sharing equipment (Full Version)

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aparootsa -> sharing equipment (6/11/2007 5:15:13 PM)

Just wondering the precautions you all take when sharing equipment at play parties. I've not yet lent (or used) mine in a situation that would lead to contact with bodily fluids, but it's bound to happen sometime. How does one clean the following so as not to share the actual nasties along with the pleasurables? Is it possible to do so without the use of a sink?

chain flogger
leather flogger
cane (thin)



Joseff -> RE: sharing equipment (6/11/2007 6:23:50 PM)

The chain flogger and cane are easy, a little bleach water solution in a spray bottle, then wipe them off with paper towels. Make sure the chain gets totally dry, or it will rust or corrode, use a hair dryer on it. The leather presents some problems. Although you could use the bleach, it can harm the leather. There are products for cleaning leather available, but I always just spray mine with Lysol disinfectant spray, then wipe them down. It doesn't seem to effect the leather, and has the added benefit of preventing mold or mildew from forming on it. (Like when it gets stuck in the back of the closet for a few days when vanilla relatives are visiting from out of town.) Hope this is usefull.
Joseff



Elegant -> RE: sharing equipment (6/11/2007 6:58:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseff

The chain flogger and cane are easy, a little bleach water solution in a spray bottle, then wipe them off with paper towels. Make sure the chain gets totally dry, or it will rust or corrode, use a hair dryer on it. The leather presents some problems. Although you could use the bleach, it can harm the leather. There are products for cleaning leather available, but I always just spray mine with Lysol disinfectant spray, then wipe them down. It doesn't seem to effect the leather, and has the added benefit of preventing mold or mildew from forming on it. (Like when it gets stuck in the back of the closet for a few days when vanilla relatives are visiting from out of town.) Hope this is usefull.
Joseff



Too often, such as this comment, one can give just enough information to be dangerous. When coupled with incorrect information the results can be deadly.

Let's take this answer one point at a time:
quote:

The chain flogger and cane are easy, a little bleach water solution in a spray bottle, then wipe them off with paper towels. Make sure the chain gets totally dry, or it will rust or corrode, use a hair dryer on it.

This is vague. The totally uninformed person might think that a teaspoon of bleach in a quart of water is sufficient. NOT TRUE. Also, wiping down is not sufficient time for all bacteria. If that were the case then hospitals, doctors and tattoo shops would have no need for autoclaves or sterilizing baths. A 10% concentration is the most often cited.

quote:

The chain flogger and cane are easy

A cane that is not seaeed by polyurethane (or similiar) could have bacteria or other nasties deep in the fibers.Surface cleaning is not always the best method.


quote:

, but I always just spray mine with Lysol disinfectant spray, then wipe them down. It doesn't seem to effect the leather, and has the added benefit of preventing mold or mildew from forming on it.

Lysol contains 79% ethanol ...bad, bad for leather. It also contains denatured alcohol...drying. Also: Kills 99.9% of Staphylococcus aureus (staph) and Kiebsiella pneumoniae (K. pneumoniae) on hard, nonporous surfaces in 30 seconds.Is leather a hard, non-pourous surface? Is the aids virus and/or Hep C of concern to you?  A direct quote from Reckitt Benckiser, Inc, manufacturers of  Lysol: Do not use on polished wood, painted surfaces, leather, rayon fabrics or acrylic plastics.

Some additional information that might prove helpful:

Antibacterial Wipes/Sprays These are made to kill staph and most bacteria on hard, nonporous surfaces. Leather is porous. Instructions on these wipes/sprays instruct to thoroughly wet the surface and allow surface to remain wet for 10 minutes before use. In addition, although some of these wipes and sprays are targeted to disinfect (when used as directed) up to 99.9% of Staph and Salmonella and also target cold and flu viruses they may not be capable of destroying other viruses. Pre-cleaning soiled surfaces is also necessary to disinfect properly, since science tells us that many types of soils will deactivate disinfectants. (Note: Informed risk when using these to supposedly sanitize and/or sterilize dungeon furniture)

Antibacterial Soaps/Detergents The products usually contains triclosan (Chloroxylenol (PCMX), Quaternary Ammonium Chlorides (Quats), or Alcohols are used in some antibacterial soaps) which can damage your leather by sucking out its moisture. Triclosan is also known as Irgasan and Microban. Dishwashing detergents contain fragrances, dyes and preservatives, all which only add unnecessary and possibly harmful substances to your leather. Dishwasing liquids are usually detergents as opposed to soaps. Soaps are made of materials found in nature. Detergents are synthetic (although some of the ingredients are natural). Detergents are made from petroleum products and consist mainly of surfactants, foaming agents and alcohols. Since these chemicals have a disagreeable odour, detergents are usually heavily scented with cheap, synthetic, artificial fragrances.


Dr. Charles Moser, a nation’s leading authorities on sexuality-related medicine recommends hanging up floggers in a ventilated place for a week after use. HIV and Hep C viruses, cannot live outside the body in the air.




LadyHeart -> RE: sharing equipment (6/12/2007 12:53:25 AM)

Don't lend equipment - simple. Someone may not intend to draw blood, but it's easy to knock the head off a pimple and then you've got blood on your flogger. Someone flicks your flogger around someone's genitals - body fluids you might not even know about. Nice that you're thinking of being generous, but you might end up sharing more than your toys. When in doubt - don't!
:))
LH



celticlord2112 -> RE: sharing equipment (6/12/2007 1:27:34 AM)

I agree.  I would never borrow someone else's gear, either.  

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHeart

Don't lend equipment - simple. Someone may not intend to draw blood, but it's easy to knock the head off a pimple and then you've got blood on your flogger. Someone flicks your flogger around someone's genitals - body fluids you might not even know about. Nice that you're thinking of being generous, but you might end up sharing more than your toys. When in doubt - don't!
:))
LH



christy111 -> RE: sharing equipment (6/12/2007 10:27:45 AM)

Hi there,it nice to hear from u again.....Anyway i will like to let you know that..Im really honesty and i am whom i am...i cheat no people...I treat people the way i wnat to be treat cos no one knows tomorrow...Christanah_jonesalonee.....By YH....Hope to chat latter with u.
Christanah



christy111 -> RE: sharing equipment (6/12/2007 10:32:53 AM)

Hi there,it nice to hear from u again.....Anyway i will like to let you know that..Im really honesty and i am whom i am...i cheat no people...I treat people the way i wnat to be treat cos no one knows tomorrow...Christanah_jonesalonee.....By YH....Hope to chat latter with u.
Christanah



MamaDomme -> RE: sharing equipment (6/12/2007 10:43:50 AM)

I never loan out any of my toys-- and if I break the skin on a sub, that toy becomes that subs property from that moment on.

I also do not borrow someone else's toys-- unless using them on that owner.

Just not a safe practice at all IMHO.



Joseff -> RE: sharing equipment (6/12/2007 8:10:34 PM)

Thanks for the correction.
Joseff



BrutalMasterOne -> RE: sharing equipment (6/13/2007 1:18:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aparootsa

Just wondering the precautions you all take when sharing equipment at play parties. I've not yet lent (or used) mine in a situation that would lead to contact with bodily fluids, but it's bound to happen sometime. How does one clean the following so as not to share the actual nasties along with the pleasurables? Is it possible to do so without the use of a sink?

chain flogger
leather flogger
cane (thin)

OMG!

Let me try to dispel some myths. First credentials, although not a Doctor I was trained and received certification as an advisor and Councilor of AIDS and STD's from the state.
 
Now onto some generalities. While there are some diseases that can be spread even after a long time of being dormant these are few and far between. As some have noted the HIV virus and most other viruses (I am tempted to say all, but never say that just as I never say never....ooops) do not survive exposure to the air. They need a host and/or proper conditions to survive. Next, it is hard for the human body to contract most diseases, and once again one should never say never, but a toy would be unlikely to spread a disease. Having said that let's look at the specifics involved here.
The chain flogger: This can be a downright brutal instrument and break the skin, deeply and/or draw blood. There are a couple of treatments that can be used to help take care of this, First a soak in Hydrogen Peroxide. This solution literally eats up organic material and so will remove most things, Follow this up with a soak in alcohol and you should be ready to go to the next victim. BTW, although I am a major sadist I actually refused to use a chain flogger a slave once gave me for the reason that if used with strength it will cause "damage." I never damage my toys!
The leather flogger: Not to worry, this kind of instrument is unlikely to break the skin. One person suggested that a pimple might be broken and/or other things could happen but the simple fact is that given the area of all the tails and the area being flogged there is little if any chance of any infection. However, just to be on the safe side, alcohol can be used to clean it off.
Finally the cane: Ah yes, one of my favorites and it can and often will draw blood. So what to do about it? Same suggestions as for the chain flogger.
 
My last comment is once again a generality. So many people here are so often over the top with their concerns that I have to wonder if they think through risk assessment at all. For example, you are much more likely to be hit by a car next time you drive then pick up an infection at a party from a borrowed toy. Do you stop driving? Worry needs to be placed where it really is important. Asses the risk and decide if it is worth it. The only way to be "safe" would be to be inside a bubble and then the bubble might collapse on you smothering you. Play wisely but play to have fun not to worry.



LadyHeart -> RE: sharing equipment (6/13/2007 5:42:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalMasterOne

 
Now onto some generalities. While there are some diseases that can be spread even after a long time of being dormant these are few and far between. As some have noted the HIV virus and most other viruses (I am tempted to say all, but never say that just as I never say never....ooops) do not survive exposure to the air. They need a host and/or proper conditions to survive. Next, it is hard for the human body to contract most diseases, and once again one should never say never, but a toy would be unlikely to spread a disease. ....My last comment is once again a generality. So many people here are so often over the top with their concerns that I have to wonder if they think through risk assessment at all. For example, you are much more likely to be hit by a car next time you drive then pick up an infection at a party from a borrowed toy. Do you stop driving? Worry needs to be placed where it really is important. Asses the risk and decide if it is worth it. The only way to be "safe" would be to be inside a bubble and then the bubble might collapse on you smothering you. Play wisely but play to have fun not to worry.


This discussion is about toy sharing in a Play Party situation, where living organisms are much more likely to survive transfer from one person to the next. If this is so "unlikely" then how is it that disease transfer happens with needle sharing, dental surgery and tattoo equipment? I note that you are a Dominant. Do your submissives share your attitude towards risk taking? Do they even have access to this information? I would agree that the risks are lowered when time passes between the use of toys, but why take an unnecessary risk, especially when it is not YOUR risk!

:))
LH



HornyToadsMI -> RE: sharing equipment (6/14/2007 10:17:57 AM)

[:'(]  EEEWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!   Glad i didn't read this one over lunch..........

Thanks for the info, one can never learn enough about safety!!!




Alumbrado -> RE: sharing equipment (6/14/2007 11:18:41 AM)

Under very limited circumstances, I am not averse to sharing some basic toys (clamps, gags, softer floggers, restraints, etc.) with certain friends, and following up sterilization via alcohol (or more) with re-treating the material so that it isn't dried out or otherwise damaged by the harsh cleaners.
Air drying is also a standard follow up.



bbw2switch -> RE: sharing equipment (6/14/2007 11:23:15 AM)

if i know a person well, then i lend.
other wise i just smile, and say "my domme doesn't allow it."



ShadowMster -> RE: sharing equipment (6/14/2007 11:56:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHeart

This discussion is about toy sharing in a Play Party situation, where living organisms are much more likely to survive transfer from one person to the next. If this is so "unlikely" then how is it that disease transfer happens with needle sharing, dental surgery and tattoo equipment?


For starters, needle play has direct contact with blood.  For a toy to cause infection, it must have blood cell contact with both parties in question.  Many of the organisms, notably HIV, die quickly out side of the body.

A whip or a flogger should never be used on open skin, but even if it is, that toy should not be shared without being cleaned.  But many other toys pose no more of a risk to infection then a simple hand shake would also cause. 

There was a Dr. years ago who took HIV active blood, and poured it over his forearm to show he would not catch the infection (and he didn't).

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHeart

I would agree that the risks are lowered when time passes between the use of toys, but why take an unnecessary risk, especially when it is not YOUR risk!



This may come as a shock, but I have unprotected sex with my spouse.  If she catchs something from a toy, then it's a safe bet to say I will quickly catch the same infection.

I think what is being missed here is a level of acceptable risk.  After all, even "safe sex" has it's risks.  The safest is no sex at all (at least from a physical, the mental aspect of no sex can be just as deadly).  If you toys are used with such force that there bloody, don't share.  If your that worried, don't play with others because the toys will often be the least of your concern.




GrizzlyBear -> RE: sharing equipment (6/14/2007 3:05:44 PM)

Depends on the degree of contamination.  Do you draw blood on a regular basis with a flogger?  How about with a cane?  Do you use these on skin that is already raw and bleeding?

There is going to be some, perhaps very small, risk of pathogen transfer with leather toys, just as there is some risk of pathogen transfer on HCW hands in a clinical setting, even when proper handwashing procedures are followed.  There is no way to completely clean any leather toy or unsealed wood toy that is heavily contaminated with blood, and if your play style is such that you are likely to use it at some point where it will again become wet with blood on bloody skin, you are doing something rather more likely to transfer infectious material.  Either retire such toys for use with only one bottom, or use toys made of something else. 

I don't seem to see many scenes involving lots of blood and leather floggers.  Or any blood and leather floggers, for that matter.  Maybe I'm just a whimp, and don't hit hard enough.  Maybe my floggers need sharpening.  If  I WANT to leave a red shirt, I will use a singletail (with replaceable popper, TYVM) or a made for the occasion hemp rope cat-o-nine that is then given to the bottom.

If I feel the need to clean a leather toy or a cane, I use the cleaner I make up for the purpose, containing isopropyl alcohol 70% and a second-generation quaternary ammonium disinfectant at double hospital strength.  I do use this on many floggers.  First I test the dye on one tail with alcohol, to see if the dye is soluble.  Some is, especially on suedes, and the alcohol will discolor it.  If the dye is not affected, I lay the flogger tails out on a towel so that all have one face fully showing,  I spray till the tails are all noticeably wet with the solution.  I let them air dry, then turn them over and spray again.  I notice only a very slight stiffness in the leather after this treatment, which disappears after a few practice strokes against the whipping post.  It certainly does not "ruin" the leather.  It's not perfect but its the best I can do.

The only bloodborne organism we really need to worry about in that situation (unless you go right from one bloody scene to another with the very same toy) is Hep B.   It is both hard to kill, and lives for many days, even weeks, in air.  Others, like HIV, either are easily killed, or die quickly in air.  Unless of course you are undertaking to flog someone with an active skin infection like MRSA staphylococcus.  Both 70% alcohol and the quats disinfectant I use are EPA rated for use on Hep B, and all the other usual suspects including staph.  True that rating is for hard surfaces.  But for trace amounts of pathogen I think it will be sufficient.

If the toys don't actually become wet with blood, whatever might be there will be on the surface and more subject to being cleaned away, or killed by disinfectants.  Tiny amounts of body fluids that make it below the surface, aren't likely to resurface in sufficient quantity to find their way into anything less than open wound. 

Note I said likely, there are no guarantees here.  We do not use sterile toys in cleanrooms, on sterile field, with all parties concerned being first bathed in Techni-care wearing sterile gloves.  I do not think we generally need to, for a flogging or a caning.

Oh, yeah, the chain flogger.  You need a sink, so go find one.  First rinse off the blood.  Soap and warm water will help.  Dunk it in bleach, diluted 9 to 1 with water, swish it around for a bit, then rinse well and dry.  If it's bead chain, forget it.  You will never get all the bleach out and it will corrode with unbelieveable speed.  You could soak it in the alcohol mix, but if its actually wetted with blood, you will never get enough inside the beads to kill off what is hiding there.  If your chain flogger has a metal handle, you could autoclave it.  (Fancy word for a pressure cooker.  $20 at Walmart.  30 minutes at 15 pounds pressure.  I use it for my piercing toys and tools that don't come already sterile.)

Some references on disinfectants and infection control, if you aren't already bored with this topic:
http://www.epa.gov/oppad001/chemregindex.htm
http://www.apic.org/  brochure on infection control http://www.apic.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Search&section=Brochures&template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentFileID=2558
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dhqp/sterile.html




LadyHeart -> RE: sharing equipment (6/14/2007 4:47:24 PM)

I have no problem with the fact that people have different standards regarding health and safety issues, but SSC hinges upon Consent. Informed consent cannot be given if the person the equipment is being used on isn't aware of the risks involved, and the standards being used by the Dominant weilding it. That's what disturbs me - when a decision is being made that may affect someone's life, that they don't even know about. I have certainly seen blood drawn by floggers, paddles and canes at Play Parties - sometimes a lot of it. I have also seen a submissive whose back has been permanently damaged by an improperly cleaned horsehair flogger. It resulted in small sores developing under the skin surface that open up every time he tries to play. That was four years ago. It still hasn't healed properly, maybe never will, so he has had to give up being flogged, and can't have anything done to his back, which he formerly enjoyed. A so called pro Domme did that to him. Each to His own, but I still think it's bad policy to share toys. It's an unnecessary risk.
:))
LH



submarriner -> RE: sharing equipment (6/14/2007 6:47:35 PM)

Some good points were made above, but clarification on some of them. Hydrogen peroxide doesn't dissolve organic material. It dissolves blood and water soluble organic material, it won't dissolve fat soluble material. Spores (bacterial pods that some harmful bacterial transform into to survive intolerable conditions in order to survive) often are fat soluble and are impervious to hydrogen peroxide or alcohol. Only when treated with high heat and pressure are spores killed (hence the need for autoclaves). If you want to maximize your safety of communicable diseases, you need to use single player toys.
Bleach solutions of 10% are designed for the HIV virus, and as mentioned above is relatively easy to kill. 10% bleach solutions will not kill bacteria, especially staph. A combination of bleach and alcohol can reduce staph infection except when spores are present.
Leather is probably best used for single player situations as it is pourous and is not easily disinfected without shortening the life of the leather. At a considerable replacement cost, leather would be best situated for that special someone.
Vinyl, silicon, glass, rubber, are non porous and are more easily disinfected. Alcohol/bleach solutions along with hot sopy water as a dilutent can clean to a 99.9% free of bacteria and viruses. I would consider these materials as a subsittute for leather (rubber floggers sting more than leather ones and are lighter in weight). In the case of glass if you have a pressure cooker, you have an autoclave. A glass dildo made of pyrex or heat tolerant glass can be cooked for 60 min on high and become sterilized with a pressure cooker. Be safe have fun



aparootsa -> RE: sharing equipment (6/26/2007 7:09:42 PM)

Some good considerations raised here, some of which I'd thought of and some of which I hadn't.  I think I'll most likely keep on sharing the chain flogger, as its falls are (obviously) non-porous.  The canes I have are not yet sealed, but I can easily treat them (or get new ones - damn, I do so hate getting new toys), and the leather I suppose will just be mine all mine.  Thanks all.



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