and yet once a day without his fix... he had to say anything to get out and the professionals didn't catch it or get it.  So I think we made the right choices for his situation... seeking help because he wasn't in his right mind from a number of things.  But I think I would have tied him up and risked arrest than to go to people who say they know best who decided insurance was more important than a life... who really had insurance!  They did get paid very well for bringing him back!

We can debate who was to blame... my son ultimatly, but still I feel those people had an obligation to society to protect them from someone who might harm another, which he had almost already done.  Either way... he now is no longer unhappy... he doesn't know enough to not be happy and I get to live with what everyone else did wrong and look at my son each day and see the same young man as always... only with half a brain.  He lost it all at age 22.  Talk about perm bondage.

If I sound like I feel sorry for myself... please excuse me... I really don/t.  I am just very tired and a bit slow tonight.

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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/10/2007 11:54:23 PM   
ElectraGlide


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I am very sorry to hear what you have been through Lockit. You are right on each situation being different. There does not seem to be any answers like you said.

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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/11/2007 5:17:38 AM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

      I don't see an automatic link between self-destructive behaviors and being intentionally destructive towards others.  That kind of thing isn't in him. 

      Personal safety would have to take priority, but I think Arpig nailed it.  Ultimately, it his choice and I can accept him or reject him for making it.


i agree it is ultimately his choice and there's not a single thing anyone can really do for him but himself. 

i don't know your friend, and maybe he will never be intentionally destructive towards others, but addictions break a person down physically/emotionally/mentally/spiritually until what is left is a shell of who they sued to be. In the beginning many can maintain some semblence of who they were but eventually as the addiction becomes stronger they change. Many simply stop caring about other people and will do anything to get their fix.  If it goes on long enough it does turn your brain into a scrambled mess where even daily functioning is an impossibility. i hope your friend never reaches that point because it's heartwrenching to see and your helpless to create any change. 

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Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/11/2007 1:10:13 PM   
Lockit


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Thank you ElectraGlide...

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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/11/2007 2:40:08 PM   
canupleaseme


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It is so hard when someone close to you is an addict.
I met my best friend out on night in a rave.  I guess you could say we were both addicts but on very different levels.  I liked to party too hard but hd equal amounts of straight days.  He is an alcoholic and had been in rehab twice.  He is also addicted to most class a substances and is known to smoke smack and crack. He has overdosed several times on drugs and alcohol and been involved in every kind of bad situation you could think of being an alcoholic or on hard drugs.  He also got into rent boying for a long time too.  For all of those problems listed I can honestley say he was the best most supportive and caring friend I have evr had.  He helped me stop taking drugs myself and helped me get my life in order after being very depressed for a long time.
He lived with me for just over 2 years and while he lived with me he dried out completely I dont allow drugs in my home or the alcohol to his usual level as I have a u.m.  For a long time things were perfect we were both very happy but it was too much for him to stay straight for that long.  The trouble with him was he loves the life style he loves the drugs and he has so many issues to deal with from taking them and things that happened in his life before all the drugs that being sober and drug free was just too much for him. He was difficult to handle sometimes when he started drinking again, doing it in secret and being paranoid.  Ringing me at inopoutune moments to get reasurance and clinging to me at his worst times.  I had to eventually ask him to leave, it was a really hard thing to do and it took me ages to get that as much as I was prepared to help him stay sobre and clean he had to want to himself and he doesnt want to he choses that life.  It makes me very sad for him but its his decision.  I wouldnt ever turn him away from me and I love him dearly, I worry when his mum calls me thats she is ringing with bad news.  He has early stages of renal failure and isnt a well man at all and he is only 26.  Its so hard watching him to it to himself but he wont change till he is ready so I just have to be there for him.  He will always be my best friend addict or not.  I think sometimes you do just have to accept it if they mean so much to you


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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/11/2007 8:02:51 PM   
Vendaval


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Hey Rich,
 
Addiction is rampant in my family (genetic) and circle of friends (mad, creative types).
Some people lost everything in their lives and some of them died. 
Some cleaned up with assistance and others went cold turkey.
 
You are powerless to change what happens in his life.
Accept that he will walk his path and help him if you can, but the outcome is based on his choices, not yours.
 
Al-Anon is a great resource.  Write me off-list if you wish.
 
Peace,
 
Vendaval

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/11/2007 9:42:33 PM   
TheHeretic


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      Thanks for the replies, and to those who have shared hard experiences.

     It helps that he isn't in denial about the addiction, only about his abilty to change.  That I CAN work on.  Besides, motivating him with squicky descriptions of what the bottom looks like is kinda fun.  You bet I had a suggestion for how he could pass that drug screen  .

      It's not a perfect acceptance, is it?

  

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/11/2007 11:18:10 PM   
Termyn8or


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Been there done that. Now that I got a fresh start on this post I'll put it a different way. The Godz said it best "There's money junkies, booze junkies, sex junkies, dope junkies". And there's one thing that they don't understand.

Hard to find truer words. Like Charlie Manson he had his moments.

Every addict, I don't care if it is hard drugs, excessive alcohol or weed even, there is one thing in common. It is an escape for them. I turned down some free lines of coke last weekend, the guy's jaw was just about on the floor.

I hit rock bottom a couple of decades ago, and I am not going back, not that I will never do coke, I just didn't want it at the time.

I believe I can say that I no longer abuse drugs, but that is not to say I never use them. This is what addicts need to understand. There is something wrong and they want to hide from it. They are hiding from deep personal problems, and if they always want to get completely out of it, it is our job, as people without this problem to see if maybe we can find the key. Finding the original problem is crucial.

Even in the absence of an abusive childhood or some other trauma they can get addicted, but what caused that weakness ? What makes them want to destroy themselves ? Occasional light drug use is not a big problem. It is like a nice little vacation. What I do after work clears my mind and refreshes me to go face the same problems, it was just a break and any realist knows hanging around getting high solves nothing. You walk back into your life and it is all the same. The problem of an addict is that he does not want to ever walk back into his life, he wants the party to never end, and as such, the real problem is never dealt with.

Drugs have a very powerful allure, they make everything alright. If the user is not ready to face the fact that life will be the same or maybe even worse when they come down, they do not want to come down.

I have been there and I know. I have also hit rock bottom and I AM NOT going back. I know now. Intoxicants are a release, but only temporary. You simply can't do it all the time. Addicts need to be made to understand this.

I have spent days on end getting high, but I don't anymore. First of all I don't really want to get out of it, I want to be in possesion of my faculties. I also do not spend the bill money.

I know all kinds of people relative and in different positions relative to this subject. What some of them do for their addiction is scary in a way, because that could be me, many years ago. I mean people go to prison for twenty years just for trying to get money for their drug. This is ridiculous to me.

I will NEVER EVER let any substance, place, person or thing that kind of control over me. Once an addict even gets that attitude, I mean for real, he can then do a couple of lines on a Friday night, or burn one, or have a few beers. As long as he is determined to stay in control. And succeeds. When it is time to stop and go to bed, stop and go to bed. That's it.

I like having my credit cards work and my car to not only run, but have gas in it (a bigger issue than meets the eye these days). I like having electricity and gas and DSL. I like having those luxuries and therefore to maintain them I must use this little known mental tool call "self control". When I turned down those lines of coke the other day, I did so because I know how it is. It was not time. Really, last time was in January I think and the dude actually said "In about June next time". So what, I passed anyway.

I think the main point I need to make is that addiction is a symptom. Only when I learned and grew to understand myself better did the addiction stop. And I believe it is the same with others. WHY EXACTLY do you need to escape from your reality, what is it you can't stand ?

Find that out and fix it, there will be no addiction anymore. I am pretty sure of that. I have slain my monsters, beaten them. I am not saying this is easy, but this is where you need good friends with a mind, to whom you'll tell things you'd never tell a therapist. Your addiction started long ago, long before you ever found the drug, and if you would have found a different one first that would be your problem instead of what is.

I can do a hell of an intervention, but one thing must be true. If we got a crackhead, we give him a beer, that might ease things a bit, our aim is not to punish. But when they want to 'go out for a walk' the answer is NO, with me standing at the door. I mean "If you walk out this door now, you better take a good look around, because you are NEVER getting back in". And that has to stick.

See the drug use is only a symptom. I know people who are addicted to sugar, salt, blondes, even I must confess to an addiction to blue Buicks. But those are not seen the same, even though they are, except the blue Buick thing, really the guy had it for sale, it's not like i went to the ends of the Earth to get it. But it is all the same, like in Gotta keep a runnin', there's money junkies, sex junkies............and so forth.

Some people are addicted to food, eating is like a religious experience for them. But you have to eat. When addiction takes that course it is by far the hardest to deal with, because the addict really cannot stop, the self control is then essential. Drugs are alot easier, even herion is easier to break than food, because you can't quit food. You get teased EVERY DAY, as long as you let it affect you that way.

The real change comes from inside.

The people afflicted with addiction do not know how to help themselves, it is up to their friends and family to help them. Not a therapist, or some institution, REAL people to them. People who can make REAL threats to them, but those threats always involve banishment, they can go any time they want, but if they do..................

It is the only way. It is also important to know that you CANNOT change them, they must change themselves. You might not approve of the exact direction they take, but you only require that they observe the norms of society, because if they had all along there would be no problem in the first place.

There is alot more to this, but real help is out there. It is hard to find. Recidivism in addictions is at an all time high because the root causes are not addressed.

If you or someone you know is addicted, I am willing to help. I can find a slice of my time for Cmail, Email, the phone or whatever if someone is articulate and wants to open up. I think I can help, even though I got none when I went through it. It took for me to lose everything I own three times and get shot in the face with a .38 to grow up, and I don't want to see others have to go through all that.

Maybe they have to, but I think it might be worth a try.

T

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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/11/2007 11:52:31 PM   
Pandamonum


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I have done my time in hell.  My mode of operation, now, is risk/benifit.  I have no mercy for those that OD. I have sat in a room, amping and hoping the next hit takes me out, knowing the other six in the room want it just as desperately.  If you nail it, good on you. 
Now, I won't give someone a ride home because if they are carrying something I lose my car. You walk into my house and I lose my kid. You screw around and are not discreet, you cost me and everyone that works in that business their jobs?  Over your high? How selfish is that?
I do not work at this moment at a job that allows me to deal with those that I choose to associate with, I am in a transition from my type of employement to something completely different, to enjoy those that you can deal with and those you cannot.  So, I am lenient to an extent, however, I have no mercy when it comes to the rest of those that pay for someone else.  The moment you put me up for risk, you have just declared that your high is far more important.  I cannot lose what I have, which is not much, over somebody elses stuff.  I cannot do it. 

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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/11/2007 11:57:48 PM   
szobras


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Fast reply~
I have read some good and true things here, and some I disagree with. I will add that, Drugs, alcohol, and many other things are symptoms of addiction. Addiction is based in a root of self centered fear with an outlet of obsessive compulsive behavior. Physical , mental, and spiritual. An addict wants not to feel. An addict does not loose love and caring for others though it appears so, because not feeling has become priority.This is one of the internal things that can tear an addict up inside because of the pain that they feel responsible for in loved ones around them. Addiction is not a weakness. I have buried more addicts than I can count in the past 20 years because they came to the descision that they could continue to use even socially, and control the use of mind and mood altering substances, or decided they were no longer an addict, or cured. It takes willingness, acceptance, open midedness, and vigilance to continue to grow and change. Addiction wants an addict dead, and can well be content with an addicts misery for many years on the way.

< Message edited by szobras -- 6/12/2007 12:00:09 AM >

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RE: Sunday Morning Stories: Dealing with addicts - 6/12/2007 2:55:31 AM   
Aswad


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I have a few experiences in this regard.

I have a friend who was addicted for a few years, predominantly alcohol and amphetamines. He also used a lot of pot, but I'm inclined not to call that an addiction, or a problem. The main problem we experienced was that he became unreliable. He went into rehab, and hasn't touched the stuff since. He remains a good friend.

I also have an aunt who is addicted, and has been for ages. Not sure what, but I have a good idea that it's either cocaine or heroin, most likely the former. I was with her the last christmas she got to keep her child, which she knew would be the case. I have seen her walking the streets to pay for this stuff. She wasn't very close, but I don't blow her off or anything. She's never asked me for help, whether financial, a place to stay, or whatever. She's okay to talk to.

Apart from that, the bulk of the people I know who use drugs aren't addicts.

Unless, of course, you count nicotine (which I do), where most of them are about as hopelessly addicted as anyone I've ever met.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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