RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (Full Version)

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Sinergy -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/11/2007 7:31:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

So what's all this business about "re-education" camps?



I think you are thinking of Cambodia.

Vietnam had very little of that nonsense, despite what hawkish newspapers reported at the time.

They were jonesing for their Venti Lattes.

Sinergy



pollux -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/11/2007 9:48:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

So what's all this business about "re-education" camps?



I think you are thinking of Cambodia.


No, I'm pretty sure I'm not.

quote:

Vietnam had very little of that nonsense, despite what hawkish newspapers reported at the time.


Phew!  What a relief!

So what kind of nonsense was it?

That there was very little of, and reported by hawkish newspapers, I mean.



Sinergy -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/11/2007 10:15:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

So what's all this business about "re-education" camps?



Here, let me help.

quote:

ORIGINAL:pollux

So what kind of nonsense was it?

That there was very little of, and reported by hawkish newspapers, I mean.



Sinergy

p.s.  Feel free to provide any links showing the Vietnamese implemented re-education camps on a wide scale.  The country did not really have the financial wherewithall or centralized control after the war to engage in that sort of thing.  It is similar to the reported "prisoner of war" camps.  I dont recall reading any actual evidence when I studied the war which showed the Vietnamese government actually had POW camps.



Pandamonum -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/11/2007 10:49:53 PM)

  He is also Jewish.  Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust and in the last week has spoken on the next move of Israel as the beginning of the end for Israel. Last week was the 40th anniversary of the 1967 Six Day War or six hours. I have no doubt that that this is an influence.  You cannot talk about annihilation to Israel and expect no reaction from anyone. The last time someone spoke on it.....
  There are things that are not being discussed in the media, to my knowledge, and/or  in the general public dealing with Iran as a threat. To be quite honest, they have made overtures to attempt to reconcile with the United States. Specifically, giving information about the Taliban and hooking the US CIA back up to the Northern Alliance in 1997 or 1998, I think it was.   They are Persians, and extremist Shiite, and have already figured out that exporting religion is not conducive.  They are also aware of the fact that Iraqi's will not stand for continued occupation.  Period.  Iranians are a people have been isolated for so long this is nothing to them.   Thier economic position demands that they try other options.
Further, the leaders remember acutely the Iraq-Iran war. Ahmadinajad is a veteran of that war. 





pollux -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 5:55:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

So what's all this business about "re-education" camps?



Here, let me help.

quote:

ORIGINAL:pollux

So what kind of nonsense was it?

That there was very little of, and reported by hawkish newspapers, I mean.



Sinergy

p.s.  Feel free to provide any links showing the Vietnamese implemented re-education camps on a wide scale.  The country did not really have the financial wherewithall or centralized control after the war to engage in that sort of thing.  It is similar to the reported "prisoner of war" camps.


Well, without working too hard, I found a few links from notoriously hawkish newspapers Ginetta Sagan, Joan Baez, The Dart Center for Journalism & Trauma, and Doan Van Toai.

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~sdenney/Vietnam-Reeducation-Camps-1982
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-524-2706/life_society/boat_people/clip2
http://www.dartcenter.org/dartaward/2002/hm3/01.html
http://phanchautrinhdanang.com/30thang4/A%20Lament%20for%20Vietnam.htm

One of the Wikipedia entries on Vietnamese "re-education" seems to square up pretty well with other sources:

quote:

The number of inmates and death figures at the various camps are unclear due to the secrecy of the Vietnamese government. Crude estimates range from 500 000 to over 2 million inmates. Estimated death figures due to diseases, starvation, execution and working accidents range from tens of thousands to over 100 000 dead.


http://hanoi.not.free.fr/camps_de_concentration_ou_de_reeducation.htm
http://hanoi.not.free.fr/vn_goulag.jpg







stella40 -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 8:21:51 AM)

Iran is not Vietnam.

It's the only Shiite Muslim state in the world.

Bush and Blair got away with Afghanistan because of the Taliban, they got away with Iraq because of Saddam Hussein. Do I see the Muslim or Arab world falling for a third pack of lies? I doubt it.

Attacking Iran would be a bit like me walking into a biker bar and telling whoever's inside I'm going to give them a spanking.



mnottertail -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 8:33:13 AM)

well of course, Joan Baez was notoriously hawkish, I believe she used to give LBJ head.

I just checked the one source on your wiki of Joan, and not one goddamn word about re-education camps.

after that, I dismissed the rest of your arguments, even tho they might have been correct, the misuse of source so early on in the logic, simply left me flat.

Ron



SimplyMichael -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 9:47:30 AM)

The same assholes who whine about Vietnam cheer on Guantanamo.  How many did we kill in Vietnam?  How many would rather risk two decades of detention camp if they could get rid of agent orange in their country?



Sinergy -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 12:59:35 PM)

 

One of your sources from 1981 talked about the prime minister claiming to release over a million political prisoners when according to him only 50,000 were arrested.

Did you do a google search and include articles that contained the word "camp" and "Vietnam?"

It does not strike me as unreasonable to think that when the NVA brought the country back together that there were arrests, killings, etc.  They were at war.  Was it on the same level as Pol Pot?  Not from any source I read when I studied the war in college.

The problem I have with a lot of this is similar to the problem I have with the "Dont Let Them Be Forgotten" crew trying to get the United States to go back there and free our imprisoned soldiers.  Vietnam did not really have the infrastructure to support maintaining a prison system for US soldiers.  Additionally, if one were actually found to exist, the US would invade again.  Looked at from a soldier's perspective who went on 2-3 tours, fell in love with the country and the people and perhaps a woman, probably just went native and disappeared.  I have issues with us going there and forcing this person to leave the home he has found.

When people trash the government of Vietnam, I like to point out that they never wanted us there in the first place, and we dropped more bombs on Vietnam than had been dropped during every war in the history of mankind prior to it.  The Vietnamese were a lot nicer to those in the south than, say, the United States is being to the Iraqis.

Sinergy



Mercnbeth -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 3:05:58 PM)

FR -
Now they are just asking for WAR !

quote:

 TEHRAN, Iran (AP) -- Iran's parliament on Wednesday voted in favor of a bill that could lead to the death penalty for persons convicted of working in the production of pornographic movies.
With a 148-5 vote in favor and four abstentions, lawmakers present at the Wednesday session of the 290-seat parliament approved that "producers of pornographic works and main elements in their production are considered corrupter of the world and could be sentenced to punishment as corrupter of the world."
In recent years, private videotapes have increasingly been leaked to the public in Iran, riling the government and many in this conservative Islamic country, where open talk of sex is banned and considered taboo.
Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/13/iran.porn.ap/ 

 
If this law passes in Iran's Parliament perhaps we should be able to round up a battalion or two from the anti death penalty faction.



philosophy -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 3:12:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

If this law passes in Iran's Parliament perhaps we should be able to round up a battalion or two from the anti death penalty faction.


ROFL......yup, because i'm so opposed to the death penalty i'd go to Iran and shoot people until they agree? i'm afraid Merc, the only weapon you're likely to see me with is the dreaded [sarcasm][/sarcasm] bomb [:D]



Mercnbeth -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 3:16:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

If this law passes in Iran's Parliament perhaps we should be able to round up a battalion or two from the anti death penalty faction.


ROFL......yup, because i'm so opposed to the death penalty i'd go to Iran and shoot people until they agree? i'm afraid Merc, the only weapon you're likely to see me with is the dreaded [sarcasm][/sarcasm] bomb [:D]


Philo,
I'm in that kind of mood today. Glad to know you enjoyed it and received it in the spirit intended! I favor the same "bombs" although they miss the target with many. Although I must say I get sadistic pleasure from the missed targets as well.



philosophy -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 3:40:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Although I must say I get sadistic pleasure from the missed targets as well.


..agreed, possibly the only time collateral damage is funny [;)]



pollux -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 4:50:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

well of course, Joan Baez was notoriously hawkish, I believe she used to give LBJ head.

I just checked the one source on your wiki of Joan, and not one goddamn word about re-education camps.

after that, I dismissed the rest of your arguments, even tho they might have been correct, because I'm a cranky SOB who delights in being deliberately obtuse.

Ron


Fixed it for you.



pollux -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 4:53:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy



One of your sources from 1981 talked about the prime minister claiming to release over a million political prisoners when according to him only 50,000 were arrested.

Did you do a google search and include articles that contained the word "camp" and "Vietnam?"


I guess you followed the argument about as well as Ron did.

quote:

It does not strike me as unreasonable to think that when the NVA brought the country back together that there were arrests, killings, etc.  They were at war.  Was it on the same level as Pol Pot?  Not from any source I read when I studied the war in college.


First you claimed there were no re-education camps.

Then you claimed there were none "in use on a wide scale".

Now you've moved the goal posts all the way back to asking me to prove they're on the same level as Pol Pot, which I never claimed.





Vendaval -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 5:32:18 PM)

Oh the irony, Merc!  Besides, we have our own pornographers to hide in safe houses here.  [8D]
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
If this law passes in Iran's Parliament perhaps we should be able to round up a battalion or two from the anti death penalty faction.



Sinergy -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 5:35:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

FR -
Now they are just asking for WAR !

quote:

 TEHRAN, Iran (AP) -- Iran's parliament on Wednesday voted in favor of a bill that could lead to the death penalty for persons convicted of working in the production of pornographic movies.
With a 148-5 vote in favor and four abstentions, lawmakers present at the Wednesday session of the 290-seat parliament approved that "producers of pornographic works and main elements in their production are considered corrupter of the world and could be sentenced to punishment as corrupter of the world."
In recent years, private videotapes have increasingly been leaked to the public in Iran, riling the government and many in this conservative Islamic country, where open talk of sex is banned and considered taboo.
Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/13/iran.porn.ap/ 

 
If this law passes in Iran's Parliament perhaps we should be able to round up a battalion or two from the anti death penalty faction.


I still think mercy and forgiveness is the answer.

How about a rousing round of Kumbiya?

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 5:48:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

First you claimed there were no re-education camps.



I made no such claim.

What I posted was...

quote:



p.s. Vietnam had very little of that nonsense, despite what hawkish newspapers reported at the time. 



Not the strategic use of the words "very little,"  for those playing the home game this means "some, but not to a significant level."

I also posted...

quote:



the Vietnamese implemented re-education camps on a wide scale.  The country did not really have the financial wherewithall or centralized control after the war to engage in that sort of thing.  It is similar to the reported "prisoner of war" camps.



Notice the use of the words "on a wide scale" in that sentence.  For those playing the home game, this means that while they may have had some, it was not a situation where 1/2 the population below the 17th parallel was thrown in a re-education camp by the North Vietnamese when they reestablished control of Vietnam.

I seldom speak in infinitives.  I simply pointed out that I did not read about any of any significance when I got a degree on Asia since World War 2 with emphasis on the Vietnam War.

There is a difference.

I am a historian; historians seldom speak in infinitives.  It is a quick and easy way to get laughed out of Academia.

quote:



Then you claimed there were none "in use on a wide scale".



I stand by that statement.  I have not read of any from any reputable source.

quote:



Now you've moved the goal posts all the way back to asking me to prove they're on the same level as Pol Pot, which I never claimed.



Im not asking you to prove anything.  I am simply pointing out that Pol Pot killed upwards of a million of his countrymen in reeducation camps and just to move the country back to the agrarian ideal espoused by Chairman Mao and Marx.

The term for this is a "comparison" in case you are uncertain.

Sinergy

Edited for a misquote.



pollux -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 6:01:10 PM)

quote:

Camps in Vietnam
More than 1 million people were imprisoned in re-education camps after 1975, some as long as 17 years. The Aurora Foundation estimates that about 150 camps were in operation. Each circle below represents a known prison camp.


[img]http://www.dartcenter.org/dartaward/2002/hm3/images/hm3_graphic.jpg[/img]

http://www.dartcenter.org/dartaward/2002/hm3/01.html




Sinergy -> RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! (6/13/2007 6:19:14 PM)

 

An interesting web site.

Gives anecdotal claims from people living in the United States, and fails to provide any sort of bibliographical information.

You might be right, pollux.  wikipedia seems to talk a lot about it and there are a few books I want to order, like "The Vietnamese Gulag."

One way to find out...

Sinergy



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