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RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! - 6/13/2007 7:11:36 PM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy



An interesting web site.

Gives anecdotal claims from people living in the United States, and fails to provide any sort of bibliographical information.


The first link I cited is footnoted extensively:

quote:


Footnotes

1. March 1981 written reply of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam
(SRV) to Amnesty International, page 42 of Amnesty International
Report on Mission to the Socialist Republic of Vietnam, June
1981.

2. estimate mentioned by Della Denman in the Far Eastern Economic
Review, August 6, 1982

3. see annual reports issued by Amnesty International

4. p.86, Which Human Rights?, published in Hanoi, 1980

5. The translated text of this document was published in the
appendix of a report on human rights in Vietnam prepared in 1978
by Stephen Young for the New York Bar Association.

6. ibid

7. discussed in detail in issue 1 (Oct. 79) of this newsletter.

8. 6/10/75 Saigon-Gia Dinh Military Management Communique,
broadcast by Saigon Domestic Service on June, translated by the
Daily Report (Asia-Pacific) of Broadcasting Information Service
(hereafter as FBIS) on June 11, 1975.

9. 6/20/75 Saigon-Gia Dinh Military Management Communique,
translated by FBIS, 6/23/75

10. 6/11/75 Saigon-Gia Dinh Military Management translated by
FBIS, 6/12/75

11. from speech of Dr. Ninh at Amnesty International conference,
published in Amnesty Action (of AIUSA), Sept. 82

12. March 1981 written reply of SRV to AI, p. 42 of Amnesty
International Report on Mission to Socialist Republic of Vietnam

13. Nguc Tu Lao Dong Vietnam, Paris 1977, as cited by Stephen
Young in his 1978 report to New York Bar

14. p.272, Amnesty International Report 1981

15. p. 9, AI Report on Mission to SRV

16. Law on Counter-Revolutionary Crimes, Articles 9,12,15
Originally enacted by the government of North Vietnam in 1967,
this code became law for all of Vietnam after the 1976
unification and was broadcast by Hanoi Domestic Service on Oct.
16, 1979 (translated text reprinted in Issue 21 of this
newsletter).

17. The trial of Bui Dinh Ha was reported in the government
newspaper Saigon Giai Phong on June 11, 25 and 26, 1981 and by a
Hanoi radio broadcast on June 26. 1981. The reports were
translated by the Vietnam Report of the Joint Publications
Research Service (hereafter referred to as JPRS) on Sept. 4 and
10, 1981 and by the FBIS, July 10, 1981.

18. p. 196 Amnesty International Annual Report 1978

19. ibid

20. confidential interviews with former prisoners (the identities
of all the prisoners we interviewed for this report are kept
confidential)

21. Newsweek , June 26, 1978

22. p.13, AI Report on Mission to SRV

23. pp. 4 and 6, Report on the Re-education Camps and Prisons in
Vietnam, by Dermot Kinlen, June 1981

24. The indoctrination courses were described by former prisoner
Ngo Trung Trong in his unpublished manuscript, The Vietnam
Re-education Camp . Also described by former prisoner Nguyen Ngoc
Ngan in his book The Will of Heaven (Dutton, 1982), p 123, and by
the Washington Post , 4/30/78, New York Times , 8/29/78 and by
prisoners we have interviewed.

25. New York Times, 8/14/81

26. p. 42, Report of AI Mission to SRV

27. Washington Post.4/30/78

28. p.112, The Will of Heaven

29. "They Were Us, Were We Vietnamese," by Theodore Jacqueney,
Worldview April 1977

30. ibid

31. p.97, "Re-education Camps and Human Rights" by Hoang Son,
Which Human Rights?, Hanoi 1981

32. Washington Post, April 30, 1978

33. confidential interview

34. "Tu Chuong Tren Doi," poem by Nguyen Chi Thien, translated by
Nguyen Huu Hieu

35. p. 99, Which Human Rights?

36. see, for example, "A Form of Torture: Food Deprivation," by
Cao Ngoc Phuong of the Vietnamese Buddhist Peace Delegation in
Paris. This article was published in Issue 24 of this newsletter.
Ms. Phuong believes the policy of food deprivation for prisoners
began as early as 1956 in North Vietnam.

37. New York Times , 11/11/76 and 2/12/77 Worldview April 1977;
Christian Science Monitor, 5/4/77

38. confidential interviews

39. "A Form of Torture: Food Deprivation," by Cao Ngoc Phuong

40. Washington Post , 4/30/78; also based on confidential
interviews

41. confidential interviews

42. ibid

43. p. 38, Report of AI Mission to SRV

44. confidential interviews

45. confidential interviews

46. confidential interviews

47. confidential interviews

48. confidential interviews

49. pp. 137-142, The Will of Heaven

50. confidential interviews

51. confidential interviews

52. pp. 240-246, The Will of Heaven

53. p. 98, Which Human Rights? (Hanoi). It was also acknowledged
by Hoang Nguyen, editor of the Hanoi magazine Vietnam Courier,
that prisoners have been tortured, but likewise claimed that it
was not official policy to do so.(from Dermot Kinlen's June 1981
report)

54. The Times, 10/25/78

55. from speech of Dr. Ninh, Amnesty Action, 9/82

56. see for example of such a trial pp. 116-118 in The Will of
Heaven

57. from speech of Dr. Ninh, Amnesty Action, 9/82

58. New York Times, 8/14/81

59. p. 14, Report of AI Mission to SRV

60. The Oregonian, 12/6/77; The New York Times 8/14/81

61. The Oregonian, 12/6/77

62. p. 14, Report of AI Mission to SRV

63. Ibid

64. p. 81, Which Human Rights?

65. p. 716, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices , U.S.
State Department Report to Congress, Feb. 2, 1981

66. Giai Phong, 6/11/75, translated by FBIS, 6/16/75

67. Saigon Giai Phong , June 16 & 18, 1975, translated by JPRS:
67909

68. New York Times, 2/12/77

69. The Asian Wall Street Journal Weekly , Hong Kong, 6/16/80 and
6/23/80

70. confidential interviews

71. figure given to Amnesty International in Dec. also to Dermot
Kinlen in April 1980 visit

72. The Amnesty International Report 1979 s belief that the
number of political prisoners was "far higher" than the then
official figure of 50,000, and mentioned estimates by foreign
"50,000 to 80,000" (Le Monde, 4/19/78), 150,000 (Reuter from Bien
Hoa), "150,000 to 200,000" Washington Post , 12/20/78) and
"300,000 France Presse, from Hanoi, 2/12/78).

73. The 8/24/75 and 9/7/75 articles were both translated by the
Vietnam Report of the Joint Publications Research Service,
JPRS:66059 and JPRS: 66446 respectively.

74. The text of the 1976 PRG policy announcement was translated
by FBIS, June 10. 1976

75. p. 90, Which Human Rights?

76. AI Report on Mission to SRV June 1981

77. Far Eastern Economic Review, August 6. 1982

78. Article 5 of the May 25 PRGSV statement No. 02/CS-76

79. The official was Hoang Bich Son, Acting Foreign Minister of
the Socialist Republic of Vietnam, whose remarks were reported by
Dermot Kinlen in his June 1981 report.

80. p. 128, The Paris Agreement on Vietnam Fundamental Juridical
Problems , published in Hanoi, 1973


The last link I cited has an extensive (non-American) bibliography (sorry about the formatting, it's more readable in the original):

quote:

Accounts of imprisonment and reeducation, www.yale.edu/seas/bibliography/chapters/chap9.htm#discussion 
Amnesty international, Viêt-Nam les droits de l’homme, édition annuelle
Aurora Foundation. Violations of Human Rights in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. California:
Atherton, 1989, www.vietworld/Aurora/p39.html 
Bich Huyên, The trail I will never forget, Lôi cu chang sao quên
Bùi Ngoc Tân, Chuyên kê nam 2000, Thòi moi Toronto Canada 2000
Bùi-Xuân-Luong, Peter, South Vietnamese officer prisoners of war: Their resilience and acculturation
experiences in prison and in the United States, PhD, The Fielding institute, 171 pages, AAT 9963250
Buu Lich, Tâp-Trung Hoc-Tâp Cai-Tao, http://www.lmvntd.org/vndc0499/bai06.htm
Chu Quan, Hà-Thúc Sinh, Hoàng-Ngoc Thanh-Dung, Nguyên Mông Giác, Nguyên Ngoc Ngan, Nguyên

Ngoc Thuân, Nhât Tiên, Tuong Nang Tiên, Võ Hoàng+, Võ Ky Ðiên, To be made over, edited and translated by Huynh Sanh Thông, Yale council on Southeast Asia, New Haven 1988                   Nguyên Ngoc Ngan, My communist Warden and I                    Tuong Nang Tiên, Communism and Guigoz-Canism                    Vo Ky Ðiên, Brother Ten
Duong Thanh, Vuot dia-nguc
Duong Viêt Ðiên, Trai Ái-Tu và Binh-Ðiên, Thang mõ 1993
Duyên Anh Vu Mông Long†, Trai tâp-trung, Xuân thu 1988
Ðang Chi Bình, Thép den, 1, 2, 3
Ðinh Ngoc Quê Peter (father rev. CSsR), A Catholic Priest In The Communist Prison (1975 - 1988), e-book 2000, http://www.geocities.com/dnqbook/en/
Do, C.N., Vietnamese Former Detainees in the United States: Assessment of Post-Traumatic Stress

Disorder and Current Needs. MSW Thesis, California State University, Long Beach, 1992
Do Van Peter, The reeducation camp story of a U.S. resident and south vietnamese veteran : Ngo Van Diem, Review of vietnamese studies 2004-05, http://www.hmongstudies.org/PeterVanDoAReeducationCampStory.pdf
Ðoàn Van Toai, Le Goulag vietnamien, Robert Laffont Paris 1979
Denney Stephen, Human rights and daily life in Viêtnam, Report prepared for the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights, March 25, 1990, http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~sdenney/SRV-Discrimination-1990 
Denney Stephen and Sagan Ginetta, Re-education in unliberated Viêtnam : loneliness, suffering and death, the Indochina newsletter October-November 1982, http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~sdenney/Vietnam-Reeducation-Camps-1982 
Desbarats, Jacqueline, and Karl D. Jackson. "Vietnam 1975-1982: The Cruel Peace," Washington Quarterly, 8, No. 4, Fall 1985, 169-82.
Desbarats Jacqueline & Jackson Karl D., Political violence in Viêtnam, the black side of liberation, Indochina Report n° 6, Singapour 1986
Lin Lien, McInnes Keith MS, Mollica Richard F, Pham Thang, Murphy Elisabeth, Smith Fawzi Mary Christine, . The dose-effect relationships between torture and psychiatric symptoms in Vietnamese ex-political detainees and a comparison group. J Nerv Ment Dis 1998 Sep;186(9):543-53, Williams & Wilkins
Hà Thúc Sinh Pham Vinh Xuân, Ðai-hoc máu, Nhân van 1985
Hoàng Hai Thuy Duong Trong Hai, Nhung tên biêt-kich câm bút, Làng Van 2000, http://members.tripod.com/dansinh/ 
Hoàng Liên Nguyên Van Ðai, Ánh-sáng và bóng tôi, Van nghê 1990
Hoàng Minh Chinh, Thu ngo cua công-dân Hoàng Minh Chinh 27.8.1993
Huynh Ba Xuân, Oublié 23 ans dans les Goulags Viêt-Minh 1953 - 1976, L'Harmattan 2004
Huynh Van Chinh, Lê Nguyên Binh, Metzner Edward P., Trân Van Phuc, Reeducation in Postwar Vietnam : Personal Postscripts to Peace, Number Seventy-five : Texas A&M University Military
History Series, 2001, 160 pp
Kiêu Duy Vinh, http://members.tripod.com/dansinh/ 
Kotek Joël, Rigoulot Pierre, Siècle des camps : détention, concentration, extermination : cent ans de mal radical, Lattès 2000
Lê Dinh Châu, Chiên-tuyên tu-do ven sông Hông
Lê Huu Tri, Prisoner of the word (1975 - 1981) : A Memoir of the Vietnamese Reeducation Camps, Black Heron Press, Seattle 2001, 350 pp
Lin Lien, McInnes Keith MS, Mollica Richard F, Pham Thang, Murphy Elisabeth, Smith Fawzi Mary Christine, . The dose-effect relationships between torture and psychiatric symptoms in Vietnamese ex-political detainees and a comparison group. J Nerv Ment Dis 1998 Sep;186(9):543-53, Williams & Wilkins
Abstract: The purpose of this study was to determine in Vietnamese ex-political detainees newly arrived into the United States a) the prevalence of torture and psychiatric symptoms and b) the dose-effect relationships between cumulative torture experience and the psychiatric symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and major depression. The study population included Vietnamese ex-political detainees (N = 51) and a comparison group (N = 22). All respondents received culturally validated instruments with known psychometric properties including Vietnamese versions of the Hopkins Symptom Checklist-25 and the Harvard Trauma Questionnaire. The ex-political detainees, in contrast to the comparison group, had experienced more torture events (12.2 SD = 4.2 vs. 2.6 SD = 3.1) and had higher rates of PTSD (90% vs. 79%) and depression (49% vs. 15%). Dose-effect relationships between cumulative torture experience and psychiatric symptoms were positive with the PTSD subcategory of "increased arousal" revealing the strongest association. These findings provide evidence that torture is associated with psychiatric morbidity in Vietnamese refugees. The demonstration of significant dose-effect responses supports the hypothesis that torture is a major risk factor in the etiology of major depression and PTSD. The generalizability of these results to other torture survivor groups is unknown. The interaction between torture and other pre- and post-migration risk factors over time in different cultural settings still needs to be examined.
Lin L., Mollica R.F., Murphy E., Pham T., Poole C., Smith Fawzi M.C., The validity of screening for post-traumatic stress disorder and major depression among Vietnamese former political prisoners, Acta
psychiatrica scandinavica 1997 : 95 : 87 - 93
Lu Van Thanh. The Inviting Call of Wandering Souls: Memoir of an ARVN Liaison Officer to the United
States Forces in Vietnam Who Was Imprisoned in Communist Re-eduction Camps and Then Escaped. Jefferson, N.C. :McFarland, 1997
Lucien Trong, Enfer rouge mon amour, Seuil 1980
Ly Ba Hy, Mes 4584 jours de rééducation au Viêt-Nam, Anai Paris 1994
Lý Tòng Bá, Hôi-ký 25 nam khói lua
Margolin Jean-Louis, Viêtnam : les impasses d’un communisme de guerre, p 617 – 628, Robert Laffont 1997, traduit en vietnamien par Hô Van Ðông
Matson, Arthur William, III, Coping, culture, and meaning in the reeducation camp experience (Vietnam), PsyD, Antioch university / New England graduate school, 2001, 148 pages, AAT 3011870
Nguyên Chi Thiên, Hoa dia-nguc 1, 2, http://members.tripod.com/dansinh/                                 -Fleurs de l’enfer, Institut de l’Asie du Sud Est 2000                                -Flowers from Hell, Lac Viêt, Series No. 1 New Haven, CT: Yale Council on SEA Studies, 1984                                 -Hoa Lò, Fournaise, nouvelles, 2000                                 -Viêt Nam : un renouveau en trompe-l’oeil, Politique Internationale (n° 79 – printemps 1988)
- Autobiography, http://www.vietnamlit.org/nguyenchithien/autobiography.html - Deville Michel avec Béart Emmanuelle. Pour Nguyên Chi Thiên, série Ecrire contre l'oubli Against oblivion, 1991. Court métrage couleur. Durée : 03 mn 34 s

Nguyên Chi Thiêp, Trai kiên giam, Sông thu 1992
Nguyên Ðai Tuong, Nguyên Quôc Viêt, Nguyên Thiêu Chinh, Nguyên Tri Van, Pham Vinh Xuân, Red files, Fifty years of violations of Human Rights in Communist Vietnam, 1945-1995, e-book, http://www.geocities.com/suthatcsvn/index.html
Chapter II : The "northernization" of South Viêtnam, The Reeducation, The Appropriation of Private Industry and Business Enterprise, The Mass Arrest of Journalists, Writers, Artists, and Intellectuals, The Mass Arrest of Religion Dignitaries and Followers Chapter VIII : Life in reeducation camps and prisons, Statistics on Deaths at Camps, Prisons and Camps, Camp Measures, Alimentary Deficiency, Food Rations, Labor Exploitation, Health Care -- Medical Treatment, Illness, Punishment, Separate Confinement, Mental Torture, Humiliation, Deaths, Executions, Revenge on the Prisoner, Terms of Detention, Correspondence, Currency Exchange, Visits, Protest at Camp, Under the Administrative Detention, Political and Social Discrimination, Requests, Remarks, Recommendations

Nguyên Ðuc Sy, Nhung buoc chân tù (tuc Bác-si bât dac di), Chánh Trung 1989
Nguyên Ðuong Tinh Truc Cu, Tim lai di vang, tome 2 p. 241 - 317, autoédition 1999
Nguyên Huu Lê (linh-muc), Tôi phai sông, autoédition 2003
Nguyên Thanh Nga, Ðoa hông gai
Nguyên Thanh Ty, Trong lao-tù công-san, Trai Da Bàn & A.30, 2005
Nguyên Van Hùng, Vùng dât nguc tù, Thoi Luân 1988
Nguyen, W.H. Psychological Well-Being of the Former Vietnamese Political Prisoner in the United States. PhD Dissertation, The University of Texas at Arlington., 1994
Nguyên Xuân Phong, Hope and Vanquished Reality. New York: Center for a Science of Hope/Philadelphia: Xlibris, 2001. 374 pp. Observatoire International des Prisons OIP (International Prisons Watch IPW), Lyon et Paris 1997, http://www.oip.org
Pham Bá Hoa, Ðôi dòng ghi nho, Ngày nay
Pham Quang Giai, Trai cải-tạo, Houston
Pham Quoc Bao. Cum Do. California: Nguoi Viet, 1983.
Pham Trong Phúc, Phia bên kia thiên-duong, 1989
Pham Van Thành, Cuôc nôi-dây o trai A.20, Quê me 1997
Phan Lac Phuc (ky-gia Lô Rang), Ban bè gân xa, Van Nghê 2000
Phan Ngoc Khuê Trân Tri Vu, Nhung nam mât trang 1, 2, Nam A 1991                             -, Lost years : My 1,632 days in vietnamese reeducation camps. Trans. by Nguyên Phuc. Indochina Research Monograph Series of the Institute of East Asian Studies. Berkeley: University of California, 1988
Re-education camp www.vietworld/Aurora/p39.html 
Résolution n° 49 / NQ / TVQH de l'Assemblée Nationale 20-06-1961
Rhoads, William Painter, Predictors of posttraumatic symptom severity in a clinical sample of Vietnamese reeducation camp survivors, M.A. 1995, Dept Health and Medical Sciences, Country : Vietnam, Subject :Health and Medical Sciences.
Ta Chí Ðai Truong, Môt khoanh Viêt-Nam nôi dài, Thanh Van 1993
Ta Ty†, Ðáy dia nguc, Thang mõ 1986
Tauriac Michel, Viêt Nam Le dossier noir du communisme de 1945 à nos jours, Plon 2001
Thich Quang Ðô Ðang Phúc Tuê, Nhân-dinh vê nhung sai-lâm tai-hai cua Ðang Công-San Viêt-Nam dôi voi dân-tôc, Hành-trinh luu-dày, 39 bài tho tù, Quê me - Tin 1995, http://lenduong.net/article.php3?id_article=4441, www.freeviet.org, www.lmvntd.org, http://members.tripod.com/dansinh/ 
Trân Da Tu, Writers and Artists in Vietnamese Gulags, Elkhart, Ind : Century Publishing House, 1990
Trân Huynh Châu, Nhung nam cải-tạo o Bac-Viêt (?), California 1981
Trân K Them, A profile of vietnamese reeducation camp detainees in USA, Los Angeles, United vietnamese community council, 1992
Trân Thu, Tu tù tu xu-li, Van nghê 1996
Trân Trung Quân, Nguc tù lao-dông CSVN, 1978
Trân Van Thái, Trai dâm dùn, 1969
Trân V.P., Trân Vy†, Prisonnier politique au Viêt Nam 1975 – 1979, L’harmattan Paris 1990
-, Sài-gòn duoi ach Công-San thoi-ky 1979 - 1989, Hôi y-si Viêt-Nam tai Hoa-Ky 1993
Trân Xuân Ninh, Why we must investigate Hanoi's concentration re-education policies, Vài goi y nghiên-cuu vê chinh-sach cai-tao tâp-trung cua Viêt-Công, http://www.emviet.com/txd/quany/TranXuanNinh%20526-537.pdf 
Van Thanh Hoa, Máu và nuoc mat
Vietnam's holocaust, Re-education camps, Memorial wall, http://www.vietworld.com/Holocaust/Current/h400_499.htm
Vo M. Nghia, The Bamboo Gulag : Political Imprisonment in Communist Vietnam, McFarland 2004
Vu Thu Hiên, Ðêm giua ban ngày, Van nghê 1997
Young, Stephen. "The Legality of Vietnamese Re-education Camps," Harvard International Law Journal, 20, No. 3, Fall 1979, 519-38. -, The tradition of human rights in China and Vietnam (New Haven, CT: Council on Southeast Asia Studies, Yale Center for International and Area Studies, 1990).

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! - 6/13/2007 7:16:53 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
 
Thanks!

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! - 6/14/2007 5:41:14 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
<snip>
Sinergy

p.s.  Feel free to provide any links showing the Vietnamese implemented re-education camps on a wide scale.  The country did not really have the financial wherewithall or centralized control after the war to engage in that sort of thing.  It is similar to the reported "prisoner of war" camps.
<snip>
pollux
Well, without working too hard, I found a few links from notoriously hawkish newspapers Ginetta Sagan, Joan Baez, The Dart Center for Journalism & Trauma, and Doan Van Toai.

I guess you followed the argument about as well as Ron did.
<snip>

I am saying that joan baez was not notoriously hawkish, and I read the same link to joan baez that I read before you fixed it.  Nowhere does it mention re-education camps.... perhaps you could direct me to the specific sentence and also include some source that said that she used to cheer on LBJ with blowjobs----

Now,  I gotta tell you as far as I am concerned, I remember her as having a hell of a beak on her, and if that is how you are using the word hawkish...then this has been a total misunderstanding.

Otherwise, I am saying that some of your cites are a little short in shoring up your postulates, at least in my mind, pollux

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: "Smokin Joe" Lieberman: Let's Invade Iran! - 6/14/2007 8:07:07 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
 
I followed the argument, mnottertail. 

I was thanking him for the long bibliography which I can use to update my dock bag.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 44
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